RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> The Bible

[Poll]

What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean


Only on the night of your wedding you must not date anyone else
  0% (0)
For as long as you are a married man you must not date anyone else.
  100% (59)


Total Votes : 59
(last vote on : 8/6/2008 8:20:34 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message

benelchi -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/4/2008 1:03:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SealedEternal

The definition of "when" always indicates the time frame of something. The context of the verse in discussion is "WHEN the man took his wife and married her". That means that it is indicating the time that he took her and married her by the definition of the term "when" in every dictionary. "When" by definition always indicates a specific point in time when it is used in conjunction with a description of a specific point in time, and in other cases refers to a specific period of time when used in conjunction with a description of a period of time. You cannot however take a verse of scripture which uses the term "when" in conjunction with a description of a specific point in time (When a man takes a wife and marries her) and claim that it is supposed to be "interpreted" to mean a long period of time.

SealedEternal



You know I can't seem to find a single book on English grammar that identifies this grammar rule pertaining to the use of "When"; it's not listed in Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage nor is it listed in Garner's Oxford Dictionary of American Usage and Style, and these are two of the most well respected sources for English Grammar. Additionally, as you can see from the results of this poll, this doesn't seem to be how most people understand "when" either.


Can you cite one authoritative source that substantiates the existence of this grammar rule regarding the usage of "when" in a sentence?



SealedEternal -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/4/2008 9:32:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

You know I can't seem to find a single book on English grammar that identifies this grammar rule pertaining to the use of "When"; it's not listed in Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage nor is it listed in Garner's Oxford Dictionary of American Usage and Style, and these are two of the most well respected sources for English Grammar. Additionally, as you can see from the results of this poll, this doesn't seem to be how most people understand "when" either.


Can you cite one authoritative source that substantiates the existence of this grammar rule regarding the usage of "when" in a sentence?


Every dictionary, including the ones you list, define the word "when" as I have presented, but apparently you don't understand how dictionaries work. When a dictionary gives various uses of a term in different contexts, they are all valid uses but aren't interchangable with other contexts. All of the definitions of "when" in every dictionary, indicate the time frame of something, but that time frame depends on the context it is in. If it is used in conjunction with a description of a specific point in time then it always indicates a specific point in time, and if it is used in conjunction with a description of a period of time then it always indicates a specific period of time. You cannot however take a dictionary definition explaining "when" in conjunction with a description of a specific period of time and apply it to a situation where "when" is used in conjunction with a specific point in time.

What you did with your poll is called a bait and switch. You asked a question which used "when" in conjunction with a specific period of time which was "when a man is married" and then asked if it was referring to a specific point in time. Of course everyone said it isn't, because as I said and every dictionary confirms, "when" always denotes a period of time when used in conjunction with a period of time.

The Bible verse being questioned uses "when" in conjunction with "a man taking his wife and marrying her" which is a specific event and not a time period. A man only "takes his wife and marries her" at one point in time and then he is married to her for a period of time. If the text was intended to convey that it was referring to the duration of the marriage, it would have said "when he was married" as you did in your poll question, but it didn't. It referred to the point in time that he married her, so it was not meant to convey the duration of the marriage.

I've already explained to you that the definition of "when" can denote periods of time, but only when used in conjunction withy such. That doesn't mean that a sentense using "when" in conjunction with a point in time can be interpreted to mean a period of time, because it cannot.

SealedEternal



benelchi -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/4/2008 10:08:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SealedEternal

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

You know I can't seem to find a single book on English grammar that identifies this grammar rule pertaining to the use of "When"; it's not listed in Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage nor is it listed in Garner's Oxford Dictionary of American Usage and Style, and these are two of the most well respected sources for English Grammar. Additionally, as you can see from the results of this poll, this doesn't seem to be how most people understand "when" either.


Can you cite one authoritative source that substantiates the existence of this grammar rule regarding the usage of "when" in a sentence?


Every dictionary, including the ones you list, define the word "when" as I have presented, but apparently you don't understand how dictionaries work. When a dictionary gives various uses of a term in different contexts, they are all valid uses but aren't interchangable with other contexts. All of the definitions of "when" in every dictionary, indicate the time frame of something, but that time frame depends on the context it is in. If it is used in conjunction with a description of a specific point in time then it always indicates a specific point in time, and if it is used in conjunction with a description of a period of time then it always indicates a specific period of time. You cannot however take a dictionary definition explaining "when" in conjunction with a description of a specific period of time and apply it to a situation where "when" is used in conjunction with a specific point in time.

