The cup of demons AND the cup of God

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Mrs.X -> The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 2:19:01 AM)
There was a discussion going on in another thread about not agreeing with some doctrines in your home church. When I was reading, I thought, well isn't that kind of wrong to be a member of a church that teaches doctrines you don't believe? It's like condoning something that is wrong. You can't mix the truth with the false. I am finding myself in a tough spot because I refuse to become a member of a church that teaches false (what I believe to be false) doctrine, so I'm just drifting around back and forth between a couple churches that I sorta like (because they have nice music or good child care or something stupid like that). Should I be lenient on certain doctrines and not on others? Maybe I should try to write a prioritized list of the doctrines that are deal-breakers for me but let other ones slide? I dunno...That just seems wrong. It's like drinking from the cup of God and the cup of demons at the same time. And, you just can't do that. Disclaimer: The purpose of this thread is not debate the truth or falseness of particular doctrines or question one's belief or disbelief in certain doctrines, although the doctrines in question may be named.

rcjames -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 10:03:54 AM)
I think it would depend on the doctrine; is the doctrine salvic (necessary for obtaining and keeping salvation) or is something does not lead to or from salvation (dress codes, etc.). Which doctrines are you concerned about? Thanks RC

manda59 -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 10:25:27 AM)
We attended a Methodist Chapel for a year, after stepping away from our previous church. We loved the people there but there was no way we would have become members, because in the UK the Methodist Church believes it's ok to ordain practising homosexuals as ministers, and we couldn't agree with that. Nor with infant baptism though it was not such a big deal-breaker. We left our previous church because (as well as a number of other things) two members of the leadership mocked the gift of tongues (they were at our house, so we heard it for ourselves), and knew then that we could not stay there. I personally would not want to become a member of a church where I disagreed on major doctrine - and to me, major doctrine means that it goes against what I believe the Bible says on the matter. Is it ok to ask what kind of thing you meant?

rcjames -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 10:32:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: manda59 Is it ok to ask what kind of thing you meant? I would not even vistit a Church that ciondoned sin, and if it was their doctrine to condon sin, I probably would not drive down the street in front of the Church. My reason; I would not want my car hit by the flying bricks when that big gold thumb comes down out of the sky and squashes such an abomination. Thanks RC

Roberta_ -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 12:22:43 PM)
It would depend on what the false teachings were as to whether or not I would stay or go. Any church that condones universalism, homosexuality, adultery, fornication, abortion, euthanasia and a host of other things will never get my support.

BlessedMamaofmany -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 1:09:12 PM)
I guess it would depend for us too. Although, uf I can't fully agree with all the doctrines (minor or not), then I really couldn't become a member, since becoming a member of most churches means you agree with thier doctrines, am I right? Sandy

BerianAardvark -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 1:43:15 PM)
quote: My reason; I would not want my car hit by the flying bricks when that big gold thumb comes down out of the sky and squashes such an abomination. Yeppers, sometimes I just want to ask people to stop for a moment so I can get beyond lightning bolt blast radius. (like when someone says that want God to give them what they deserve, or justice not mercy.) Tim

Mrs.X -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 4:34:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany I guess it would depend for us too. Although, uf I can't fully agree with all the doctrines (minor or not), then I really couldn't become a member, since becoming a member of most churches means you agree with thier doctrines, am I right? Sandy I think you're right, Sandy. We are to worship in spirit and in TRUTH, and how can we do that if we are condoning the false? Maybe I'm just too nick-picky because it seems that even the so called "smaller" things get to me. Manda, the doctrine I personally am talking about is the trinity. I don't believe in the trinity, I believe Jesus and God are two separate "persons". I don't believe in the rapture, I believe believers will remain on earth and restore it to its original paradise state, that Jesus will be the king. I don't believe we go to Heaven when we die (except the 144k), I believe we are "asleep" until we all get ressurected. Idolatry of the symbol of cross, and a bunch of Catholic stuff. These are all pretty big issues I think. Some of the smaller ones include celebrating Christmas in December when I don't think Jesus was even born in December. Celebrating the ressurection of Jesus on the wrong day of the week and contaminating it's true meaning with pagan fertility idols like eggs and bunnies. The lack of headcovering for women. quote: I would not want my car hit by the flying bricks when that big gold thumb comes down out of the sky and squashes such an abomination. You crack me up, RC.

