Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (Full Version)

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theo_book -> Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/29/2008 5:47:04 PM)

Does any reader know what Paul was referencing when he wrote of the
"thorn in the flesh" over which he prayed three times?

I have an idea about it, but want to hear from others before I post it.



LBolt -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/29/2008 6:26:52 PM)

Persecution from people. Numbers 33:55, I believe is the idea Sha'ul (Paul) was speaking of. Everywhere he had been, he'd been persecuted in some fashion. In II Corinthians 11:23-28 and in verse 10 of chapter 12 it seems to list very similar problems, couple this with Numbers, a messenger of satan (an evil spirit operating through people).

Of course, it could have very well been simply problems in general which would cover the whole gamut.



colliefan -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/29/2008 7:23:29 PM)

Rom 16:22 (ESV) 22I Tertius, who wrote this letter, greet you in the Lord.

1 Cor 16:21 - 24 (ESV) 21I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand. 22If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!£ 23The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. 24My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.


Gal 4:15 (ESV) 15What then has become of the blessing you felt? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have gouged out your eyes and given them to me.

Gal 6:11 (ESV) 11See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand.

Col 4:18 (ESV) 18I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand. Remember my chains. Grace be with you.

2 Thess 3:17 - 18 (ESV) 17I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand. This is the sign of genuineness in every letter of mine; it is the way I write. 18The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.


Philem 1:19 - 20 (ESV) 19I, Paul, write this with my own hand: I will repay it—to say nothing of your owing me even your own self. 20Yes, brother, I want some benefit from you in the Lord. Refresh my heart in Christ.

some evidence Paul suffered from poor eyesight



ChristopherJ -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/29/2008 8:17:22 PM)

Second Corinthians 12:7:

"And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me... (what was that thorn?) ... a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure."

Paul himself answers that question and says that it was a demonic spirit sent to 'buffet' him... what does that mean specifically? Could be any number of things. What do demons do? They tempt Christians. They also put sickness on people (not all sicknesses are caused by demons, but the ministry of Jesus makes it clear that some sicknesses are demonic in origin). So, it COULD have been poor eyesight as colliefan suggested, that's a possibility.

To me, the greater issue, and the main point that I think Paul himself was trying to stress, was the Lord's response to Paul in verse 9: "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness."



Godhead -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/29/2008 9:01:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan


some evidence Paul suffered from poor eyesight


Yes this was my thought. Failing eyesight was not uncommon on the onset of old age, due to poor nutrition. That may not have been the case, anyone can suffer poor eyesight in old age.

I think the messenger of Satan would have been some who oppose His message, like the so called super Apostles who were going to the churches that He had planted, to undo his work.

It could have been anything, some lust, sin or physical ailment. Healing was available in those days, and so Paul could have been asking to get healed. His eyesight was not healed. So it could be the eyes, or workers of Satan who opposed him.

For us it could be anything as well.



theo_book -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/29/2008 9:22:13 PM)

Thank you all for participating. I believe all have well articulated their various possibilities, and cannot say any of them are wrong.

However, for my own reasons I think it is something else. See what you think.

Jesus had established a principle during his public ministry, (30-33 a.d.) that would serve as a guide to citizens of the kingdom for all time; {1}"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." [John 18:36]

As early as 48 a.d. Paul wrote to the saints at Galatia, admonishing them - {2}"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" [Gal 3:3] "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." [Gal 5:25]

In 54/55 Spring and Fall, Paul wrote to the brethren at Corinth concerning the source of strength- {3}"The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. [1 Cor 15:56]

{4} For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure above strength insomuch that we despaired even of life: [2 Cor 1:8]

{5}And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. [2 Cor 12:9]

And in 56 a.d. he also reminded the saints in Rome {6}"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." [Rom 8:9]

Paul also reminded the saints at Galatia (48 a.d.) of the entanglement of bondage that takes away our liberty which is in Christ -{7}"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." [Bondage = slave, bound to] [Gal 5:1]

And he admonished them to not depend upon the law for their justification. {8}"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." [Gal 5:4]

When Peter was threatened by the authority of Jerusalem, he waited upon God to sustain his faith. God sent an angel to release him from his prison bars. Yet, Paul could remember the martyr Stephen, who fell at Paul's very own feet. Perhaps this example was the one uppermost in his mind. Or even James whom Herod slew because it pleased the Jews.