What you did with your poll is called a bait and switch. You asked a question which used "when" in conjunction with a specific period of time which was "when a man is married" and then asked if it was referring to a specific point in time. Of course everyone said it isn't, because as I said and every dictionary confirms, "when" always denotes a period of time when used in conjunction with a period of time.

The Bible verse being questioned uses "when" in conjunction with "a man taking his wife and marrying her" which is a specific event and not a time period. A man only "takes his wife and marries her" at one point in time and then he is married to her for a period of time. If the text was intended to convey that it was referring to the duration of the marriage, it would have said "when he was married" as you did in your poll question, but it didn't. It referred to the point in time that he married her, so it was not meant to convey the duration of the marriage.

I've already explained to you that the definition of "when" can denote periods of time, but only when used in conjunction withy such. That doesn't mean that a sentense using "when" in conjunction with a point in time can be interpreted to mean a period of time, because it cannot.

SealedEternal



No one is arguing that the definition you gave is (grammatically) not a posibility,
just that it is not the only posibility, or even the best one.

The dictionary gives examples of how "when" is used, and most of them are outside of the narrow definition you provided, and the dictionary doesn't provide a grammar rule like the one you have described for us, nor do any of the books on English grammar that I know of provide a grammar rule like you have described.

Unless you can provide an authoritative source that describes an English grammar rule for the use of "when" as you have described it, I must assume you have invented this "rule" solely to support your flawed interpretation.

Again no one is arguing that "when" cannot be grammatically understood as you have defined it, but simply that that is not the only or best definition of "when" in this context, so simply providing an example of its usage that aligns with your definition will not be enough, you need to provide a reference to the "rule" you have stated excludes all other possible definitions of "when" in this context.


Side note:

The underlying word 'Ki' in the Hebrew of this text is even harder to force into the narrow definition you have defined because it is always used in a much broader sense. It is defined as: that, for, when, because, since, like (as in comparison), but, etc...;



creationtalk -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/4/2008 10:52:24 AM)

quote:

Duet 24:1-4 states that "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that..."


Lets consider the meaning of "When" in this particular passage. The above is taken from the New American Standard (NAS) version. It can be interpreted to mean that at the time that he marries her is the only time, although I don't think that is the only way that it could be interpreted even in this translation.

Other renderings are:
KJV: "When a man hath taken a wife and married her, and it comes to pass that..."
This one places the taking of a wife and marrying her in the past, and "it comes to pass" implies that there has been a period of time between marriage and the time of the incident.

AMP: "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes..."
This could be interpreted similarly to the NAS version, with "when" implying at the time of marriage, though again, I'm not sure that is required.

NIV: "If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because..."
This version like the KJV version allows for a period of time to pass between marriage and the wife displeasing the husband.

I have a couple other translations that I will locate and check as well. However, I think that from looking at how the verse is translated across the different versions, I think that it is clear that the "when" in the verse cannot be strictly interpreted to mean a specific time--if that were the case, then all versions would agree. It also does not appear that the context requires that the "when" be the specific instance or time of the marriage.



SealedEternal -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/4/2008 2:55:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: creationtalk

I have a couple other translations that I will locate and check as well. However, I think that from looking at how the verse is translated across the different versions, I think that it is clear that the "when" in the verse cannot be strictly interpreted to mean a specific time--if that were the case, then all versions would agree. It also does not appear that the context requires that the "when" be the specific instance or time of the marriage.


That's a whole separate issue. The question of this thread is that "when a man takes a wife and marries her" in English is a reference to the duration of the marriage rather than a specific event. We are assuming for the sake of argument that this is the proper translation of the verse. By that standard it can only denote the time of the event of marriage and not the duration, while if it said "when a man is married" it would denote the duration and not the event of marriage. The op is attempting to claim that "when a man takes a wife and marries her" means exactly the same thing as "when a man is married" but clearly the latter is using "when" in conjunction with a period of time, while the former is using "when" in conjunction with an event in time. I have contended that "when" always denotes the time of something by definition, but it only indicates a period of time when used in conjunction with such, and a point in time when used in conjunction with an event.

SealedEternal



SealedEternal -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/4/2008 3:21:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: SealedEternal

Every dictionary, including the ones you list, define the word "when" as I have presented, but apparently you don't understand how dictionaries work. When a dictionary gives various uses of a term in different contexts, they are all valid uses but aren't interchangable with other contexts. All of the definitions of "when" in every dictionary, indicate the time frame of something, but that time frame depends on the context it is in. If it is used in conjunction with a description of a specific point in time then it always indicates a specific point in time, and if it is used in conjunction with a description of a period of time then it always indicates a specific period of time. You cannot however take a dictionary definition explaining "when" in conjunction with a description of a specific period of time and apply it to a situation where "when" is used in conjunction with a specific point in time.

