Questions, questions, questions.

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PrexicKehdaki -> Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 12:37:24 AM)
Alright, so. My other thread was locked due to the TOS. I consulted Kath and THIS thread MAY be ok, 'cause I won't be asserting much.. just asking questions, but we'll see how it goes. Nature of God_ Where did the specific qualities of God that allowed and allows for his values, wants, likes, dislikes, plans, design, etc... come from if he had always existed? Such as believing a certain sexual act, in his designed world, is morally wrong. Hell_ There are a wide range of possible reasons why an atheist might not believe in God. "-They're too stupid." Should atheists go to Hell because they are stupid? "-They're too arrogant." Should atheists go to Hell because they are arrogant? -They've had a traumatic event in their life that has made them lose faith in a loving god. Should atheists go to Hell because they are too weak to keep faith through hard times? -They're a fan of science and have interpreted the evidence to be a world with no need for God. Should atheists go to Hell because of their interpretation of evidence? -They don't want to be a part of the religious conflict that has plagued our world forever. Should atheists go to Hell for wanting to disassociate themselves from a large source of conflict? -They can't conjure up any love for a god that allows so much non-human-evil suffering. Should atheists go to Hell for expecting a better world from a loving god? "-It's in their nature to be rebellious of authority." Should atheists go to Hell for being rebellious of what society tells them? -They are discouraged by the fact that not all religious can be right and it's usually by sheer accident what religion you're apart of. Should atheists go to Hell for being discouraged by the number of religions? -They don't find the claims of Jesus credible when we have millions believing in the miracles of gurus even today. Should atheists go to Hell for being skeptical of supernatural claims being made by miracle workers all throughout time? There are of course many other reasons.. Reasons placed in quotations are simply reasons presented by many Christians and not by me. In what way am I denying God by not being aware he exists when first examining the evidences of all the world religions, then not psychologically "clicking" with any of it to set the belief in motion? Does this have to do more with me actively trying to deny God or me being (one of the above possible reasons)? With the above in consideration, am I also in effect actively choosing Hell, as is the common apology? Can I choose to go somewhere I wasn't aware existed? Natural disasters claim millions of lives. It is indubitable, just be sheer statistics, that many many of those lives taken had not accepted Jesus into their lives, yet, would have if given the chance to live out their lives. Christians often say natural disasters are God's way of testing our faith. Is a test of faith like this worth the damnation of millions? Is a god incapable of testing our faith without consequentially sending millions to suffer forever in Hell? In reference to Jesus_ Assuming the Gospels are accurate accounts of the life of Jesus, how does one compensate with gurus even today convincing people that they can perform many of the miracles Jesus performed? How do you reconcile that Jesus was true in his miracles while Zarathustra, Mohammed, Nanak, Siddhartha Gautama, Sathya Sai Baba, Joseph Smith, Guru Maharishi Mahest Yogi, L. Ron Hubbard, etc. were (or in some cases, are) either frauds, misguided, or didn't really exist? Eh, there are of course many more I COULD ask, but they would require asserting things. I hope this doesn't break the TOS as they are all simply questions, and I will continue in this thread with the same manner. I look forward to your answers!

Gazingstock -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 12:59:29 AM)
Firstly, you would have to be willing to consider the biblical doctrine of: Judgment Day, and "The Lake of Fire" being "The 2nd Death". A subject many believers are in disagreement about. It is a lengthy study, but in a nutshell, the word Christ uses to describe "Hell" is Gehenna. A physical location where animals dead bodies and garbage was incinerated and turned into dust and smoke in Israel. No one is promised eternal life apart from those in Christ, so no one can lay claim to it, neither would they enjoy living under God's rule forever and ever. Likewise, no one can live forever apart from God's power. The Bible clearly states there are miracle workers of other religions. Which is why we read the term: "Holy Spirit" a claim of superiority to all other spirits. These spirits sometimes perform signs and wonders in other belief systems. Also, there is the Parable of the Sower for you to consider, and the doctrine of predestination.