Whatever the focus of Paul's fears, Paul was a Roman citizen, and when challenged by the authority of Jerusalem, appealed to the authority of his citizenship of Rome, instead of his citizenship in heaven. His strength was sought at the throne of Caesar instead of the throne of God. He appealed to the flesh instead of the spirit. It came back to haunt him.

Three times, he stated his Roman citizenship as reason for protection from Jews of Asia, and three times he was afforded this protection. First, his appeal was to a Centurian named Festus, who reported it to a Chief of the Captains, named Lysias, to whom Paul reiterated his citizenship rights. Then Lysias reported it to Felix, to whom Paul again stated "I appeal unto Caesar."

The fact of Paul's freedom in Christ was lost in the chains forged by that same appeal, as stated by Herod Agrippa to Festus - "This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar." [Act 26:32]

So Paul's "appeal unto Caesar" was an appeal to the power of Rome to secure his safety from the Jews of Asia, in a time when the only power on earth that could keep him safe was the strong arm of God, in a kingdom which is not of the earth.

Paul spoke of it as a "messenger of Satan, a thorn in the flesh, to buffett my body" which it did when he was placed in chains and again when he was forced to live under house arrest for several years. He no longer exercised that freedom in Christ that had been characteristic of his preaching for so many years.

Three times he uttered his request for an appeal; three times he prayed that his "thorn" would be lifted from him; three times his prayer was rejected.

What say ye?

In the blood of Christ by the grace of God
and
In the grace of God by the blood of Christ

Theo Book



makarizo -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/29/2008 11:04:57 PM)

the phrase "three times"
is that literally 3 times, or is that a phrase like we say "I asked you a million times" (I am no Greek scholar)
I have read commentaries that have suggested this.

one of my bible teachers was positive that he was talking about his eyes..... that some pus substance ran out of it. I don't have the source of that.



LCannon -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/30/2008 12:22:01 AM)

Poor eyesight was the bane in the ancient world as the demonic force continue to be. Either 'thorn' is probably was good bet however just previous to his 'thorn'(2 Corinthians 12:8-10)Paul lists his physical travail(2 Corinthians 11:21-29)and(to me)that could be his thorn 'in the flesh', the effects of the ravages of his persecution. Any Christian worth his salt will have doubts and questions; some self, some imposed from outside, but the one's physical difficulties can be a great hindrance in ministry especially when they impede movement in travel.



LBolt -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/30/2008 12:34:42 AM)

This doesn't, IMO prove anything about poor eyesight...Theo_book that is an interesting take...again it was people whom the devil insired to put him in these adverse circumstances and this lines up with Num. 33:55.



theo_book -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/30/2008 6:33:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doer

the phrase "three times"
is that literally 3 times, or is that a phrase like we say "I asked you a million times" (I am no Greek scholar)
I have read commentaries that have suggested this.


It is factually three times.

quote:

one of my bible teachers was positive that he was talking about his eyes..... that some pus substance ran out of it. I don't have the source of that.


That's all right. Neither does the commentator. And I think you will find that bible teachers are among the most positive people on the planet. I still don't know whether its a fault or a virtue. (I guess with me its a virtue, with everyone else its a fault :)

quote:

(I am no Greek scholar)


That's o.k.
The narrative is in english anyway.



theo_book -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/30/2008 6:38:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LCannon

Poor eyesight was the bane in the ancient world as the demonic force continue to be. Either 'thorn' is probably was good bet however just previous to his 'thorn'(2 Corinthians 12:8-10)Paul lists his physical travail(2 Corinthians 11:21-29)and(to me)that could be his thorn 'in the flesh', the effects of the ravages of his persecution. Any Christian worth his salt will have doubts and questions; some self, some imposed from outside, but the one's physical difficulties can be a great hindrance in ministry especially when they impede movement in travel.