What you did with your poll is called a bait and switch. You asked a question which used "when" in conjunction with a specific period of time which was "when a man is married" and then asked if it was referring to a specific point in time. Of course everyone said it isn't, because as I said and every dictionary confirms, "when" always denotes a period of time when used in conjunction with a period of time.

The Bible verse being questioned uses "when" in conjunction with "a man taking his wife and marrying her" which is a specific event and not a time period. A man only "takes his wife and marries her" at one point in time and then he is married to her for a period of time. If the text was intended to convey that it was referring to the duration of the marriage, it would have said "when he was married" as you did in your poll question, but it didn't. It referred to the point in time that he married her, so it was not meant to convey the duration of the marriage.

I've already explained to you that the definition of "when" can denote periods of time, but only when used in conjunction withy such. That doesn't mean that a sentense using "when" in conjunction with a point in time can be interpreted to mean a period of time, because it cannot.

SealedEternal



No one is arguing that the definition you gave is (grammatically) not a posibility,
just that it is not the only posibility, or even the best one.


The dictionary gives examples of how "when" is used, and most of them are outside of the narrow definition you provided, and the dictionary doesn't provide a grammar rule like the one you have described for us, nor do any of the books on English grammar that I know of provide a grammar rule like you have described.


That is incorrect. The dictionary says that "when" can refer to periods of time that are more broad, but that is only the case if it is being used in conjunction with a period of time. In the pretext of this poll you use the phrase "when a man is married" which is an example of "when" being used in conjunction with a period of time, so yes "when can refer to a broader period of time in that context, but if it is used in conjunction with an event rather than a period of time, then it absolutely must denote a point in time and absolutely cannot denote a broad time period.

Obviously the dictionary gives both uses because both are valid and possible, but both don't apply to the same contexts. When you use a dictionary, every entry of a certain term doesn't apply to every usage. You have to find the one that applies to the context you are using, and cannot just pick the one from the list that you like that doesn't fit the context. In other words you cannot take a definition referring to "when" in conjunction with a period of time, and apply it to a sentence where "when" is being used in conjunction with an event in time, as you are attempting to do with this thread.

quote:

Unless you can provide an authoritative source that describes an English grammar rule for the use of "when" as you have described it, I must assume you have invented this "rule" solely to support your flawed interpretation.


Open any dictionary and you will see that this is what "when" is always used to denote or ask at what specific point or time something occurs. That's the whole point of the existence of the term. Whether that specific time is a point in time or a period of time depends on whether it is used in conjunction with an event or a time period. It cannot be a time period when used with an event and cannot be a point in time when used with a time period. You're own poll proves just that, because everyone agrees that "when" being used in conjunction with a period of time, must denote a period of time and cannot denote a point in time.

SealedEternal



creationtalk -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/4/2008 5:44:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SealedEternal

The question of this thread is that "when a man takes a wife and marries her" in English is a reference to the duration of the marriage rather than a specific event. We are assuming for the sake of argument that this is the proper translation of the verse.

SealedEternal


Why? I'm certainly not making that assumption.

Furthermore, as I pointed out previously if the "when" in question applies to the event of marrying, then the wedding night is already too late since it is after the event.

Keep in mind, that in the society in which this was written, "When a man takes a wife" applies to the engagement period also, since she is considered his wife from the moment they are engaged. Also, the whole context of the passage which this verse starts says if a man decides to divorce his wife because he found something "indecent" in her (BTW, this is not the word used in the Jewish Tanakh), so she marries again, if her second marriage ends, the first husband can't decide he made a mistake in divorcing her and remarry her.



SealedEternal -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/4/2008 6:18:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: creationtalk

quote:

ORIGINAL: SealedEternal

The question of this thread is that "when a man takes a wife and marries her" in English is a reference to the duration of the marriage rather than a specific event. We are assuming for the sake of argument that this is the proper translation of the verse.

SealedEternal


Why? I'm certainly not making that assumption.


Because the purpose of this thread is the definition of "when" in English as it pertains to "when a man takes a wife and marries her." If you think the verse is being mistranslated in most English Bibles, that would be a completely separate argument.


quote:

Furthermore, as I pointed out previously if the "when" in question applies to the event of marrying, then the wedding night is already too late since it is after the event.


