Honor thy father and mother? (Full Version)

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woodsandfield -> Honor thy father and mother? (6/29/2008 9:09:50 AM)

Greetings!
I read the q & answers on the forgiveness question and now here's another complex question.
I would prefer input from Christian adult child of an abusive parent, with no hope of the relationship getting any better.
In practical, everyday terms, what exactly does " honor thy mother and
father translate to?
Another words, timely cards, letters and phone calls?
Are gifts expected?
Just how much do I owe a parent that has not liked me and shown it all her life?
Please be specific; birthday cards? Gifts? prayers for?
How do I cope with bitterness or explaining our difficult relationship with
my family loved ones without gossiping?
See. extremely hard question!



BerianAardvark -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (6/29/2008 9:49:08 AM)

Honoring isn't about things you do because you have to, it is an attitude and that attitude suggests things that we could/should do.

It is very much like the obeying God....if we do it because we HAVE to, that isn't honoring Him...if we do it becasue we love and respect Him, it is as it is an out flow and result of that love.

A very wise person once defined "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" in this manner:

Treat others with the same respect, consideration, compassion, understanding, love and forgiveness when they mess up as you would like for them to treat you if it had been you messing up.

This has application in forgiveness and in honoring your parents.

It isn't always possible to take a damaged parent child relationship and make it as it could/should have been, but don't allow bitterness to set in and contaminate your life and that of those around you.

Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; (Hebrews 12:14-15)

Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. (Romans 12:17-18)

You can honor your parents for whatever they did that was right (they had to have done at least one or two things right) even knowing how much and how badly they messed up in the other areas, and forgive them even though you realize that you may never be able to trust them or even be close to them (physically or emotionally). That is for your healing, so that you can grow without bitterness.

Part of that honoring your parents would be praying for them. If you see a card or do-dad that makes you smile and seems like something that they would like, no law against sending it to them, might even be fun.

I know this isn't the sort of answer you wanted or expected, but your question seemed aimed at the externals, and to God the externals are never important...but the condition of the heart:

"The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. (Luke 6:45)

That carries over into our relationships with others...including parents.

Tim



woodsandfield -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (6/29/2008 10:27:12 AM)

Thank you BerianAardvark for your thoughtful answer.
However, it wasn't exactly what I asked.
Did I say that I struggle nearly daily with emotions which I don't want to have, ie, forgiveness, bitterness?
I think I did mention that.
We ALL, without exception struggle with emotions that aren't perfect, that is the human condition.
If we were perfect, we wouldn't need to struggle.
If we read the new and old testament, we will see that even the apostles and prophets struggled with less then perfect emotions and feelings.
Many times we must struggle with people that harm us or have done us harm, ie; enemies, etc.
And the perfect solution is distance and no contact. ( flight )
But as a Christian, often we need to realize that even though someone has done us harm, we must keep in mind that they are also God's child
( in a general sense ) and that God reaches out to them and wishes for them to repent for their sins and be saved.
All of what you said was interesting but did not answer the practical questions of what " works " goes in to honoring a parent.
I wondered if anyone had also struggled with this and had come up with any suggestions.
And by the way, if we all waited to have the correct feelings before we acted, very little would get done!



rcjames -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (6/29/2008 10:48:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: woodsandfield

Greetings!
I read the q & answers on the forgiveness question and now here's another complex question.
I would prefer input from Christian adult child of an abusive parent, with no hope of the relationship getting any better.
In practical, everyday terms, what exactly does " honor thy mother and
father translate to?
Another words, timely cards, letters and phone calls?
Are gifts expected?
Just how much do I owe a parent that has not liked me and shown it all her life?
Please be specific; birthday cards? Gifts? prayers for?
How do I cope with bitterness or explaining our difficult relationship with
my family loved ones without gossiping?
See. extremely hard question!


My wife was sexually abused for a numer of years by her grandfather and two other male relatives, pentatrating intercourse and forced sodomy from around age 5 to age 9.

When she became a Christian in her mid 20's she was really confused about this same thing. When she matured to the point of forgiving them completely it all fell into perspective and she truly honored her mother (who knew of the abuse, but did not help). When her mother died she had been saved. The actual abusers died before my wife was able to do this, but she sincerely forgave them from her heart.

The Scripture that led my wilfe down the path to doing this is;

(Mar 11:26) But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Her relationship with God was the most improtant thing in her life, and the thought of that relationship being hampered by her own forgiveness gaver ther the strngth and courage to truly forgive all who had harmed her.

One cannot honor those to whom we harbor resentment and unforgiveness towards. Forgiveness must come first.