I agree, but then, nothing quite impedes "movement in travel" like a good set of Chains.

The issue with Paul however, assuming my premise to be true, is that he preached against what he did. He appealed to the strength of flesh over that of spirit.



theo_book -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/30/2008 6:43:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LBolt

This doesn't, IMO prove anything about poor eyesight...Theo_book that is an interesting take...again it was people whom the devil inspired to put him in these adverse circumstances and this lines up with Num. 33:55.


"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be ****s in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell."[Num 33:55]

Thanks for the reference.

I think it is almost always people God uses first to thwart our attempts to renege on our covenant with God. When we do not heed the reminders of brethren, God will finally resort to punishment.



sunofone -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/30/2008 2:58:53 PM)

I thought about this the other day,Theo and I like what all have shared here.What I find fascinating about issue like this,is that they are purposely left open ended.In doing so their are almost unlimited streams of revelation to be sought after.

I think the bible is full of open ended nuggets like this.



theo_book -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/30/2008 3:04:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunofone

I thought about this the other day,Theo and I like what all have shared here.What I find fascinating about issue like this,is that they are purposely left open ended.In doing so their are almost unlimited streams of revelation to be sought after.

I think the bible is full of open ended nuggets like this.


Oh I agree.



earthless -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/30/2008 3:26:42 PM)

Some believe that Paul's thorn in the flesh was his poor eyesight because of several passages that suggest this. Galatians 4:15 says, "For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me." Then in Galatians 6:11 Paul says, "See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand" (normally, a scribe wrote Paul's letters to the churches).

In Acts 28:1-2, as Paul gathered firewood, he picked up what looked like a bit of firewood, but found when he laid it on the fire that it was a viper that was stiff and cold. And as Paul stood before the council on another occasion, he was not able to recognize those at some distance from him.

Apparently Paul did not even realize that he was speaking to the high priest. " I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest" (Acts 23:2-5). Others think that Paul's thorn in the flesh was a physical incapacity, a handicap from the various beatings Paul suffered, but there is no proof of that or any other opinion on what Paul's thorn was. God simply did not choose to reveal this truth to us.

We may never know the answer until we get to heaven. What is interesting to note is that God kept it there for a reason and or simply did not remove what it was.

The Apostle Paul, for me, was the greatest Christian that has ever lived. It is interesting to see how God did not remove it, for He knew it wasn't important - what was important, and what is, His is grace which is sufficient for us and His will which is perfect.

I could lose I all have tomorrow, but I know I have the most important thing ever, salvation.



theo_book -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/30/2008 3:51:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

Some believe that Paul's thorn in the flesh was his poor eyesight because of several passages that suggest this. Galatians 4:15 says, "For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me." Then in Galatians 6:11 Paul says, "See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand" (normally, a scribe wrote Paul's letters to the churches).

In Acts 28:1-2, as Paul gathered firewood, he picked up what looked like a bit of firewood, but found when he laid it on the fire that it was a viper that was stiff and cold. And as Paul stood before the council on another occasion, he was not able to recognize those at some distance from him.

Apparently Paul did not even realize that he was speaking to the high priest. " I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest" (Acts 23:2-5). Others think that Paul's thorn in the flesh was a physical incapacity, a handicap from the various beatings Paul suffered, but there is no proof of that or any other opinion on what Paul's thorn was. God simply did not choose to reveal this truth to us.

We may never know the answer until we get to heaven. What is interesting to note is that God kept it there for a reason and or simply did not remove what it was.

The Apostle Paul, for me, was the greatest Christian that has ever lived. It is interesting to see how God did not remove it, for He knew it wasn't important - what was important, and what is, His is grace which is sufficient for us and His will which is perfect.

I could lose I all have tomorrow, but I know I have the most important thing ever, salvation.


Remind me of Job who said "Yea, though he slay me, yet will I trust him."
What more need one say than that?