Mrs.Wifey -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 5:47:17 PM)
Well... I would say that the majority of us are drinking from the cup of the devil according to you. Quite honestly, if a church was professing anything of what you just stated I would run away screaming, those are an example of doctrinal issues with which I do not agree.

manda59 -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 5:48:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mrs.X Manda, the doctrine I personally am talking about is the trinity. I don't believe in the trinity, I believe Jesus and God are two separate "persons". I don't believe in the rapture, I believe believers will remain on earth and restore it to its original paradise state, that Jesus will be the king. I don't believe we go to Heaven when we die (except the 144k), I believe we are "asleep" until we all get ressurected. Idolatry of the symbol of cross, and a bunch of Catholic stuff. These are all pretty big issues I think. Some of the smaller ones include celebrating Christmas in December when I don't think Jesus was even born in December. Celebrating the ressurection of Jesus on the wrong day of the week and contaminating it's true meaning with pagan fertility idols like eggs and bunnies. The lack of headcovering for women. Christina, You said that this thread was not for questioning or discussing or debating individual doctrines or the belief or disbelief in said doctrines, so I won't. It's probably just as well because I really really don't know what to say. I'm not judging you, I just feel a bit, well, I don't know how I feel. Apart from anxious for you, but I had better not go there either. Could I just ask you, if that's ok, what church actually believes all those things, where you've attended before? It's just that I don't personally know of any. (I'm also curious about what you believe about the Holy Spirit - if that's off-topic, and you don't mind answering, I'd be happy to hear from you in a pm)

Mrs.Wifey -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 6:01:20 PM)
Christina, out of curiosity, have you ever been involved with The Way?

MamaMilty -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 7:18:25 PM)
Good discussion topic, as long as we keep to the original intent of your OP, Christina. [:)] I am struggling with the same issue of sorts, trying to determine what God the Father is speaking to me through His word and searching for a body of believers to worship and serve with that get the same word....I have made the following decisions: On points of who Jesus is, salvation, and believing the bible I will not budge. All other points I am taking it on a case by case basis as I come upon them. As far as worship style, I know what brings me into God's presence easily and naturally and I understand that that differs greatly from person to person and I will not make that a point of contention, ever. I must admit, your points of contention on biblical doctrine dropped my jaw....is there a place we should go to delve more into your beliefs? I would love to look at the scriptures together.

Mrs.Wifey -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 7:21:07 PM)
quote: I must admit, your points of contention on biblical doctrine dropped my jaw....is there a place we should go to delve more into your beliefs? I would love to look at the scriptures together. I would recommend the Kicka thread[;)]

phosadaud -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 7:26:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey Christina, out of curiosity, have you ever been involved with The Way? I was thinking the same thing. [&o] Mrs.X - While some of the things you listed IMHO are in my "who cares" category (ie - Scripture doesn't address them or it isn't clear that something is a command rather than a tradition), some of them are basic tenets of the Christian faith and you may find a church that teaches those things, but you won't find a Christian one. Sorry to be blunt, but yikes![:(] As far as your OP, I think we need to be careful what we put in the "doctrine" category and recognize that there are many things that Christians can disagree on that really don't matter - it boils down to personal opinion and personal conviction. When we elevate personal opinion to the point where we think anything else is from satan, we are walking a very bad road. When you read the Gospels - check how Jesus reacted to those who added to God's Law (and saying something is of the devil that the Bible doesn't say IS adding to God's law). It wasn't pretty. As far as "mixing truth with the false" - check out the NT church. There were some doctrines that Paul told people to steer clear of and having nothing to do with but every single one of those doctrines were major things that either negated Christ's sacrifice or dimissed who God is. I see nothing in Scripture that says you must agree with every little thing or you should run for the hills. In fact, in practice, the exact opposite occurred. Maybe spend some time in prayer regarding why this was true and read the letters of the NT.

ChristopherJ -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 7:29:36 PM)
quote: Could I just ask you, if that's ok, what church actually believes all those things, where you've attended before? It's just that I don't personally know of any. Those beliefs sound VERY similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses / Kingdom Hall... definitely anti-biblical and cultic, but that is not the point of this thread... In regards to finding a church that you can agree with the doctrine 100% - good luck with that. I don't think there are any two Christians in the world who agree on every single little point of doctrine, simply because of our imperfect understanding of God's holy word. However, I also believe that there must be agreement on certain essential, basic Christian doctrines - such as salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, the deity of Christ, the inspiration of the Scriptures, etc. I personally hold to Augustine's creed, and find it to be a good guide: In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity (Christian love). In other words, we must all have unity and agree on the essentials, but agree to disagree on the non-essentials. The trick of course then becomes... what is essential? :)

manda59 -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 7:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: phosadaud quote: ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey Christina, out of curiosity, have you ever been involved with The Way? I was thinking the same thing. [&o] And me. [8\|]