Thsnks
RC



woodsandfield -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (6/29/2008 11:40:05 AM)

How did the forgiveness to the living parent manifest its-self?
For instance
I take it your wife had an ongoing relationship with her mother, in which
they socialized together?
Would she considered it " unforgiveness " if she had decided not to have a relationship with her?
Did she discuss the sexual abuse with her mother and did the mother admit that she could and should have helped prevent or stop the abuse?
If the mother admitted to doing nothing wrong or even that the abuse did not take place, then forgiveness would between your wife and God.
When a person doesn't even admit to any wrongdoing, it is best to not to go to them and say that one is forgiven.
A couple points I'd like to bring up.
On the cross, Jesus said forgive them they know not what they do.
If forgiveness was unconditional then Jesus wouldn't have added that they knew not what they did-so forgive them.
Second, when asked how many times one must forgive someone, every time they ask for forgiveness it must be given.
If forgiveness is demanded and always unconditional then why are these two illustrations of forgiveness given?
My belief is that forgiveness is conditional .
But as a Christian, I seek to forgive and am in the state of forgiving
trespassers.


My wife was sexually abused for a numer of years by her grandfather and two other male relatives, pentatrating intercourse and forced sodomy from around age 5 to age 9.

When she became a Christian in her mid 20's she was really confused about this same thing. When she matured to the point of forgiving them completely it all fell into perspective and she truly honored her mother (who knew of the abuse, but did not help). When her mother died she had been saved. The actual abusers died before my wife was able to do this, but she sincerely forgave them from her heart.

The Scripture that led my wilfe down the path to doing this is;

(Mar 11:26) But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Her relationship with God was the most improtant thing in her life, and the thought of that relationship being hampered by her own forgiveness gaver ther the strngth and courage to truly forgive all who had harmed her.

One cannot honor those to whom we harbor resentment and unforgiveness towards. Forgiveness must come first.

Thsnks
RC
[/quote]



BerianAardvark -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (6/29/2008 1:35:26 PM)

Honoring your parents is not a list of things to do type thing it is an attitude and heart.

Forgiveness always costs, not the person being forgiven, but the one doing the forgiving.
It cost God the life of His Son on the cross to forgive mine.

There is a book "The Freedom to Love and Live Again" by David Ritzenthaler (Morris Publishing), it is compiled form more than twenty years of counseling abused people. Ritzenhaler is with VCL International, a Christian group

Some of the cases are pretty raw and ugly, but then abuse is a raw and ugly thing. Yet in each case the person was able to resolve and move past to forgive (though not always reconcile with) the abuser.

Perhaps you can find some insight there.

Tim



Bluethread -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (6/30/2008 2:31:42 AM)

Mr 7:11 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God).

Yeshua's words here show us that we are to see that ones parents are taken care of. This even means that we should not forgo providing for them for the sake of "ministry". I generally believe one should respect their right to that over which they have authority. For those whos parents are less than honorable, providing for them is helping them deal with their short comings.

If ones parents are drunkards one would respectfully insist that they not drink when one is present. Then that one would make a point of being present as much as possible.

In the case were ones parents short comings cross the line into sociopathic behavior, I would propose that they be removed from society. Not out of anger or malice, but out of a concern for their well being. This is a hard saying, but it does the pedophile no good to permit them asccess to children. It is also, honoring to be moral support for ones parent as they endure the natural consequences of their actions. Not that one would remove or mitigate those consequences, but that one would help such an one endure the consequences and learn from them.



woodsandfield -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (6/30/2008 11:31:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

Mr 7:11 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God).

Yeshua's words here show us that we are to see that ones parents are taken care of. This even means that we should not forgo providing for them for the sake of "ministry". I generally believe one should respect their right to that over which they have authority. For those whos parents are less than honorable, providing for them is helping them deal with their short comings.

If ones parents are drunkards one would respectfully insist that they not drink when one is present. Then that one would make a point of being present as much as possible.

In the case were ones parents short comings cross the line into sociopathic behavior, I would propose that they be removed from society. Not out of anger or malice, but out of a concern for their well being. This is a hard saying, but it does the pedophile no good to permit them asccess to children. It is also, honoring to be moral support for ones parent as they endure the natural consequences of their actions. Not that one would remove or mitigate those consequences, but that one would help such an one endure the consequences and learn from them.


None of the answers from anyone really got me where I wanted to go with my question, sooo... perhaps I should have put it in the relationship forum.
But I would like to say Bluethread that most abusive parents are the kind of people where distance from then is the best love you can give them.
It's called " tough love ".
It is definitely allowed in the Bible, for example, when Apostle Paul delivered a church member up to the devil to be punished, it was in mind
that the member would repent and then be reestablished in the community.
It is my understanding that forgiveness is between God and the offended, if the offender does not ask for forgiveness.
I am not even sure forgiveness is demanded since we are to forgive an offender when he asks for forgiveness.
If that stipulation wasn't important, it wouldn't have been added and it was said by Jesus.
Jesus also said forgive them they know not what they do.
It seems logical to assume that forgiveness is not automatic.