9drtr -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (6/30/2008 9:07:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theo_book

quote:

ORIGINAL: doer

the phrase "three times"
is that literally 3 times, or is that a phrase like we say "I asked you a million times" (I am no Greek scholar)
I have read commentaries that have suggested this.


It is factually three times.

The narrative is in english anyway.


What are your credentials?

The narrative is not in English, it is in first century Greek.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (7/1/2008 3:15:58 AM)

Possibilities....

(A) Bad health. It was relatively common for people to have increasing health issues as they got older... mostly bad eyesight, but also some issues of mental health were also somewhat commonplace.

(B) Sin issues. Paul had a habit of referring to his flesh as his sin nature. Some take this to mean that his thorn in his flesh was a nagging sin issue that refused to go away. While I have a very hard time believing this, some take it seriously.

(C) Demonic Oppression. The following verse would seem to indicate this...

(D) A nagging conscience over killing the saints. Also a strong candidate considering that the messanger of Satan was sent to keep him humble.

(E) Some denominations of Catholicism declare that Paul had one of the stigmata... don't ask me, I don't know.

(F) A "mark of God" that drew persecution to him from other people.

Those are some of the most common options, make your own decision based on what you see in the Bible.

Adam



101 -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (7/1/2008 4:37:47 AM)

I think that in order to understand Pauls writtings you need to take into account of the type of person Paul was. We know that Paul counted himself as a Pharisee among Pharisees and that he persecuted the church Continuously. We also know that when Barnabas wanted to take John with them for a trip, Paul refused to have him. The argument was so heated that Paul and Barnabas went different paths. And from Pauls testimonies we know of the things that he had suffered at the hands of others. From this we can deduce that Paul was strong headed, and when he makes up his mind about something, he set himself out to do it. We can also deduce that Paul was a bull in that he was a tireless worker towards the gospel. Since Paul was a Pharisee amounst Pharisees, we can say that this type of attitude continued into his Christian life as well. In other words Paul would have been a Christian amongst Christians and we can see from his writtings that that is what he aspired to become. We also know from his letters that he had many serious setbacks when it came to seeing spiritual growth from his disciples. Even to the point that he thought his work may come to naught with some of them.
So when it comes to his statement about his thorn in the flesh and the reference to eye sight, I believe that it refers not to his physical eye sight but Spiritual. In other words it was referring to his charactor and his expectations of others. Paul needed to be a bull in order to be able to do the things that were required of him, but in doing so, this quality also hampered his relationship with the church. That was the thorn in the flesh that Paul is talking about. Paul came to realize that the success did not come from the strength of his hand but from the work of the Holy Spirit and it was there that he learned to rely on.



theo_book -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (7/1/2008 9:01:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 9drtr

quote:

ORIGINAL: theo_book

quote:

ORIGINAL: doer

the phrase "three times"
is that literally 3 times, or is that a phrase like we say "I asked you a million times" (I am no Greek scholar)
I have read commentaries that have suggested this.


It is factually three times.

The narrative is in english anyway.


What are your credentials?

The narrative is not in English, it is in first century Greek.


The narrative is in English. Once it is translated from the language of origin it becomes a narrative in the new language.



JimboFletch -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (7/1/2008 9:05:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
...Paul himself answers that question and says that it was a demonic spirit sent to 'buffet' him...

Personally, I think you are taking a figurative statement and trying to take it literally.



theo_book -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (7/1/2008 9:05:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 101

