Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (Full Version)

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Resurrected -> Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (6/30/2008 9:29:05 AM)

Luke 23: 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

The NT says that Jesus rose on the third day -- Sunday -- Jesus died on the cross the Friday before.

So how can the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise on the day they both died?

I've googled for some answers and came up with several different answers, so that is why I am here.

One explanation was that there was no punctuation in the Greek text, so the sentence could read:

"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise." (This seems unlikely to me.)

Another said that Jesus' soul did go to paradise with the soul of the thief and it was only His body that rose from the dead on Sunday.

Another one said:

The idea that Jesus contradicts himself (or the Gospels contradict themselves) concerning whether he had ascended to Paradise or not after his death on the cross is due to assumptions about Paradise as well as the need to contextualize.

Jesus says to the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in Paradise". This was indeed true. For the thief was to die that same day on earth; but in paradise "today" is any day in this world, as Heaven is outside of time.

-----

Has anyone researched this one? Is there a sound biblical explanation for what might appear to be a contradiction?

Thank you.

PS: This question was originally asked by a skeptic and he put it this way:

In Matthew 12:40 Jesus prophesies, “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” According to the synoptic gospels Jesus died late Friday afternoon. When the women arrived at the tomb sometime around dawn the following Sunday, the resurrection had already occurred. The time between the crucifixion and the resurrection could not have exceeded a day and a half thereby contradicting the prophecy. This prophecy is again contradicted in Luke 23:43 when Jesus says to the thief, “Truly I say unto you, today you shall be with me in Paradise.” Paradise, as I understand it, is not located in the heart of the earth. So, Jesus, this God-man, couldn't even correctly predict his own resurrection.



bob97 -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (6/30/2008 9:50:37 AM)

Jesus is God and God is omnipresent so it is no mystery that the thief could be in paradise with Christ/God. There are just so many scenarios as to how this could happen and because the bible is silent as to how it actually happened…just believe.

Bob



DaveW -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (6/30/2008 3:30:21 PM)

There were no punctuation marks in the original. THere were not even many spaces between words or sentances. Try it this way:

"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

That is equally valid.



Bluethread -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 2:04:24 AM)

Dave W do you own a minesweeper? I could never have stuck so closely to the question of the thief and Yeshua(Jesus) being in paradise.



greatdivide46 -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 8:02:37 AM)

quote:

So, Jesus, this God-man, couldn't even correctly predict his own resurrection.

Isn't it just like a skeptic to concentrate on a minor (how may days was Jesus dead) and completely skip over the major (Jesus' resurrection)? [:)]

Besides as I understand it, the way Jews count days, Jesus was dead for three days.



Resurrected -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 9:54:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Jesus is God and God is omnipresent so it is no mystery that the thief could be in paradise with Christ/God. There are just so many scenarios as to how this could happen and because the bible is silent as to how it actually happened…just believe.

Bob


OK, I'm sure the skeptic will be satisfied with your answer. lol



Resurrected -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 9:55:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

There were no punctuation marks in the original. THere were not even many spaces between words or sentances. Try it this way:

"I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

That is equally valid.


I don't think so.



bob97 -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 9:59:03 AM)

quote:

OK, I'm sure the skeptic will be satisfied with your answer. lol


It seems to me that the major theme of the Bible is faith...I live my life on that foundation. [:)]

Bob



Resurrected -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 10:00:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

So, Jesus, this God-man, couldn't even correctly predict his own resurrection.

Isn't it just like a skeptic to concentrate on a minor (how may days was Jesus dead) and completely skip over the major (Jesus' resurrection)? [:)]

Besides as I understand it, the way Jews count days, Jesus was dead for three days.


Skeptics look for all kinds of reasons not to believe.

So, do you understand that the thief and Jesus were in heaven/paradise right after they both died?

Did Jesus come back and then show Himself to His disciples?

Didn't Jesus visit "hell" too?

Or is "paradise" not heaven? Could "paradise" to a Jew be Abraham's bosom?



DaveW -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 12:03:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Resurrected
quote:

That is equally valid.
I don't think so.
On what basis?



DaveW -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 12:04:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

Dave W do you own a minesweeper?
The only minesweeper I own is a windows game that I never play......



SinnerSaved -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 1:04:25 PM)

No contradiction.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"

All those who through faith in the coming Messiah, were saved in Old Testament times but had died before Jesus was born, went to Abraham's bosom or 'Paradise'. This is located in Sheol or Hades. Those who were lost went to Sheol/Hades too, but not to Paradise. Between the saved and the lost is a 'great gulf fixed' (Luke 16:26).

During the time between His death and resurrection Jesus went to Sheol (Hades) in order to take the righteous with Him to Heaven and also to preach to the captives (the disobedient angels held in chains). See Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.

When Jesus said today you will be with me in Paradise, He was not referring to heaven. He was referring to Abrahams Bosom.



SinnerSaved -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 1:07:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Resurrected

Didn't Jesus visit "hell" too?



No.

Hell is Gehenna - the Lake of Fire. No-one is there ....YET.



upNORTder -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 1:09:30 PM)

Paradise and Heaven are two different things. Paradise is where a believer's soul goes when they die. It is also called Abraham's bosom. Jesus' and the thiefs soul went there that day. Jesus' soul returned to His body when He was resurected. Heaven is where we will go when we are raptured along with the souls from Paradise in their resurrected bodies.



DaveW -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 1:21:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinnerSaved

Hell is Gehenna - the Lake of Fire. No-one is there ....YET.
Not so.

Death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire, so they cannot be the same thing.

KJV: Rev 20:14a And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.