Kath -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (6/30/2008 12:02:43 PM)

Moving from The Bible to Relationships



TrustingGod -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (6/30/2008 8:18:36 PM)

I didn't have abusive parents but I was sexually abused by my brother (my parents knew). I've forgiven him and can have a relationship with him. But only through God's grace.

Forgiveness is not for the sake of the unrepentant one but for you. My brother never asked for forgiveness nor admitted that he did anything wrong. I chose to forgive him for me - so I could move forward in my life. Forgiving someone is treating a person as if the offense did not occur. God forgives us and loves us as if we never failed Him - even though our actions deserve death. That is the level of forgiveness we need to strive for. It is certainly not easy.

When Jesus was on the cross, He said forgive them for they know not what they do. I always understood this to mean that they did not know they were killing the very Son of God. They were simply doing their job. Jesus had compassion on them out of His own love for them (as He loves all mankind) not because they deserved mercy (or forgiveness).

Honoring your parents who are abusive - tough situation. I believe you have to forgive them in your heart (whether you need to go to them or not is between you and God). You have to pray through this and allow God to instruct you. As far as what actions you need to do - again, that is up to you to determine with God's direction. It is not the actions that God is looking at but at the condition of your heart.

If you cannot forgive, your Father cannot forgive you.



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/1/2008 1:53:54 AM)

Woodsandfield,
Honoring mother and father is a complex issue partially because there could be a number of reasons why we feel that our parents do not deserve, or should be honored.

Of course, abuse may be a very real apparent and prevalent reason. There us also: neglect, indifference and disatisfaction.

Forgiveness may be part of the answer, but I do not feel that it may be the one and only answer.

My mother struggled with the issue most of her life largely because she had a love-hate relationship with her parents, especially her father. She loved her parents because they were her parents. She grew to hate them, though, because she felt that they were not open and honest with her on a number of levels, for a number of reasons. As a result she felt more of an obligation to them than any kind of real love.

I hesitate to be specific because this is not the first time I have addressed this issue in CW. I am addressing it now because I have come to realize that it is an issue that I have to deal with to some extent as well. To some extent the issue has been a generational curse, and the basis on which I tend to relate and interact with others.

All my life I have felt that I have had to question the motives for which I say and do things (I still struggle with it to some extent. I also see it in our adopted daughter). Do I do and say things because I feel compelled to, because I know it is what others want me to say or do; or do I say and do things out of love regardless what the other person expects me to say or do.

I know what I have said sounds like a stretch but it seems to me that the use of the word Honor I the Bible indicates that we are to honor everyone: our parents, our family members, our elders, and our leaders.

Though I tend to agree that forgiveness is part of the answer, I believe that the answer lies in our attitude toward others, ourselves, and our ability to, not only be honest, but set boundaries with our loved ones.

I have always been quick to forgive my parents and grandparents for the way their actions and words affected my life. This is because I have always had the idea that they were just doing what they felt was right. It is also because I had the idea that I had some responsibility in how their actions and words affected me and my decisons.

Some say that the hardest person to forgive is yourself.



savedbylove112 -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/1/2008 12:30:04 PM)

I'm reading this thread with great interest, not because I have been physically abused by anyone in my family, but because I feel I am currently being verbally and mentally abused by my mom as her health gets worse. It's a shame, and I'm struggling really hard to NOT "repay evil for evil", but she just doesn't see that she's doing anything wrong. I'm having a super-hard time forgiving her, and I know a huge part of that is the fact that no matter what she says or does to me, no matter how hurtful it may be, she will NEVER admit wrong-doing, and I have to "get over it." I wish to God I could move out and save my sanity, and I'm getting so tired of "taking it" from her. I keep coming back here, because everyone in the "real world" who knows us--without exception--thinks she walks on water, and for me to bad-mouth her "after all she's done for me" or "after all she's been through" would be met with hostility and defense for her at all costs. I have no one to hear my side--except here.



deermousie -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/1/2008 1:53:31 PM)

My situation with my mother was similar, Savedbylove - my father was physically, psychologically and verbally abusive and my mother would then tell me it never happened. She said we were all happy and loved each other (wrong on both counts) and that if I ever disagreed with her she would disown me. I hear ya.