When a man took (lâqach) and married his wife, was the time when he literally took her from the custody of her parents, and brought her to his home. That is the time frame that the verse is referring to.

quote:

Keep in mind, that in the society in which this was written, "When a man takes a wife" applies to the engagement period also, since she is considered his wife from the moment they are engaged.


That is incorrect:

Deuteronomy 20:7 'And who is the man that is betrothed to a woman and has not married (lâqach) her? Let him depart and return to his house, otherwise he might die in the battle and another man would marry her.'

Laquach refers to the end of the betrothal period when the man took his wife home.


quote:

Also, the whole context of the passage which this verse starts says if a man decides to divorce his wife because he found something "indecent" in her (BTW, this is not the word used in the Jewish Tanakh), so she marries again, if her second marriage ends, the first husband can't decide he made a mistake in divorcing her and remarry her.


Everybody agrees on that, but we are not discussing that aspect here.

SealedEternal



19ramman85 -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/4/2008 8:33:39 PM)

This topic reminds me of the discussions/debates theya had about 10 yrs ago in relation to Pres. Clinton's - Depends on how you define the word - "is"


-charles



benelchi -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/4/2008 9:46:30 PM)

quote:

We are assuming for the sake of argument that this is the proper translation of the verse.


As someone who can read Hebrew, I do accept this as a valid translation, as I do most of the other translations of this verse; however, I don't accept your narrow definition of "when"; that definition is something the translators never intended because no one understands "when" narrowly. If the translators had ever imagined that people would misinterpret this passage in the way you have done, I am sure they would have chosen other words just to avoid the issue. Fortunately, almost all readers of the English langauge are not so easily confused.

Creationtalk, great post.

I think one of the easiest ways to avoid this kind of misinterpretation is to simply look at a few different translations and see if the same interpretation can be supported from each of them. When it cannot it is probably wrong.



benelchi -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/4/2008 9:47:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 19ramman85

This topic reminds me of the discussions/debates theya had about 10 yrs ago in relation to Pres. Clinton's - Depends on how you define the word - "is"


-charles



That's exactly how I see it!



SealedEternal -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/5/2008 9:32:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi



As someone who can read Hebrew, I do accept this as a valid translation, as I do most of the other translations of this verse; however, I don't accept your narrow definition of "when"; that definition is something the translators never intended because no one understands "when" narrowly. If the translators had ever imagined that people would misinterpret this passage in the way you have done, I am sure they would have chosen other words just to avoid the issue. Fortunately, almost all readers of the English langauge are not so easily confused.


The word has a clear and specific meaning, and that is to indicate the timing of something. Anyone who understands the term or how to understand a dictionary, knows that it always denotes as narrow of a time frame as the context dictates. If it is used in conjunction with an event, then it always indicates a point in time. If it is used in conjunction with a time frame, then it always indicates a period of time. In either case it is very clear and specific time, but whether it is a period of time or a point in time, is dependent on what it is being used in conjunction with.

You keep insisting that "when" can be used to indicate broad periods of time because the definition gives examples of it used in that way. That is true when it is used in conjunction with a period of time, but is not true when it is used in conjunction with an event. If the translators were intending to translate the verse to say that it denoted the duration of the marriage, they would have used the phrase "when a man is married" as you did in your poll question, because that would have indicated a period of time. They however believed that it was properly translated as "when a man takes a wife and marries her" which is an event that happens at a specific point in time, and cannot denote the duration of the marriage. A man is married to his wife for the whole duration of the marriage, but he only takes her and marries her once and at a specific point in time.

SealedEternal



benelchi -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/5/2008 1:44:00 PM)

Would anyone really have voted for option 1 instead of option 2 if it had been worded as follows?

quote:

What does "When a man takes a wife, he must not date other women" mean?


1) Only on the night of your wedding you must not date anyone else.

2) For as long as you are a married man you must not date anyone else.




creationtalk -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/5/2008 3:00:16 PM)

quote:



quote:

Keep in mind, that in the society in which this was written, "When a man takes a wife" applies to the engagement period also, since she is considered his wife from the moment they are engaged.



That is incorrect:

Deuteronomy 20:7 'And who is the man that is betrothed to a woman and has not married (lâqach) her? Let him depart and return to his house, otherwise he might die in the battle and another man would marry her.'

Laquach refers to the end of the betrothal period when the man took his wife home.