SinnerSaved -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 1:31:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

Not so.

Death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire, so they cannot be the same thing.

KJV: Rev 20:14a And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.


DaveW,

Although the KJV is my preferred translation, I believe that KJV translators got the translation of 'Hell' wrong. The NIV has Rev 20:14 as "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire". I believe that this accords better.



p31woman -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 1:36:24 PM)

quote:

According to the synoptic gospels Jesus died late Friday afternoon.


Really? Methinks this skeptic isn't as smart as he thinks he is. [8|]



bob97 -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 1:43:21 PM)

quote:

According to the synoptic gospels Jesus died late Friday afternoon.


If you do your own research and dig deep enough you will find that Christ died on Wednesday afternoon.

Bob



DaveW -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 2:18:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinnerSaved

Although the KJV is my preferred translation, I believe that KJV translators got the translation of 'Hell' wrong. The NIV has Rev 20:14 as "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire". I believe that this accords better.
So do other versions.

The greek uses Gehenim or hades where the KJV uses hell.

The term "lake of fire" only appears in Revelation. Hades gets thrown into it. I see no support for the lake of fire being hell. Hades = hell - that I can see. Gehenna = hell. That I can also see. But those words are not used to describe the lake of fire.



SinnerSaved -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 2:37:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

The greek uses Gehenim or hades where the KJV uses hell.

The term "lake of fire" only appears in Revelation. Hades gets thrown into it. I see no support for the lake of fire being hell. Hades = hell - that I can see. Gehenna = hell. That I can also see. But those words are not used to describe the lake of fire.


I think that we are getting into semantics here.

The KJV, I believe, incorrectly uses the word 'Hell' to describe Sheol/Hades. I believe that this is incorrect, because to me, Hell is eternal, and Sheol/Hades is temporary. I therefore consider Hell to be Gehenna or the Lake of Fire which we know to be eternal.



DaveW -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 2:46:16 PM)

I am not getting into semantics. I am trying to look at what the text says and not go beyond it.

Can you give reference for hell being eternal?

You are using the terms "I believe," "because to me," "I therefore consider." Why do you have these opinions? Are they supported by the text of scripture? If not, they are only guesses.



SinnerSaved -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 2:49:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

The term "lake of fire" only appears in Revelation. Hades gets thrown into it. I see no support for the lake of fire being hell.


Matthew 25:41

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 3:12

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:44

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.



SinnerSaved -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/1/2008 2:59:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

I am not getting into semantics. I am trying to look at what the text says and not go beyond it.

Can you give reference for hell being eternal?

You are using the terms "I believe," "because to me," "I therefore consider." Why do you have these opinions? Are they supported by the text of scripture? If not, they are only guesses.


But we are getting into semantics. We are looking at an English translation of an original Hebrew and Greek text, and trying to understand what the original meanings meant. The fact that the KJV and the NIV translate 'Hell' differently is clearly a matter of semantics - so which is right? That brings it all down to 'I believe' etc.

I believe that most people (and certainly the unsaved), believe that Hell is eternal. No proof. Just 'I believe'.



Ezra -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/2/2008 4:43:10 AM)

quote:

When Jesus said today you will be with me in Paradise, He was not referring to heaven. He was referring to Abrahams Bosom.


This is the correct interpretation, and there is no need to change the punctuation.

Before the ascension of Christ, Paradise was a section of Sheol or Hades, which is in "the lower parts of the earth" (Eph. 4:9) or "the heart of the earth" (Mt. 12:40). Sheol (Heb) or Hades (Gk) is the place of departed souls. The righteous dead went to "Abraham's Bosom", whereas the unrighteous were simply suffering in Hades (Lk.16:19-31).

To this day, the unrighteous dead go to Hades to await their final judgement at the Great White Throne, when "death and Hades (hell) will be cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:14). The righteous dead now go directly to Heaven (Acts 7:59; 2Cor. 5:8).

When Christ prophesied that He would be "in the heart of the earth" three days and three nights, His soul and spirit were there while His body lay in the tomb. He did indeed fulfil His promise to the dying thief, who was justified by faith and thus numbered with the righteous. This man's soul and spirit also went the same day to Abraham's bosom. Thus Christ did descended into "hell", but this "hell" is really Hades, as a reading of the Greek text will show (Acts 2:27.31).

However, at the resurrection and ascension of Christ, Jesus "led captivity captive" (Eph. 4:8,9). He took all the righteous dead with Him to Heaven (the New Jerusalem to be precise) and they became "the spirits of of just [ified] men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23). Which also means that Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise is now "the Paradise of God" in the New Jerusalem (Rev. 2:7;22:2).

Thus there is no contradiction here or anywhere else in Scripture. We simply need to dig a little deeper. Paul specifically states "Now that He ascended, what is it but that also descended FIRST into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things" (Eph. 4:9,10).



greatdivide46 -> RE: Contradiction? Luke 23:43: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (7/2/2008 6:46:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Resurrected

Skeptics look for all kinds of reasons not to believe.

So, do you understand that the thief and Jesus were in heaven/paradise right after they both died?

In paradise, yes.

quote:

Did Jesus come back and then show Himself to His disciples?
Yes -- if I understand your question correctly.

quote:

Didn't Jesus visit "hell" too?
I think one of the creeds says that, but I'm not really sure if He did or not.

quote:

Or is "paradise" not heaven? Could "paradise" to a Jew be Abraham's bosom?
I believe that Paradise and heaven are two different places, just like I believe that Hades and hell are not the same place. I suppose paradise to a Jew could be Abraham's bosom, but not being a Jew, I don't really know.



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