In Hebrew, the word that is translated honor means "to weigh or give serious consideration to." We listen to our parents and then weigh what they say and what they do. You see that your mother is hurtful (opposite of love in the Bible, where we do things for the loved one's benefit) and it looks like she's dishonest. Is that right?


quote:

ORIGINAL: savedbylove112
I'm struggling really hard to NOT "repay evil for evil", but she just doesn't see that she's doing anything wrong.


This is the principle of good overcoming evil, and you're doing it. By God's grace, keep it up. I find it hard to keep my balance when I'm being barraged with hurt and lies, and have to rely of the Bible to tell me what's real and what's wrong. It's a big help to tell the truth, both to yourself and to your mother. I run the verses through my mind that deal with the situation, and hang on to them for dear life. It may be helpful to tell the truth to your mother; she may dispute you or may get mad - that's her choice. It could balance her or at least keep her from being rewarded for her hurtfulness and dishonesty and show you aren't buying what she is "selling."

quote:

I'm having a super-hard time forgiving her, and I know a huge part of that is the fact that no matter what she says or does to me, no matter how hurtful it may be, she will NEVER admit wrong-doing, and I have to "get over it."


Is your mother my mother's twin? I'm really sorry you have to live with this. God is allowing it for His good reasons, so hang on to Him and figure out what He wants you to do and learn.

quote:

I wish to God I could move out and save my sanity, and I'm getting so tired of "taking it" from her.


And you are *my* twin. It went on until my mother disowned me (for telling her she put my kid's life in danger. She had told me she'd do whatever she wanted and I had no say. How sick is that?).

Keep telling yourself the truth, and frankly, I'd tell it to her, too. She might get tired of hearing it (or be convicted of it - is she born again?) and tone it down. Cling to God's truth. When your mother does something hurtful/dishonest, tell yourself, "There she goes again." If we know monkeys eat bananas, why are we surprised when a monkey eats another one? But I won't minimize how disagreeable and hard to deal with this kind of constant assault is. Because it *is* an assault - it's spiritual warfare. She's capitulated to lies, and now the target is you. Fight back God's way:

2 Corinthians 10:4
For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds NKJV or,

The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. NIV

The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. NASB

What are God's weapons? Truth, for one. His truth. Love, that isn't a feeling but an action for the other person's benefit. I think those two go together. Jesus died in sacrifice for sinning people who hated Him, and it works! He didn't use a bazooka (seems like a good idea to me, but that's a sinner talking!).

quote:

I keep coming back here, because everyone in the "real world" who knows us--without exception--thinks she walks on water, and for me to bad-mouth her "after all she's done for me" or "after all she's been through" would be met with hostility and defense for her at all costs. I have no one to hear my side--except here.


Oh, yes, all my family who rarely saw us and lived states away, and all her friends, thought she was a saint. They never saw that when there was no audience, she didn't talk to me unless I "bought" her attention by amusing her, and that she looked the other way when my father abused me.

Keep telling yourself the truth. Keep doing what is right: love her in action, make sure she has food and a roof over her head if she can't do that herself, and don't lie down on the driveway when she's behind the wheel.

Are you a minor stuck at home? Then keep plugging with your schooling, knowing this won't last forever. If you're an adult, move out. If she needs someone to take care of her, hire it. If it has to be you, move out but show up every day to "do" for her, and make sure the rest of the family has an opportunity to help her. Divide up the load so you only have to show up one or two days a week, because you have things you have to do, too.

I grieve with you, dear one. This is hard. Really hard. It's a battle, and God already won it, so take heart and keep up what you're supposed to be doing. If you aren't getting good Christian fellowship somewhere, go find some. You weren't meant to bear this mental and spiritual load alone.
God bless you, and I'm praying for you today. (((Hugs)))



savedbylove112 -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/1/2008 2:18:58 PM)

Thanks so much yet again, dear deermousie! I SO need your encouragement now. Please see this link for the latest outburst that drove me here seeking Godly advice before I go ballistic on someone! [8D]She's at it again... It's so hard to reconcile the love and gratitude I really do have for Mom when she does stuff like this. [:(] And I'm afraid I'm not a minor--I'm a 39-yr-old single mom! I moved back home to Mom after DH left us, and now I'm kinda stuck here, both financially and otherwise--Mom and I have kinda grown dependent on each other--I don't think she'd kick me out, but the worse things get, the more I wonder! Trouble is, I lost my job in April, and in NJ it's hard to get a place of your own without a lot of steady income and great credit--neither of which I possess.[:(]



shadowspring -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/1/2008 9:35:02 PM)

quote:

How did the forgiveness to the living parent manifest its-self?


For me, it meant long distances and the US Postal Service for years.