He is betrothed to her...she is his wife though they have not yet "married" at which point he would take her to his home and consummate the relationship.

Deut. 22:23-24 (NAS) "If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, they you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from you." (emphasis mine)

The betrothal period ends when the man takes the woman to his house, but she is considered his WIFE from the time of the engagement.

SE,
I have to thank you for one thing. I've spent a great deal of time investigating this passage (Deut. 24: 1-4) in the Bible. I've probably read a dozen commentaries, many different translations, including two or three Jewish translations and commentaries. I've learn a lot.

However, I disagree with you contention that the "when" in the verse can only mean the instance of the marriage. Not one commentary I've found supports that interpretation. I didn't only read commentaries I would agree with, I read every one I could find both in my own collection (some of it inherited) and on-line. Furthermore, what I've learned makes it even more unlikely that the when is that specific instance. Here's why: if we presume that the man discovered something about his new wife on the wedding night that he didn't know that was serious enough that he would reject his new wife over it, it was probably related to her purity...or lack there of. However, if this were the case, then he wouldn't bother to divorce her. The penalty for sexual impurity/adultery was death (Deut. 20-21). She would be dead.

OK, I'm through now. I have done a thorough study and am satisfied that I understand the context and content of the verse and it's correct interpretation. I am content to agree to disagree with anyone who has reached a contrary conclusion.



SealedEternal -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/5/2008 8:26:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: creationtalk

He is betrothed to her...she is his wife though they have not yet "married" at which point he would take her to his home and consummate the relationship.

The betrothal period ends when the man takes the woman to his house, but she is considered his WIFE from the time of the engagement.


Exactly. It's complicated to us because we don't make betrothal covenants well in advance of the marriage, and our engagements are not the same because they are not binding contracts as they were for Old Covenant people.

quote:

SE,
I have to thank you for one thing. I've spent a great deal of time investigating this passage (Deut. 24: 1-4) in the Bible. I've probably read a dozen commentaries, many different translations, including two or three Jewish translations and commentaries. I've learn a lot.

However, I disagree with you contention that the "when" in the verse can only mean the instance of the marriage. Not one commentary I've found supports that interpretation.


I guess if you consider commentaries to be authoritative, it would explain our difference in interpretation.


quote:

I didn't only read commentaries I would agree with, I read every one I could find both in my own collection (some of it inherited) and on-line. Furthermore, what I've learned makes it even more unlikely that the when is that specific instance. Here's why: if we presume that the man discovered something about his new wife on the wedding night that he didn't know that was serious enough that he would reject his new wife over it, it was probably related to her purity...or lack there of. However, if this were the case, then he wouldn't bother to divorce her. The penalty for sexual impurity/adultery was death (Deut. 20-21). She would be dead.


Deuteronomy 24 is not a new Law that stands alone as written, but is a regulation added to Deuteronomy 22:13-21, which explains why it is written in a way that assumes the Law is already known:

Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (lâqach) a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"

Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes (lâqach) a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took (lâqach) this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.

These are obviously describing the same scenario, but Deuteronomy 22 established the parameters of the Law and how it should be regulated, but you're correct it offered death as the penalty originally. You'll notice however that if she was innocent it says that "she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days" so clearly this was a form of divorce, and it also shows that there is no other cause by which he could divorce her other than betrothal fornication. Deuteronomy 24 then starts out describing a man who finds himself in the Deuteronomy 22:13-21 and goes on to say he gave her a certificate of divorce rather than stoning her to death, but adds that if he does so he cannot take her back later. This of course was what Joseph planned to do with Mary:

Matthew 1:18-19, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.

So Joseph is described as a righteous man for putting his wife away for betrothal fornication. That means that betrothal fornication is what the Law allowed divorce for, and Deuteronomy 24:1 is the only verse in the Law giving a provision for putting a wife away, so this is what it must be describing. Also Jesus reiterated that the Law of Moses permitted divorce for the cause of fornication only:

Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:3-9 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication, and marries another woman commits adultery."


quote:

OK, I'm through now. I have done a thorough study and am satisfied that I understand the context and content of the verse and it's correct interpretation. I am content to agree to disagree with anyone who has reached a contrary conclusion.


Alright, then please share with us what you believe the verse is specificaly teaching.

SealedEternal



SealedEternal -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/5/2008 8:46:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

Would anyone really have voted for option 1 instead of option 2 if it had been worded as follows?

quote:

What does "When a man takes a wife, he must not date other women" mean?


1) Only on the night of your wedding you must not date anyone else.