Ps103 -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 7:40:38 PM)
quote: I am finding myself in a tough spot because I refuse to become a member of a church that teaches false (what I believe to be false) doctrine, How do you determine this?

cybrjewls -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 10:09:04 PM)
Greetings Mrs.X! I would venture to say that many congregations ascribe to certain erroneous beliefs regarding the teachings of Revelation and Daniel. This, usually, is not a point of departure between discerning Sound Doctrinal precepts some have proposed. The same, will sometimes point out the 'deceptive' teachings of other groups, thus fulfilling The Word spoken by Jesus to not Judge unless they would be held to the same as they Judged others by. I believe that it is for the believers to approve of, and assert the true doctrine and accentuate the positive in holding on to what is Good as The Apostle has written. For the spiritual ones are not subject to any other persons Judgment for they will stand or fall to The Master to whom they serve. Knowledge puffs up, but love is the fulfillment of The Law and Commandment of God Most High. The purpose of faith is unto fruits as evidenced in that God works through the people (for The Kingdom is among Us) the Good that will remain standing the testing by fire of the Holy Accounting at The Day of Judgment (decisions rendered in The Holy Court above). For God will bring all things into Judgment (His decisions in His court) whether they be Good or evil. We will all stand before God unto Whom we must give account. A house built on sand will wash away when trouble happens, a house built on the rock will withstand the testing sent by God. Each man should be careful how he or she builds their house for the reckoning of The God Almighty can ignore precious stones and stubble in favor of meekness, temperance, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, and faith. quote: ORIGINAL: Mrs.X There was a discussion going on in another thread about not agreeing with some doctrines in your home church. When I was reading, I thought, well isn't that kind of wrong to be a member of a church that teaches doctrines you don't believe? It's like condoning something that is wrong. You can't mix the truth with the false. I am finding myself in a tough spot because I refuse to become a member of a church that teaches false (what I believe to be false) doctrine, so I'm just drifting around back and forth between a couple churches that I sorta like (because they have nice music or good child care or something stupid like that). Should I be lenient on certain doctrines and not on others? Maybe I should try to write a prioritized list of the doctrines that are deal-breakers for me but let other ones slide? I dunno...That just seems wrong. It's like drinking from the cup of God and the cup of demons at the same time. And, you just can't do that. Disclaimer: The purpose of this thread is not debate the truth or falseness of particular doctrines or question one's belief or disbelief in certain doctrines, although the doctrines in question may be named.

Mrs.X -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 11:20:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mrs. Wifey Well... I would say that the majority of us are drinking from the cup of the devil according to you. Who am I to judge what cup you're drinking from. The topic of this thread is not what cup I think you're drinking from. It's a good thing God knows our heart and he can determine if we seek the truth or if we sit blindly in a pew following some possibly biased endoctrinated guy behind a pulpit because it's comfortable to do so. I'm toally not saying you do that Ryanne, I don't know you that well. But, isn't that just like sinful humans to do that? Just sit and listen and go along with what a pastor said because he is a pastor and it's easy. quote: ORIGINAL: manda59 Could I just ask you, if that's ok, what church actually believes all those things, where you've attended before? It's just that I don't personally know of any. (I'm also curious about what you believe about the Holy Spirit - if that's off-topic, and you don't mind answering, I'd be happy to hear from you in a pm) I haven't found a church that believes all that, Manda. That's why I feel so alone. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe some of that, but they have some doctrines I haven't studied yet, but am erring on the side of no. I was raised Catholic and started attending trinitarian non-denom churches as a teen, except one I forgot what they were called, but everyone spoke in tongues and they believed you'd go to hell if you forgot to confess every sin. Trinitarian non-denom or foursquare is where I've mostly been in my adult life. It wasn't until a year and half ago I started questioning doctrines and started studying myself. On the topic of the Holy Spirit...I haven't gotten there yet. It's on my list, but I haven't studied enough about it to make a decision. On the question about The Way...I hadn't heard of them until I looked them up on Wiki a few minutes ago after reading your post, Ryanne. They blieve alot of the same stuff, but some of the doctrine is, well I don't even have to look into it to come to a conclusion. quote: ORIGINAL: phosadaud As far as your OP, I think we need to be careful what we put in the "doctrine" category and recognize that there are many things that Christians can disagree on that really don't matter - it boils down to personal opinion and personal conviction. When we elevate personal opinion to the point where we think anything else is from satan, we are walking a very bad road. When you read the Gospels - check how Jesus reacted to those who added to God's Law (and saying something is of the devil that the Bible doesn't say IS adding to God's law). It wasn't pretty. You may be right. I hadn't thought of it like that, there being a difference between commands & personal conviction and doctrine & opinion. I'm about to try to get my littlest one to sleep, and hopefully he'll stay asleep long enough to respond to the other posts. If not, I'll try to reply in the morning when the kiddos are eating breakfast.