Later, as I came to understand my mom's condition better, it progressed to short phone calls which I kept very newsy and brief. Eventually it became short (painful) visits. Now I actually can say I come really close to enjoying her company. It took thirty years to progress to this place, but it was well worth it! [:D]

I have never gone out of my way to visit my mom (she lives in another state) but I have welcomed her into my home when she comes to my state. I prefer a short dinner, but she has stayed here before. Sometimes there was no other way. Three days is my max, and I stick to that rule.

She has been offended with me before over my steadfast three day rule, but I just claim that I am a mess and it's all I can handle. I never "blame" her. It would be pointless and unkind.

For me, understanding my mom's mental state has helped a lot. Someone loaned me a book (I think it was called Toxic Parents) that was very helpful with techniques for managing visits and phone calls.

Also I attended the twelve-step program ACOA which was very helpful in finding empathy and a safe place to vent. Counseling has proven useful in handling my painful memories and coming to a place of peace over it.

For me, ultimately I choose to love my mom, and I make this choice to honor Jesus. I do not approve of her painful actions/words, and I do try to protect myself as much as I can.

But I also understand that it is not personal; she is the same with everyone. It is her problem, and I love her as much as I can even with her very unpleasant personality problems.

At different stages in my life the honor I showed my mother looked different. In my twenties I kept trying to relate to her as if she were a healthy person- wanting to show her how she hurt me and wanting to see repentance and restoration. That was a painful waste of time. I withdrew for years, sending her only a small gift (obligatory) at Christmas with a short note. I would open her gift as soon as it came and write a thank you note, stamp it, and mail it the day after Christmas. It was so painful!

Then I began to see I could not change my mother. I started sending a card on her birthday and Mother's Day as well. I would pick cards with beautiful art and few words, since even reading the cards stung when I saw what mothers were "supposed" to be like.

Then I started attending the ACOA meetings and going through some counseling. That's when my mom came for her first visit. It was rough, but I survived. I was crying on the closet floor the day she left, but I did survive. [:)]

That was twenty years ago. Now I call my mom randomly to honor her. Sometimes I ask advice that I don't really want or need, just to honor her. Not about anything important, but things like what to serve at a special dinner, etc.

When she some to visit I have several techniques that help that I learned from the book that I think was called Toxic Parents:

I imagine a force-field around me that keeps her verbal barbs from reaching my heart. I mentally watch them explode harmlessly on my force-field.

I quickly agree with her criticism when I can, disarming her completely on that subject. "Yes, I have gained weight again. It always has been my weakness, you're right."

Changing the subject is good, and the asking advice thing always works like a charm.

Sometimes I just tell myself "That is the illness talking. Do not react! She cannot stop herself."

And the time goes by and I can genuinely hug her and say I love you when she leaves.

For me, until the painful memories were healed and I found a safe place of empathy, I just could not stand to be around her. Even mailing the cards was painful, but I did it for the Lord and I'm glad I did.

But thankfully, I did not need her cooperation to find the healing I needed.

For me, God used Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings (even though my mom doesn't drink, I was still welcomed!), counseling, and the love of friends and my husband, who listened to me in my distress, loved me, accepted me and told me I deserved better, though I wasn't likely to ever get it from mom.

So there is a picture of one woman's journey. I hope it helps you on your own journey of healing and honor.



jaimestarcross -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/3/2008 1:16:00 AM)

Compassion is something that is shown to those that don't deserve it ... just like us when we were deep in our sins and unable to save ourselves.... God provided us with a Savior and no one asked Him to do that!

I believe reading the Bible - especially the story of Joseph and how he was treated by his brothers -( being abused by your family members or parents) creates a lot of emotional scars for the abused person. I truly believe when the abused person surrenders their will and thirst for vengeance to the Lord - that will bring about the real healing in that abused person's life/heart/mind.

There's nothing wrong in telling someone that there's some deep hurts caused by a certain family member(s) and you are working toward getting yourself free of the emotional hurt/damage that was inflicted upon you in the past. There's no need to hang out all the dirty laundry.



shadowspring -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/3/2008 10:31:33 AM)

quote:

I believe reading the Bible - especially the story of Joseph and how he was treated by his brothers -( being abused by your family members or parents) creates a lot of emotional scars for the abused person.[/quote]

Did you mean to write this? (scratching my head...)



woodsandfield -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/3/2008 10:55:58 AM)