BibleL7 -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 1:10:05 AM)
Actually I will give you a simple answer to all your questions. God created us and all in the universe to show His glory, we sinned and were sentenced to death or separation from God for eternity. God made a way of reconciliation with man by leaving His glory above and coming down from Heaven to become a human lived a perfect life of obedience and paid the price for our sins. God created us so He has simple say of where we spend eternity. We have choice of eternity with Him or in the lake of fire, separated from Him. You were told of Him and Jesus or you would not have any of the questions you posted therefore when you die you will absolutely be without excuse as many here have also told you the Truth. The real simplicity is if you dont want to spend eternity with the one True God He will not force you to at all so He is loving. Those who chose to love and follow Him will spend eternity with Him those who chose not to wont be forced to.

PrexicKehdaki -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 1:11:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gazingstock Firstly, you would have to be willing to consider the biblical doctrine of: Judgment Day, and "The Lake of Fire" being "The 2nd Death". A subject many believers are in disagreement about. It is a lengthy study, but in a nutshell, the word Christ uses to describe "Hell" is Gehenna. A place where animals dead bodies and garbage was incinerated and turned into dust and smoke in Israel. No one is promised eternal life apart from those in Christ, so no one can lay claim to it, neither would they enjoy living under God's rule forever and ever. Also, the Bible clearly states there are miracle workers of other religions. Which is why we read the term: "Holy Spirit" a claim of superiority to all other spirits. These spirits sometimes perform signs and wonders in other belief systems. Can you use biblical scripture so that I may know what precise stances you're taking? I don't want to give you a mis-characterized reply-question.. lol quote: ORIGINAL: Gazingstock Also, there is the Parable of the Sower for you to consider, and the doctrine of predestination. Is this in response to a question or are you just enlightening me?

PrexicKehdaki -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 1:21:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BibleL7 Actually I will give you a simple answer to all your questions. God created us and all in the universe to show His glory Where did this desire come from? (refer to the questions in the Nature of God category) quote: ORIGINAL: BibleL7, we sinned and were sentenced to death or separation from God for eternity. God made a way of reconciliation with man by leaving His glory above and coming down from Heaven to become a human lived a perfect life of obedience and paid the price for our sins. God created us so He has simple say of where we spend eternity. We have choice of eternity with Him or in the lake of fire, separated from Him. You were told of Him and Jesus or you would not have any of the questions you posted therefore when you die you will absolutely be without excuse as many here have also told you the Truth. The real simplicity is if you dont want to spend eternity with the one True God He will not force you to at all so He is loving. Those who chose to love and follow Him will spend eternity with Him those who chose not to wont be forced to. I don't want to be obnoxious, but I feel part of my OP's questions address specifically this line of reasoning. " In what way am I denying God by not being aware he exists when first examining the evidences of all the world religions, then not psychologically "clicking" with any of it to set the belief in motion? Does this have to do more with me actively trying to deny God or me being (one of the above possible reasons)? With the above in consideration, am I also in effect actively choosing Hell, as is the common apology? Can I choose to go somewhere I wasn't aware existed?" Can you specifically answer these? If you already did, I apologize for not catching it. It would help me if you were more specific to each question.

BibleL7 -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 1:38:33 AM)
well you can not claim it as choosing to go somewhere you werent aware existed for you are aware of it you have been told the truth more than I ever was as an Atheist. I came to a saving knowledge of Jesus after being an Atheist over 30 years. You say you leaned all about bible and stuff before becoming an atheist therefore you are absolutely without excuse. I had excuse of never hearing the Truth till I was 37 at which time I accepted the Lord. I mean if you wish to continue to claim ignorance of truth if you wish. Your circular reasoning will not work when the day of judgement comes. Oh and as for any of the names you mentioned none of them were God incarnate none claimed to be way to heaven nor did the promise salvation.