I think that in order to understand Pauls writtings you need to take into account of the type of person Paul was. We know that Paul counted himself as a Pharisee among Pharisees and that he persecuted the church Continuously. We also know that when Barnabas wanted to take John with them for a trip, Paul refused to have him. The argument was so heated that Paul and Barnabas went different paths. And from Pauls testimonies we know of the things that he had suffered at the hands of others. From this we can deduce that Paul was strong headed, and when he makes up his mind about something, he set himself out to do it. We can also deduce that Paul was a bull in that he was a tireless worker towards the gospel. Since Paul was a Pharisee amounst Pharisees, we can say that this type of attitude continued into his Christian life as well. In other words Paul would have been a Christian amongst Christians and we can see from his writtings that that is what he aspired to become. We also know from his letters that he had many serious setbacks when it came to seeing spiritual growth from his disciples. Even to the point that he thought his work may come to naught with some of them.
So when it comes to his statement about his thorn in the flesh and the reference to eye sight, I believe that it refers not to his physical eye sight but Spiritual. In other words it was referring to his charactor and his expectations of others. Paul needed to be a bull in order to be able to do the things that were required of him, but in doing so, this quality also hampered his relationship with the church. That was the thorn in the flesh that Paul is talking about. Paul came to realize that the success did not come from the strength of his hand but from the work of the Holy Spirit and it was there that he learned to rely on.


Paul was also proud of his pedigree as a Roman Citizen. His appeal top Rome three times, and his reference to praying three times to have the thorn removed, still appeals to me.

Thanks though for your input. There is at least an equal chance your are correct.



JimboFletch -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (7/1/2008 9:06:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Rom 16:22 (ESV) 22I Tertius, who wrote this letter, greet you in the Lord.

1 Cor 16:21 - 24 (ESV) 21I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand. 22If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!£ 23The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. 24My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.


Gal 4:15 (ESV) 15What then has become of the blessing you felt? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have gouged out your eyes and given them to me.

Gal 6:11 (ESV) 11See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand.

Col 4:18 (ESV) 18I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand. Remember my chains. Grace be with you.

2 Thess 3:17 - 18 (ESV) 17I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand. This is the sign of genuineness in every letter of mine; it is the way I write. 18The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.


Philem 1:19 - 20 (ESV) 19I, Paul, write this with my own hand: I will repay it—to say nothing of your owing me even your own self. 20Yes, brother, I want some benefit from you in the Lord. Refresh my heart in Christ.

some evidence Paul suffered from poor eyesight

I agree with your evidence and conclusion. I believe Paul suffered from an affliction of his eyesight.



Row1 -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (7/1/2008 9:59:49 AM)

my impression has been that there was some nagging problem that he wanted freedom from.

invoking the roman citizen rule does not seem like a nagging thing. also, christians are generally supposed to follow the law of the land, and rendeer unto Caeser what is Caeser's, and Paul was fully cognizant of law when writing Philemon. So, I don't quite see that (although it could totally be true).

I wonder if it was chronic pain, or some lust issue, as well as eyesight. any of these could plague you incessantly, leaving you to ask for mercy.



theo_book -> RE: Paul's "thorn in the flesh." Any Ideas? (7/1/2008 10:43:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Row1

my impression has been that there was some nagging problem that he wanted freedom from.

invoking the roman citizen rule does not seem like a nagging thing. also, christians are generally supposed to follow the law of the land, and rendeer unto Caeser what is Caeser's, and Paul was fully cognizant of law when writing Philemon. So, I don't quite see that (although it could totally be true).

I wonder if it was chronic pain, or some lust issue, as well as eyesight. any of these could plague you incessantly, leaving you to ask for mercy.


On the right track but floundering.

Paul was not wanting freedom from Roman Citizenship. He was wanting freedom from that which his appeal to Caeser placed him in. Remember
"Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.
12 Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go. 13 And after certain days king Agrippa and Bernice came unto Caesarea to salute Festus. 14 And when they had been there many days, Festus declared Paul's cause unto the king, saying, There is a certain man LEFT IN BONDS by Felix:" [Acts 25]

"And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, EXCEPT THESE BONDS.
30 And when he had thus spoken, the king rose up, and the governor, and Bernice, and they that sat with them:
31 And when they were gone aside, they talked between themselves, saying, This man doeth nothing worthy of death or of bonds.
32 Then said Agrippa unto Festus, THIS MAN MIGHT HAVE BEEN SET AT LIBERTY, if he had not appealed unto Caesar." [Acts 26:29-32]

Paul lost his liberty, that which his Roman citizenship had once guarenteed, now became a burden to him. Thrice, just as his plaint mentions of his condition.



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