Thank you shadowspring, that was the " nuts and bolts " of working thru honor and forgiveness of an abusive parent.
You knew exactly what I was talking about and it looks like you've done
quite a bit to help yourself.
I don't know anything about the ACOA, so if you could shed some light on
that it would be great.
I live states away from mother and the last time I went to visit, at her invitation, I decided that I would not visit again without other family members with me.
I made the mistake of telling her I forgive her for her abuse. I learned later that forgiveness when none is asked for is between God and I.
I am not even certain that God requires us to forgive someone that doesn't ask for forgiveness. Twice when the Lord talked about forgiveness, there was stipulations on that forgiveness.
1) when Peter asked how many times we must forgive, the Lord said that every time they ask for forgiveness we must forgive them.
2) on the cross, Jesus said to forgive them...they know not what they do.
He could have just said to forgive them but he put a qualification on it.
I feel that most people read over this and don't meditate on the significance of the qualifications for forgiveness. In other words, if it wasn't important ; it wouldn't have been added.
You are very acknowledgable and made a great deal of progress but would you agree that no matter how much progress one makes it still hurts?
Especially if the abuse is on going.
Once it's stopped ( the abuse ) one can try to put it behind them, but if the abuse is ongoing, it's a constant struggle.


quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowspring

quote:

How did the forgiveness to the living parent manifest its-self?


For me, it meant long distances and the US Postal Service for years.

Later, as I came to understand my mom's condition better, it progressed to short phone calls which I kept very newsy and brief. Eventually it became short (painful) visits. Now I actually can say I come really close to enjoying her company. It took thirty years to progress to this place, but it was well worth it! [:D]

I have never gone out of my way to visit my mom (she lives in another state) but I have welcomed her into my home when she comes to my state. I prefer a short dinner, but she has stayed here before. Sometimes there was no other way. Three days is my max, and I stick to that rule.

She has been offended with me before over my steadfast three day rule, but I just claim that I am a mess and it's all I can handle. I never "blame" her. It would be pointless and unkind.

For me, understanding my mom's mental state has helped a lot. Someone loaned me a book (I think it was called Toxic Parents) that was very helpful with techniques for managing visits and phone calls.

Also I attended the twelve-step program ACOA which was very helpful in finding empathy and a safe place to vent. Counseling has proven useful in handling my painful memories and coming to a place of peace over it.

For me, ultimately I choose to love my mom, and I make this choice to honor Jesus. I do not approve of her painful actions/words, and I do try to protect myself as much as I can.

But I also understand that it is not personal; she is the same with everyone. It is her problem, and I love her as much as I can even with her very unpleasant personality problems.

At different stages in my life the honor I showed my mother looked different. In my twenties I kept trying to relate to her as if she were a healthy person- wanting to show her how she hurt me and wanting to see repentance and restoration. That was a painful waste of time. I withdrew for years, sending her only a small gift (obligatory) at Christmas with a short note. I would open her gift as soon as it came and write a thank you note, stamp it, and mail it the day after Christmas. It was so painful!

Then I began to see I could not change my mother. I started sending a card on her birthday and Mother's Day as well. I would pick cards with beautiful art and few words, since even reading the cards stung when I saw what mothers were "supposed" to be like.

Then I started attending the ACOA meetings and going through some counseling. That's when my mom came for her first visit. It was rough, but I survived. I was crying on the closet floor the day she left, but I did survive. [:)]

That was twenty years ago. Now I call my mom randomly to honor her. Sometimes I ask advice that I don't really want or need, just to honor her. Not about anything important, but things like what to serve at a special dinner, etc.

When she some to visit I have several techniques that help that I learned from the book that I think was called Toxic Parents:

I imagine a force-field around me that keeps her verbal barbs from reaching my heart. I mentally watch them explode harmlessly on my force-field.

I quickly agree with her criticism when I can, disarming her completely on that subject. "Yes, I have gained weight again. It always has been my weakness, you're right."

Changing the subject is good, and the asking advice thing always works like a charm.

Sometimes I just tell myself "That is the illness talking. Do not react! She cannot stop herself."

And the time goes by and I can genuinely hug her and say I love you when she leaves.

For me, until the painful memories were healed and I found a safe place of empathy, I just could not stand to be around her. Even mailing the cards was painful, but I did it for the Lord and I'm glad I did.

But thankfully, I did not need her cooperation to find the healing I needed.

For me, God used Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings (even though my mom doesn't drink, I was still welcomed!), counseling, and the love of friends and my husband, who listened to me in my distress, loved me, accepted me and told me I deserved better, though I wasn't likely to ever get it from mom.