PrexicKehdaki -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 1:55:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BibleL7 well you can not claim it as choosing to go somewhere you werent aware existed for you are aware of it you have been told the truth more than I ever was as an Atheist. I came to a saving knowledge of Jesus after being an Atheist over 30 years. You say you leaned all about bible and stuff before becoming an atheist therefore you are absolutely without excuse. I had excuse of never hearing the Truth till I was 37 at which time I accepted the Lord. I mean if you wish to continue to claim ignorance of truth if you wish. Your circular reasoning will not work when the day of judgement comes. Oh and as for any of the names you mentioned none of them were God incarnate none claimed to be way to heaven nor did the promise salvation. Is there any psychology to be told behind accepting a belief? Do you acknowledge that evidences and arguments were in broad spectrum? Meaning, my beliefs or lack of beliefs are currently a rather raw product of the evidences and arguments presented both ways? Perhaps it's a flaw in my character that I fell for the atheist arguments.. in which case.. Perhaps I'm too stupid to realize the validity of the Bible's claims. Should I go to Hell because of this? I'm 100% open to the possibility that I'm too stupid to realize the truth.

PrexicKehdaki -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:02:34 AM)
Also, Does a child brought up in a Muslim family, in a Muslim society, have less or more chance of getting into Heaven than a child brought up into a Christian family, in a Christian society?

whisperingwaters -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:08:34 AM)
The fact is you will go to hell if you do not accept belief in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. It has nothing to do with your being stupid but if you want to call yourself stupid go right ahead it doesn't bother me. And the question should you go to hell because of this yes you should. God has provided a way for you to stay out of hell and if you want to stay out all you have to do is follow that way of being saved and baptized.

PrexicKehdaki -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:13:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters The fact is you will go to hell if you do not accept belief in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. It has nothing to do with your being stupid but if you want to call yourself stupid go right ahead it doesn't bother me. And the question should you go to hell because of this yes you should. For being stupid? Just clarifying. quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters God has provided a way for you to stay out of hell and if you want to stay out all you have to do is follow that way of being saved and baptized. That is, for sure, all I have do to. If I did it, but still couldn't find anyway to believe (and I've been trying, trust me), would I go to Heaven? Is it possible to try to believe in the Bible's claims but fail?

whisperingwaters -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:28:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters The fact is you will go to hell if you do not accept belief in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. It has nothing to do with your being stupid but if you want to call yourself stupid go right ahead it doesn't bother me. And the question should you go to hell because of this yes you should. For being stupid? Just clarifying. quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters God has provided a way for you to stay out of hell and if you want to stay out all you have to do is follow that way of being saved and baptized. That is, for sure, all I have do to. If I did it, but still couldn't find anyway to believe (and I've been trying, trust me), would I go to Heaven? Is it possible to try to believe in the Bible's claims but fail? "Should you go to hell because you are stupid (Just clarifying)" If your stupidity results in your denying Christ is the Lord and Creator of all then yes you should go to hell for being stupid. I do not believe it is possible to try and believe in the truths of the bible and fail either you believe or you don't believe but it will be a sad state for you in the end after your life on this earth is over if you don't believe.

whisperingwaters -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:30:47 AM)
" That is, for sure, all I have do to. If I did it, but still couldn't find anyway to believe (and I've been trying, trust me), would I go to Heaven? " No you wouldn't go to heaven unless you have been born again.

Kath -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:31:08 AM)
quote: Perhaps I'm too stupid to realize the validity of the Bible's claims. Should I go to Hell because of this? I'm 100% open to the possibility that I'm too stupid to realize the truth. What is it you hope to accomplish by posting such inflammatory remarks?

PrexicKehdaki -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:32:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters If your stupidity results in your denying Christ is the Lord and Creator of all then yes you should go to hell for being stupid. Well, I can't possibly question that further. quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters I do not believe it is possible to try and believe in the truths of the bible and fail either you believe or you don't believe but it will be a sad state for you in the end after your life on this earth is over if you don't believe. So, belief is a simple matter of choice? Can you honestly choose to believe just anything? Can you choose to believe there is a brownie at the center of the earth (no ridicule intended) at a whim?