2) For as long as you are a married man you must not date anyone else.




That would be a poorly phrased sentence that people would necessarily have to correct in their own minds in order to give the answer, because common sense tells them that it can't be saying that he only can't date women on his wedding day, despite the fact that this is what it appears to be asking. The proper way to write the question is: "What does "When a man is married to a wife, he must not date other women" mean?" or "What does "When a man takes a wife, he must not date other women from that day forward" mean?" but as you wrote it, it is poor grammar, and isn't clear what is being asked, so the reader is required to correct the wording in their minds before they answer.

SealedEternal



benelchi -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/5/2008 9:25:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SealedEternal

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

Would anyone really have voted for option 1 instead of option 2 if it had been worded as follows?

quote:

What does "When a man takes a wife, he must not date other women" mean?


1) Only on the night of your wedding you must not date anyone else.

2) For as long as you are a married man you must not date anyone else.




That would be a poorly phrased sentence that people would necessarily have to correct in their own minds in order to give the answer, because common sense tells them that it can't be saying that he only can't date women on his wedding day, despite the fact that this is what it appears to be asking. The proper way to write the question is: "What does "When a man is married to a wife, he must not date other women" mean?" or "What does "When a man takes a wife, he must not date other women from that day forward" mean?" but as you wrote it, it is poor grammar, and isn't clear what is being asked, so the reader is required to correct the wording in their minds before they answer.

SealedEternal



Can you cite just one English grammar reference that support your conclusion?

Or is this just like almost everything else you have presented i.e. the only authoritative source is SealedEternal. The real scholars just don't know what they are talking about, right?

Some how you seem to think that every one should ignore the testimony of every expert, whether it be experts in English Grammar, experts in Hebrew grammar, experts in biblical archeology, etc.. and trust only the conclusions you endorse (despite your lack of credentials or study in any of these fields of study).

Again, when every authoritative source disagrees with your claim, it is your claim I must reject!



SealedEternal -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/5/2008 10:23:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi


Can you cite just one English grammar reference that support your conclusion?


Sure, EncartaŽ World English Dictionary, Compact Oxford English Dictionary, Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, Cambridge International Dictionary of English, Webster's Revised Unabridged, The Wordsmyth English Dictionary, The American HeritageŽ Dictionary of the English Language, Wiktionary, Dictionary.com, and every other dictionary I know of.

quote:

Or is this just like almost everything else you have presented i.e. the only authoritative source is SealedEternal. The real scholars just don't know what they are talking about, right?


I don't have the authority to define the English language, and must rely solely on the commonly accepted meanings of words such a "when" as they are used and defined by everyone.

quote:

Some how you seem to think that every one should ignore the testimony of every expert, whether it be experts in English Grammar, experts in Hebrew grammar, experts in biblical archeology, etc.. and trust only the conclusions you endorse (despite your lack of credentials or study in any of these fields of study).


When have I done that?

quote:

Again, when every authoritative source disagrees with your claim, it is your claim I must reject!



You haven't presented any authoritative sources that deny my understanding of what the word "when" means, and every source I know of confirms it. When always indicates the timing of something, and always indicates the timing of specific events when used in conjunction with specific events, and always indicates specific periods of time when used in conjunction with specific periods of time. If you have an "authoratative source" who denies this then please present his/her evidence, because I haven't seen it yet.

SealedEternal



creationtalk -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/5/2008 11:38:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SealedEternal

quote:

ORIGINAL: creationtalk
OK, I'm through now. I have done a thorough study and am satisfied that I understand the context and content of the verse and it's correct interpretation. I am content to agree to disagree with anyone who has reached a contrary conclusion.




Alright, then please share with us what you believe the verse is specificaly teaching.


I have already clearly stated what I believe the verse is saying in the context of this thread. I have no intention of debating further.

quote:

I guess if you consider commentaries to be authoritative, it would explain our difference in interpretation.


I have already stated that I have read multiple translations of the verse including Jewish translations, and posted some of them here. I found nothing in the translations to support the contention that the "when" in this verse must apply to a single instance of "marriage" and several that indicate this is not so. I appealed to to the commentaries since, both Christian and Jewish, to see if my reading might be in error. I refuse to base my understanding of scripture on a single translation, and prefer to study scripture in context--both of the verse and the culture in which it was written. I have done so for this verse and discussed what I have discovered within the context of this thread, which is concerned with the meaning and use of "when" at the beginning of verse 1.



benelchi -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/6/2008 12:39:02 AM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi


Can you cite just one English grammar reference that support your conclusion?