So there is a picture of one woman's journey. I hope it helps you on your own journey of healing and honor.



woodsandfield -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/3/2008 11:17:45 AM)

Savedbylove and Deermousie, thank you so much for your posts. They were very helpful!
I know the drill; you do or don't do such and such or you're disowned.
The last time mother used that on me, she later denied she ever said it!
Even her favorite offspring ( the ones she lavished on and were practically perfect in every way, LOL ) don't care for her mothering skills. She denies facts and reinvents family history. Once, I started to talk to her about her abuse. I stopped when I saw that I caused her to cry. She said not a word and we never brought it up again.



deermousie -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/3/2008 8:30:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: woodsandfield

Savedbylove and Deermousie, thank you so much for your posts. They were very helpful!


You're welcome, dear one! When someone gets encouragement/help from anything I can say, it validates some of the hurt and pain I went through. It was for good for more than one person; God promised that and it's great to actually get to see it!


quote:

I know the drill; you do or don't do such and such or you're disowned.
The last time mother used that on me, she later denied she ever said it!


Yep. Not only mine said "I didn't say that" but "my daughter is insane because she is making these things up." Real fun. Not.

She would say terrible, hurtful lies about my intelligence (I've got at least 30 IQ points on her) and morals (I'm the only Christian and only moral person in the family) but the next day she'd refuse to admit she'd said them and weren't we all happy and loving? She thought so. She never admitted to being wrong because she thought she was such a better person than I was.

My mom had been threatening since I was 8 to disown me, and I knew when she finally did that the next day she would deny it but would disown me over and over in the future. So I stepped back to let her make the reconciliation. All she had to do was pick up the phone. But she was never wrong, so she died 7 years later without ever having talked to me again. How's that for a slave to pride? And in disowning me, she also lost contact with her only grandchild and with my kindly husband whom she adored. Strongholds are strong; sin is like that.

quote:

Even her favorite offspring ( the ones she lavished on and were practically perfect in every way, LOL ) don't care for her mothering skills.


Yep. I've got a (non-Christian) brother whom mom worshipped, but she never protected him from his father ("it never happened but let me buy you lots of gifts to make up for it") and he hates her AND him. He hates God, too, and his life is a mess.

quote:

Once, I started to talk to her about her abuse. I stopped when I saw that I caused her to cry.


I started to talk to mom about her abuse and she got mad. At me. I was lying, she said, and if I didn't stop she would stop loving me. Strongholds break up families. Yet she told everyone what a great mother she was, and only my brother and I knew the truth.

God is going to wipe the tears from our eyes, and meanwhile He heals us and we help each other. I refuse to believe lies anymore. I refuse to not say, "That's not true - _____ is true and God is true. If you get mad or silent, it's still true and that's how I'm going to live my life." It's kind of in your face so it won't work for everyone, but it has to be that way for me. I'm sick of lies and seeing liars ruin other people.

God is the God of truth. That's where I have to live. God help us all - and He will! Meanwhile, we love when we are not loved back, and God is glorified.



shadowspring -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/3/2008 10:42:36 PM)

quote:

Thank you shadowspring, that was the " nuts and bolts " of working thru honor and forgiveness of an abusive parent.
You knew exactly what I was talking about and it looks like you've done
quite a bit to help yourself.
I don't know anything about the ACOA, so if you could shed some light on
that it would be great.


I am so glad my story was a help to you. ACOA or Adult Children of Alcoholics (and other dysfunctional families) is a twelve-step program affiliated with Alcoholics Anonymous.

If there are meetings in your area you could probably find them with a Google search including ACOA and the name of your city.

The meetings are a safe, anonymous place where people can talk about what has happened to them, how they feel about it, how it is affecting them today, and what they are doing about it. For people that find the program really useful, they may want to get a sponsor (a more experienced group member) and start working through the twelve steps.

I only attended meetings to listen and share my story, though in these meetings I got lead on books and local counselors too. The Word of God was/is my personal twelve-step program, so I never worked with a sponsor. [:)]

People of all faiths and no faith come. It is not the ultimate solution, but it was part of the whole picture for me. Even when no answers are forthcoming, you will find a lot of compassion, empathy and encouragement there. And that in itself was an important part of the process for me.



savedbylove112 -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/3/2008 11:32:59 PM)

woodsandfield--thank you for letting us know our words blessed you--I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hijack your thread! I wish I had some Godly sound advice to offer like these other dear sisters--I just hope it helps to know you're not alone in the "not-getting-along-swimmingly-with-Mom" department! I know your situation is far tougher than mine, but I am grateful for you sharing your experiences here--if you can glean from these offerings, surely I can as well! Hugs and prayers in your direction! [:)]



woodsandfield -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/4/2008 9:58:55 AM)

Dear deermousie, shadowspring and savedbylove,
Again thanks so much for thoughtful answers that really help.
One of the reason I struggle with the forgiveness and it becomes a grind, especially when there are new offenses, is because I think how my life would have been so different and how I could have given so much more to others, especially my family, if I had had the help I needed as a child.
I know this for a fact; my life could have been so much more.
Then I thought that perhaps God knew this also and maybe I'm being tested on what I could do with the salt mine experience, when everything is a uphill climb up sheer rock and there's lots of heavy lifting?
What are your thoughts on this?