PrexicKehdaki -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:35:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kath quote: Perhaps I'm too stupid to realize the validity of the Bible's claims. Should I go to Hell because of this? I'm 100% open to the possibility that I'm too stupid to realize the truth. What is it you hope to accomplish by posting such inflammatory remarks? I don't think they're inflammatory. It's a serious possibility that I think deserves an answer. My hope is that people will understand simple lack of belief is not a good qualification for Hell. I hope by revealing my hopes, I haven't broken a TOS rule (if I haven't already) since you asked what they are.

whisperingwaters -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:40:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters I do not believe it is possible to try and believe in the truths of the bible and fail either you believe or you don't believe but it will be a sad state for you in the end after your life on this earth is over if you don't believe. So, belief is a simple matter of choice? Can you honestly choose to believe just anything? Can you choose to believe there is a brownie at the center of the earth (no ridicule intended) at a whim? If you can, you have a skill I've yet to master. I'm not suggesting you believe at a whim, I'd suggest that you read the bible through and pray that God gives you understanding and that the Holy Spirit will enlighten your mind. If thats not enough then there are countless historical facts that prove the bible to be true including prophecies fulfilled. To start with just the prophecies of Christ being born of a virgin and being crucified and being raised on the third day. If you can't believe these eye witness accounts then maybe you should try to believe on a whim you would be better off after all.

Ezra -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:42:53 AM)
quote: Is it possible to try to believe in the Bible's claims but fail? Not if you genuinely wish to believe. The Bible is indeed a supernatural book (the Word of God) with a supernatural message (the Gospel). The message is simple: 1. We are all sinners, and guilty before God. 2. The penalty for sin is death -- physical and eternal (the Lake of Fire) 3. God loved us even while we were sinners and sent His Son to die for our sins. 4. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and rose again for our justification. 5. God now commands all men everywhere to repent (turn from their sins -- including unbelief -- and idols and turn to God) and to obey the Gospel. 6. The Gospel proclaims that if we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as our Lord and Savior, we shall be saved by God's grace through faith. 7. When we are saved we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and the gift of eternal life.

PrexicKehdaki -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:43:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters quote: ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters I do not believe it is possible to try and believe in the truths of the bible and fail either you believe or you don't believe but it will be a sad state for you in the end after your life on this earth is over if you don't believe. So, belief is a simple matter of choice? Can you honestly choose to believe just anything? Can you choose to believe there is a brownie at the center of the earth (no ridicule intended) at a whim? If you can, you have a skill I've yet to master. I'm not suggesting you believe at a whim, I'd suggest that you read the bible through and pray that God gives you understanding and that the Holy Spirit will enlighten your mind. If thats not enough then there are countless historical facts that prove the bible to be true including prophecies fulfilled. To start with just the prophecies of Christ being born of a virgin and being crucified and being raised on the third day. If you can't believe these eye witness accounts then maybe you should try to believe on a whim you would be better off after all. If simply trying to believe in something cannot yield a failure, as you say, why are you now mentioning these tips? quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters I do not believe it is possible to try and believe in the truths of the bible and fail either you believe or you don't believe but it will be a sad state for you in the end after your life on this earth is over if you don't believe. I'm not trying to prod, just trying to understand your position. Is it possible that pursuing your advice would still yield a failure in trying to believe?

whisperingwaters -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:44:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki quote: ORIGINAL: Kath quote: Perhaps I'm too stupid to realize the validity of the Bible's claims. Should I go to Hell because of this? I'm 100% open to the possibility that I'm too stupid to realize the truth. What is it you hope to accomplish by posting such inflammatory remarks? I don't think they're inflammatory. It's a serious possibility that I think deserves an answer. My hope is that people will understand simple lack of belief is not a good qualification for Hell. I hope by revealing my hopes, I haven't broken a TOS rule (if I haven't already) since you asked what they are. But you are wrong here simple lack of belief is a good qualification for hell. The bible says narrow is the path that leads to life and few be there that find it but wide is the way to death and many be there that find it. So your lack of belief just puts you on the wide path and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