Mrs.Wifey -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/29/2008 11:38:45 PM)
quote: It's a good thing God knows our heart and he can determine if we seek the truth or if we sit blindly in a pew following some possibly biased endoctrinated guy behind a pulpit because it's comfortable to do so. I'm toally not saying you do that Ryanne, I don't know you that well. But, isn't that just like sinful humans to do that? Just sit and listen and go along with what a pastor said because he is a pastor and it's easy. No, I was raised to question just about everything that comes out of a pastor's mouth. I have sat under the teaching of false doctrine and know to when raise that flag. I have also studied, in depth, the scripture and the hebrew/greek when I need a better understanding of things. Did you know that several of the Hebrew names for God are used in a plural sense?

manda59 -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/30/2008 3:36:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mrs.X It's a good thing God knows our heart and he can determine if we seek the truth or if we sit blindly in a pew following some possibly biased endoctrinated guy behind a pulpit because it's comfortable to do so. I'm toally not saying you do that Ryanne, I don't know you that well. But, isn't that just like sinful humans to do that? Just sit and listen and go along with what a pastor said because he is a pastor and it's easy. I became a Christian at 17 through the work of a free evangelical church who didn't even have any pastors, just elders and deacons. They regarded themselves as servants, servants of God AND servants of us, and were humble men. I remember one in particular saying from the front on more than one occasion "Don't just automatically accept anything I say just because it's me. Take it before God, check the references, think about things, question them - and then if you think I'm wrong, come and tell me and we'll talk about it". It was a very healthy approach and it's stayed with me all my life no matter which church I've been to. quote: I haven't found a church that believes all that, Manda. That's why I feel so alone. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe some of that, but they have some doctrines I haven't studied yet, but am erring on the side of no....... It wasn't until a year and half ago I started questioning doctrines and started studying myself. Did something happen a year and a half ago to spark your interest? Do you have a friend who is a Witness, or have you perhaps been visited by one? When you say you've been studying, could I just ask what you've been looking at? Is it just JW teachings or is there something else? I'm just curious as to what you've been using for your source(s) of reference.

manda59 -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/30/2008 4:50:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mrs.X Manda, the doctrine I personally am talking about is the trinity. I don't believe in the trinity, I believe Jesus and God are two separate "persons". By the way, people who believe in the Trinity believe that God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit are three separate persons. All God, but God in three persons. Are you meaning that you don't believe in the deity of Christ? I'm not intending to question your actual belief, just wanted to clarify what it is (if that's ok).

Kat_D -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/30/2008 7:10:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ quote: Could I just ask you, if that's ok, what church actually believes all those things, where you've attended before? It's just that I don't personally know of any. Those beliefs sound VERY similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses / Kingdom Hall... definitely anti-biblical and cultic, but that is not the point of this thread... In regards to finding a church that you can agree with the doctrine 100% - good luck with that. I don't think there are any two Christians in the world who agree on every single little point of doctrine, simply because of our imperfect understanding of God's holy word. However, I also believe that there must be agreement on certain essential, basic Christian doctrines - such as salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, the deity of Christ, the inspiration of the Scriptures, etc. I personally hold to Augustine's creed, and find it to be a good guide: In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity (Christian love). In other words, we must all have unity and agree on the essentials, but agree to disagree on the non-essentials. The trick of course then becomes... what is essential? :) I hope you know that one of the most important essentials of the Christian faith is the Trinity. While the Bible does not mention the word "Trinity." the doctrine of the Trinity is biblical. ONE GOD - THREE PERSONS ONE GOD - Deut 4:35; 6:4; Isa 43:10; 1 Tim 2:5. The FATHER is GOD - John 17:1-3; 1Cor 8:6; 2Cor 1:3; Gal 1:1; Phil 2:11; Col 1:3; 1Peter 1:2. The SON is GOD - Isa 9:6; John 1:1-18; 5:18; 8:58; 20:28; Rom 9:5; Col 2:9; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:8-12; 2Peter 1:1. The HOLY SPIRIT is GOD - Acts 5:3-4; 2Cor 3:17-18. Implied in - Mark 3:29; John 15:26; 1Cor 6:19-20; Heb 9:14. "Spirit of God" - Gen 1:2; Gen 31:3; Num 24:2; 1Sam 19:20; 2Chr 24:20; Job 27:3; Isa 61:1; Ezek 11:24; Matt 3:16;12:28; John 4:24; Rom 8:14; 1Cor 7:40; Eph 4:30. Now, I'm wondering if Christina could provide Scriptural support for her belief that there is no doctrine of the Trinity found in the Bible.