Sure, EncartaŽ World English Dictionary, Compact Oxford English Dictionary, Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, Cambridge International Dictionary of English, Webster's Revised Unabridged, The Wordsmyth English Dictionary, The American HeritageŽ Dictionary of the English Language, Wiktionary, Dictionary.com, and every other dictionary I know of.


I have checked many of these sources, and none that I have checked have any stated grammar rule about the usage of "when" that aligns with your claim.

Please provide one citation that shows the grammar rule you claim.

Here are a links to "when" on dictionary.com and its related thesaurus.com site. Not only does it not have any reference to the grammar rule you have claimed exists, but it cites several of the other sources you say substantiates the existence of the grammar rule, and they don't mention this rule either. The only place I have ever heard of this grammar rule is directly from you, and frankly I can only conclude that you have simply made it up to try and substantiate your strange interpretation.



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/when

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/when

BTW - take a look at the poll, it is now 44 against your definition of "when" and 0 in support of it. It seems quite difficult to find anyone who understands "when" as you claim it should be understood.



SealedEternal -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/6/2008 8:34:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

BTW - take a look at the poll, it is now 44 against your definition of "when" and 0 in support of it. It seems quite difficult to find anyone who understands "when" as you claim it should be understood.


That is incorrect. Your poll asks about "When a man is married" which is "when" being used in conjunction with a period of time, so your poll confirms exactly what I said.

SealedEternal



benelchi -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/6/2008 10:27:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SealedEternal

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

BTW - take a look at the poll, it is now 44 against your definition of "when" and 0 in support of it. It seems quite difficult to find anyone who understands "when" as you claim it should be understood.


That is incorrect. Your poll asks about "When a man is married" which is "when" being used in conjunction with a period of time, so your poll confirms exactly what I said.

SealedEternal



Here is exactly what you said before I began the poll.

"So you deny that When is an adverb specifically designed to indicate or ask at what time or at what point something happens? What dictionary are you reading? Every one I know of says just that."

Your latest claim was made after the poll overwhelmingly showed that your understanding was incorrect.

However, you still insist that some obscure "English grammar rule" precludes "when" from being understood in any other way than how you have original defined in the Deut. 24:1 passage, and yet you have been unable to provide any authoritative source that describes this rule of grammar.



SealedEternal -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/6/2008 1:59:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi




Here is exactly what you said before I began the poll.

"So you deny that When is an adverb specifically designed to indicate or ask at what time or at what point something happens? What dictionary are you reading? Every one I know of says just that."

Your latest claim was made after the poll overwhelmingly showed that your understanding was incorrect.


First of all, that definition is absolutely correct, but it was a more general definition of the term "when" without the clarifications I added as the discussion went on. Secondly, you are misrepresenting the facts in saying that I didn't make that clarification until after the poll began, because if you check the dates from the original thread, I had explained this to you three or four times before you ever started this thread. Therefore it was you that intentionally misrepresented my position in starting this thread, and created a poll question to supposedly prove yourself right, when I had already clearly explained to you several times that "when" does indicate time frames when used in conjunction with one.

quote:

However, you still insist that some obscure "English grammar rule" precludes "when" from being understood in any other way than how you have original defined in the Deut. 24:1 passage, and yet you have been unable to provide any authoritative source that describes this rule of grammar.


All of the dictionaries say that "when" indicates the specific timing of whatever it is used in conjunction with. They then give various types of time frames or points of time which it may denote. They are all specific points in time or time frames, but which are which is determined by whether they are used with an event or a time period. You don't seem to comprehend that these are not interchangable, but that "when" being used in conjunction with an event always indicates a point in time, and "when" being used with a time frame always indicates a period of time. Just because the word may be used both ways, does not indicate that you can use "when" in conjunction with an event to denote a time period, or with a period of time to denote a point in time.

SealedEternal



benelchi -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/6/2008 3:21:32 PM)

quote:

All of the dictionaries say that "when" indicates the specific timing of whatever it is used in conjunction with.


That's funny because none of the dictionaries I have looked make such a statement about "when", and many are the same source you claim support this "rule of grammar"

While they do provide examples that align with your definition, they also provide examples that contradict your definition. And absolutely none them support the supposed grammar rule you want us to believe exists that requires only your definition.


Question for Sealed:

If I provide for you a reference from the NASB translators of Duet. that contradicts your understanding of "when" in this verse, will you concede that your understanding is wrong?

Those that translated this verse should know how they intended "when" in this verse to be understood, right?