PrexicKehdaki -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:46:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters quote: ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki quote: ORIGINAL: Kath quote: Perhaps I'm too stupid to realize the validity of the Bible's claims. Should I go to Hell because of this? I'm 100% open to the possibility that I'm too stupid to realize the truth. What is it you hope to accomplish by posting such inflammatory remarks? I don't think they're inflammatory. It's a serious possibility that I think deserves an answer. My hope is that people will understand simple lack of belief is not a good qualification for Hell. I hope by revealing my hopes, I haven't broken a TOS rule (if I haven't already) since you asked what they are. But you are wrong here simple lack of belief is a good qualification for hell. The bible says narrow is the path that leads to life and few be there that find it but wide is the way to death and many be there that find it. So your lack of belief just puts you on the wide path and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I'm uncomfortable replying to this as it's replying to something I wouldn't have normally said in this thread if Kath hadn't asked (since it probably breaks a rule).

whisperingwaters -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 2:53:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki I'm not trying to prod, just trying to understand your position. Is it possible that pursuing your advice would still yield a failure in trying to believe? Pursuing my advice might not make your belief any more realistic but it would give you a better chance of avoiding an eternity of torment of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

PrexicKehdaki -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 3:01:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: Is it possible to try to believe in the Bible's claims but fail? Not if you genuinely wish to believe. The Bible is indeed a supernatural book (the Word of God) with a supernatural message (the Gospel). The message is simple: 1. We are all sinners, and guilty before God. 2. The penalty for sin is death -- physical and eternal (the Lake of Fire) 3. God loved us even while we were sinners and sent His Son to die for our sins. 4. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and rose again for our justification. 5. God now commands all men everywhere to repent (turn from their sins -- including unbelief -- and idols and turn to God) and to obey the Gospel. 6. The Gospel proclaims that if we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as our Lord and Savior, we shall be saved by God's grace through faith. 7. When we are saved we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and the gift of eternal life. I hate anecdotal evidence, so I won't bring up my own case. >_o I honestly don't know how to question the assumption that everyone that has ever genuinely wished to believe, has been yielded with belief, and everyone who genuinely wishes to believe, will be guaranteed belief. (if that's indeed what you're implying) So, congratz.. in the aspect that I can't question that any further.. you win. :P

PrexicKehdaki -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 3:02:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters quote: ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki I'm not trying to prod, just trying to understand your position. Is it possible that pursuing your advice would still yield a failure in trying to believe? Pursuing my advice might not make your belief any more realistic but it would give you a better chance of avoiding an eternity of torment of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Are you backing out of your claim: quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters I do not believe it is possible to try and believe in the truths of the bible and fail either you believe or you don't believe but it will be a sad state for you in the end after your life on this earth is over if you don't believe. ?

whisperingwaters -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 3:09:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters quote: ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki I'm not trying to prod, just trying to understand your position. Is it possible that pursuing your advice would still yield a failure in trying to believe? Pursuing my advice might not make your belief any more realistic but it would give you a better chance of avoiding an eternity of torment of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Are you backing out of your claim: quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters I do not believe it is possible to try and believe in the truths of the bible and fail either you believe or you don't believe but it will be a sad state for you in the end after your life on this earth is over if you don't believe. ? I'm not backing out of anything I said. I believe Ezra put it in a better light "Not if you genuinely wish to believe." If you are truly trying to believe then I don't think you can fail to believe its really not that complicated.

PrexicKehdaki -> RE: Questions, questions, questions. (6/29/2008 3:18:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters quote: ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters quote: ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki I'm not trying to prod, just trying to understand your position. Is it possible that pursuing your advice would still yield a failure in trying to believe? Pursuing my advice might not make your belief any more realistic but it would give you a better chance of avoiding an eternity of torment of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Are you backing out of your claim: quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters I do not believe it is possible to try and believe in the truths of the bible and fail either you believe or you don't believe but it will be a sad state for you in the end after your life on this earth is over if you don't believe. ? I'm not backing out of anything I said. I believe Ezra put it in a better light "Not if you genuinely wish to believe." If you are truly trying to believe then I don't think you can fail to believe its really not that complicated. Can the opposing arguments actually make things complicated for some? Is it possible to truly try to believe but find the arguments unconvincing?

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