Mrs.X -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/30/2008 12:01:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MamaMilty Good discussion topic, as long as we keep to the original intent of your OP, Christina. [:)] I am struggling with the same issue of sorts, trying to determine what God the Father is speaking to me through His word and searching for a body of believers to worship and serve with that get the same word....I have made the following decisions: On points of who Jesus is, salvation, and believing the bible I will not budge. All other points I am taking it on a case by case basis as I come upon them. As far as worship style, I know what brings me into God's presence easily and naturally and I understand that that differs greatly from person to person and I will not make that a point of contention, ever. I must admit, your points of contention on biblical doctrine dropped my jaw....is there a place we should go to delve more into your beliefs? I would love to look at the scriptures together. Thanks, Jen. Yeah, that's what I struggle with too. What does he want me to know, what does this or that mean in reference to this or that. The Bible is so complex, especially when you don't know Greek and Hebrew! I'm still on the fence with so many things, and even the things I posted above, I'm not 100%. Yeah, I didn't want to drop any jaws. But, I kinda figured I would. I'm really not in any place to teach. What if I'm wrong, and I put those ideas in others' heads? I don't want to be responsible for that. Ryanne, I will not be debating this topic in the Kicka thread. I'm not a very good debater in the first place, and I imagine it would be worse if it was only me VS all the women on Crosswalk. I'm sure most of you won't budge, so what's the point if your ears won't be open anyway? quote: ORIGINAL: Manda "Don't just automatically accept anything I say just because it's me. Take it before God, check the references, think about things, question them - and then if you think I'm wrong, come and tell me and we'll talk about it". I totally admire people like that. quote: Did something happen a year and a half ago to spark your interest? Do you have a friend who is a Witness, or have you perhaps been visited by one? Christian talk radio. This is kind of silly, but prior to studying (except the milk devotionals I get in my inbox) I used to think there were two kinds of Christians--Catholics and Us. I didn't know the differences between Baptist, Methodist, etc. I thought we were all the same, and believed in the same things, but had slightly difference styles of worship. It wasn't until I listened to Christian talk radio for hours on end when I realized, there were important doctrinal differences. One guy says "It's OK to get married after you divorced because God is merciful, etc." and then the next hour another guy would say that you have to wait until your first husband dies. I was kind of blown away. After that, one of JWs came to my door, and I asked her what the difference is between Us and Them. She said the trinity was the biggest difference. It was a fairly short visit. So I started looking stuff up on the internet (alot on Wiki) at first to both sides of the story and wrote down some scriptures. Then I went to library and started using their Strong's concordance and another thing I forgot the name of...It was another Greek lexicon. And, I found a Hebrew one to look up some OT. quote: Are you meaning that you don't believe in the deity of Christ? Yes, ma'am. I don't believe Jesus is God. quote: ORIGINAL: Kat D Now, I'm wondering if Christina could provide Scriptural support for her belief that there is no doctrine of the Trinity found in the Bible. That is not the topic of this thread in case you missed my disclaimer in the OP. But, I did jot down on your scripture references. quote: ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ Those beliefs sound VERY similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses / Kingdom Hall... definitely anti-biblical and cultic, but that is not the point of this thread... That's right, that is NOT the topic of this thread. quote: In regards to finding a church that you can agree with the doctrine 100% - good luck with that. I don't think there are any two Christians in the world who agree on every single little point of doctrine, simply because of our imperfect understanding of God's holy word. However, I also believe that there must be agreement on certain essential, basic Christian doctrines - such as salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, the deity of Christ, the inspiration of the Scriptures, etc. I personally hold to Augustine's creed, and find it to be a good guide: In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity (Christian love). In other words, we must all have unity and agree on the essentials, but agree to disagree on the non-essentials. The trick of course then becomes... what is essential? :) That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I suppose you're right about two Christians not agreeing 100%. I like that In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity (Christian love).

manda59 -> RE: The cup of demons AND the cup of God (6/30/2008 12:31:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mrs.X Yes, ma'am. I don't believe Jesus is God. Christina, If Jesus is not God, then there can be no resurrection, no salvation, basically no hope. Can I just ask you who you believe He is then, if not God? If you'd rather talk by pm, that's fine by me. I don't want you to feel under pressure, but I am concerned for you (sorry, I can't help it). I'd also be interested in knowing what led to you to doubt His deity.

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