Sadey -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/4/2008 12:29:30 PM)

I know this seems hopeless but it isn't, there are things you can do for yourself. Hon you can't change your mom but you can get help for yourself and you deserve to have help with this.

Is there anyway you could get couseling? Through mental health or your church?

I'm a mom of grown children and when I read about you and deermousie and shadowspring, it just makes me so mad that someone would treat you that way. I'm outraged for all of you. I can't even begin to understand how anyone could do that to their grown children. The good thing about this is that all of you seem to have stopped the abuse with you. You are all smart and brave enough to change it for your children and you should all be very proud of yourselves.

So I'm sorry I don't have any answers for you but know there are a lot of people cheering you one as you struggle with this. I'm one of them.

I hope you can break free from all the craziness in your house.



deermousie -> RE: Honor thy father and mother? (7/4/2008 1:14:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: woodsandfield
One of the reason I struggle with the forgiveness and it becomes a grind, especially when there are new offenses, is because I think how my life would have been so different and how I could have given so much more to others, especially my family, if I had had the help I needed as a child.
I know this for a fact; my life could have been so much more.


OK, dear one, this will be hard to hear. Are you ready? You're coveting. God didn't give you a life that allowed you to be all you could be, so it's not ours to covet. I've had to deal with this one, too, and it hurts. But if God is sovereign (I'm betting everything on that being true, and I mean everything) and He withholds no good thing from those who walk uprightly (Ps. 84:11) then this was the best thing for both you and me. Yeah, somehow, in God's perfect way, it was the best. It sure doesn't look like it from where I stand, so we both have to choose whether we'll trust our thinking or God's. We are finite and fallible; God sees all and does all things well. With all that manure, there's got to be a pony somewhere in there. [:D]

And when all is said and done in this life, we'll get to see it from God's perspective and will likely shout, "Oh, wow, that's so great. God, You are a genius to get all that good to come out of that mess so perfectly!" So by faith we can rejoice now.

Apparently what God wanted from our lives is not a maximized adult who can do things and not hurt, but an injured healer who gives God glory by the way they live their crippled lives. Satan told God that Job wouldn't love God if God didn't do all kinds of good things for him, so God let Satan take things away from Job (everything except his life and his follish nagger of a wife) and it says in all things Job never sinned. He said, "Shall we accept only good things from God's hand and not adversity also?" Implicit in that is Job's persuasion that God was good and cared about him. We know that better than Job did (Job had no Bible - apparently he lived around the same time as Abraham).

I have to say, "God, I don't understand why it was so bad, but You do all things well and have promised me to bring good from it and make me like Jesus, so I'll lean on You in my blindness and rejoice in advance of hearing why you did it. When I find out I'll be jumping up and down for joy, so I'll start now. Thank You! Blessed be You forever!" That's faith. (Rom. 8:28,29, Heb. 11:1)

quote:

Then I thought that perhaps God knew this also and maybe I'm being tested on what I could do with the salt mine experience, when everything is a uphill climb up sheer rock and there's lots of heavy lifting?
What are your thoughts on this?


Maybe not tested so much as being proven and shaped:

1 Peter 1:6,7 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Ooh, and look at the next verse:

whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory

The context is trials. We Christians live in an upside down world, don't we? [:)] Or maybe the world is upside down and we're just now getting it right. God is gracious to us.

Our trials shape us and bring God glory. We are the trophies in God's trophy case:

having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace Eph. 1:5,6

Imagine that a book is being written about your life, about how God used the awful things in your life to bring you to Him and to bring Him glory because of how He used your hurts for good as you surrendered yourself to Him. Remember that God brought enormous good to the world by the torturous death of an innocent Man 2000 years ago; He is still working His magic, if I might use that word here. Bad results in good and grace is given to sinners so they are loved and become like Him. Wow! It's the greatest story in the universe! So trust Him to set the scene and introduce the characters and drive the plot. It's a happy ending (I looked at the last page of the Book. Happy is guaranteed!).

I think this is why Paul said:

And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Corinthians 12:9

We are weak and broken; God is whole and truth and love. The end is happy and full of joy, and hurts are healed and bad turns out for good. What a great story!

God bless you, dear heart, as you wrestle with this. May God be glorified by both our lives; indeed, by all of the body of Christ. The best is yet to be.



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