My guess is that no evidence is going to change your mind correct?



SealedEternal -> RE: What does "When a man is married, he must not date other women" mean (7/6/2008 10:02:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

All of the dictionaries say that "when" indicates the specific timing of whatever it is used in conjunction with.


That's funny because none of the dictionaries I have looked make such a statement about "when", and many are the same source you claim support this "rule of grammar"

While they do provide examples that align with your definition, they also provide examples that contradict your definition. And absolutely none them support the supposed grammar rule you want us to believe exists that requires only your definition.


Then show me one that says that "when" used in conjunction with a specific event actually denotes a period of time and not a point of time. No dictionary on earth that I'm aware of defines "when" to denote a period of time when used in conjunction with a specific event, nor vise versa. All of the examples I've seen use "when" in conjunction with events to denote specific points in time and "when" in conjunction with periods of time to denote specific time periods. As I explained several times now, just because "when" can indicate both points in time and periods of time, doesn't mean that the two are interchangable. Both are specific to the context they are used and are understood to denote one or the other depending on whether they are in conjunction with a period of time or a specific event.


quote:

Question for Sealed:

If I provide for you a reference from the NASB translators of Duet. that contradicts your understanding of "when" in this verse, will you concede that your understanding is wrong?


If you have quotes from the 50+ translators of the NASB as to what they believe Deuteronomy 24:1 says, I would certainly be interested in reading them and would give serious consideration to their conclusions, but we already know that their consensus was that Deuteronomy 24 referred to a man divorcing a woman who was found indecent/unclean when the husband took her and married her. If that wasn't what they thought was the best English rendition of the verse, they would have translated it differently.

quote:

Those that translated this verse should know how they intended "when" in this verse to be understood, right?


It is likely that they would know the proper translation of the verse from Hebrew, but I would always be sceptical of anyones opinions concerning the exegesis of the verse. The Scribes and Pharisees for example probably understood the Hebrew Language better than anyone alive today, but they still often managed to completely miss the whole intent of the passages they were reading, and to completely twist the text around to say the opposite of what God actually conveyed to Moses in the text. Translating the text and interpreting the meaning behind it are two completely different things, and I don't blindly trust anyones opinions on the latter.

quote:

My guess is that no evidence is going to change your mind correct?


It depends on what the evidence is. If it is the opinion of some man who claims to be an expert but doesn't have any substinative evidence to back their claim, then no it's not likely to change my mind. If on the other hand you have objective evidence that harmonizes with all of scripture, then I would definitely be open to changing my view.

As far as Deuteronomy 24 is concerned, it does not appear to be a new Law that stands alone as written, but is a regulation added to Deuteronomy 22:13-21, which explains why it is written in a way that assumes the Law is already known:

Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (lâqach) a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"

Deuteronomy 22:13-19 "If any man takes (lâqach) a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took (lâqach) this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.

These are obviously describing the same scenario, but Deuteronomy 22 established the parameters of the Law and how it should be regulated, but offered death as the penalty originally. You'll notice however that if she was innocent it says that "she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days" so clearly this was regarded as a form of divorce, and also shows that there is no other cause by which he could divorce her other than betrothal fornication. Deuteronomy 24 then starts out describing a man who finds himself in the Deuteronomy 22:13-21 scenario and goes on to say he gave her a certificate of divorce rather than stoning her to death, but adds that if he does so he cannot take her back later. This of course was what Joseph planned to do with Mary:

Matthew 1:18-19, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.

So Joseph is described as a righteous man for putting his wife away for betrothal fornication. That means that betrothal fornication is what the Law allowed divorce for, and Deuteronomy 24:1 is the only verse in the Law giving a provision for putting a wife away, so this is what it must be describing. Also Jesus reiterated that the Law of Moses permitted divorce for the cause of fornication only:

Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:3-9 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication, and marries another woman commits adultery."

It seems to me that scripture harmonizes together perfectly when it is understood that Old Covenant men were permitted to put their wives away for the cause of premarital fornication, and nothing else. If these experts have another view that harmonizes all of scripture together to another conclusion, I would honestly have to give consideration to which is correct, but as I have seen so far, most of them isolate individual passages and give one "interpretation" and then isolate another verse and give a totally contradictory one to it, and never attempt to explain how it all supposedly fits together, and common sense tells me they cannot. Therfore I hold scripture as authoratative, and any opinion that cannot harmonize with all of it, must be disregarded no matter what the supposed credentials of the one holding the opinion.

SealedEternal



Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI