RE: Faith and certainty

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MrFribbles -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 8:42:40 AM)
quote: +10 is the only response for a Christian Guess I'm not a Christian, then... Live and learn, eh? quote: And why is it intellectually "dishonest" to be absolutely certain about God? How can we be absolutely certain about anything? How can I, for example, be certain you, Ezra, are a real person writing this, and not a cleverly crafted computer program designed to post on these forums? How can I be certain that what I experience as reality is, in fact, the false image created in my mind by some, hm, let's say hallucinogenic substance placed into my body against my will? How do I know, really know, that the stars are millions and billions and trillions of miles away, and not just points of painted light on the rim of our solar system? quote: We have a historical record on His coming to earth, living a sinless life, and dying for our sins, and rising again for our justification We also have historical records of the prophet Mohamed receiving a vision from the archangel Gabriel - should that be trusted as well? quote: Men gave their lives for their absolute confidence in this Gospel and the reality of Christ. Men and women have given their lives for other things that we, as Christians, believe are false. quote: Christians are not required to "argue" the validity of their faith. 1 Peter 3:15. quote: Absolutely. If we ourselves cannot believe without the shadow of a doubt that Christ died for our sins and rose again for our justification, we could not in good conscience proclaim this as the Good News which all men should hear and believe. And yet I do. How strange... quote: No. That would be calling God a liar. The Gospel is the Gospel of God, not of men. And it leaves no room for doubt. Believe it or reject it. There's a difference between doubt and unbelief. God is not scared of our questions, and most people, if they are honest, will admit that there are times when they have some pretty tough questions to bring before God. It's much more honoring to God to bring those questions to Him, instead of hiding from them with blind faith.

URForgiven -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 9:28:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace When I was a believer... Well now, isn't this really the crux of it? Seems to me all your questions are answered by this one statement. If your premise is off, then everything that comes after will be off also. Peace

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 1:51:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace When I was a believer... Well now, isn't this really the crux of it? Seems to me all your questions are answered by this one statement. If your premise is off, then everything that comes after will be off also. Peace Can you explain what you mean by this? Thanks AiP

URForgiven -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 2:18:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace When I was a believer... Well now, isn't this really the crux of it? Seems to me all your questions are answered by this one statement. If your premise is off, then everything that comes after will be off also. Peace Can you explain what you mean by this? Thanks AiP My sig offers a clue. VVVVVVV When you were a believer, what was your belief? Peace

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 2:53:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven My sig offers a clue. VVVVVVV When you were a believer, what was your belief? Peace I didn't think it was news that I don't believe in God... My belief was that Jesus was sent to atone for our sins by God, who created the universe and with whom we have a relationship through Christ. And that God responded to prayers, and judged us at the end our life. That's pretty much it, in summary. Obviously more detailed than that, but prob. not worth writing out here. AiP

URForgiven -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 2:57:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven My sig offers a clue. VVVVVVV When you were a believer, what was your belief? Peace I didn't think it was news that I don't believe in God... My belief was that Jesus was sent to atone for our sins by God, who created the universe and with whom we have a relationship through Christ. And that God responded to prayers, and judged us at the end our life. That's pretty much it, in summary. Obviously more detailed than that, but prob. not worth writing out here. AiP Well that's a nice belief, but it is not Christianity. How does that qualify you to say you were a believer?

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 3:01:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven My sig offers a clue. VVVVVVV When you were a believer, what was your belief? Peace I didn't think it was news that I don't believe in God... My belief was that Jesus was sent to atone for our sins by God, who created the universe and with whom we have a relationship through Christ. And that God responded to prayers, and judged us at the end our life. That's pretty much it, in summary. Obviously more detailed than that, but prob. not worth writing out here. AiP Well that's a nice belief, but it is not Christianity. How does that qualify you to say you were a believer? I believed in God, and specifically the God of the Bible (and no other gods). I believed that Jesus Christ was his son. If that's not quite good enough for your rather exclusive definition of Christianity, I make no apologies. Either way, I believed in God then. AiP

armydude -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 3:04:28 PM)
You may have explained this before, so if I'm going over ground you've covered, I apologize. Why did you stop believing? If you want to give a link to where you've explained it before, that works too. Thank you!

URForgiven -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 3:07:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven My sig offers a clue. VVVVVVV When you were a believer, what was your belief? Peace I didn't think it was news that I don't believe in God... My belief was that Jesus was sent to atone for our sins by God, who created the universe and with whom we have a relationship through Christ. And that God responded to prayers, and judged us at the end our life. That's pretty much it, in summary. Obviously more detailed than that, but prob. not worth writing out here. AiP Well that's a nice belief, but it is not Christianity. How does that qualify you to say you were a believer? I believed in God, and specifically the God of the Bible (and no other gods). I believed that Jesus Christ was his son. If that's not quite good enough for your rather exclusive definition of Christianity, I make no apologies. Either way, I believed in God then. AiP Belief in God does not make one a believer. Satan believes in God, that hardly makes him a believer. Satan also believes that Jesus is the Son of God. None of that makes one a believer. If you cannot define what make a believer a believer, how can you claim to have once been one? Furthermore how can you claim to reject something that you cannot even define? Peace

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 3:10:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: armydude You may have explained this before, so if I'm going over ground you've covered, I apologize. Why did you stop believing? If you want to give a link to where you've explained it before, that works too. Thank you! ArmyDude, I probably have explained it before, but happy to write it again. I'll give you the short version: It started when I became quite frustrated at how pseudo-sciences like astrology and homeopathy continued to exist, and generate wealth for those who practised them. The bottom line was that they were practises based wholly on a lack of evidence. Eventually I realised that my own religious beliefs fell into the same category, and that naturalistic explanations (which, to be fair, I had always accepted - always accepted evolution, for example) were amply sufficient. Further, I saw religion as being centred around fear, and this was something to escape. I lost a relationship with God, and moreover, the comfort derived therefrom, but saw the world with awe and wonder, and realised how much we need to get on with it and enjoy life. I stopped praying, and no fewer good things (or more bad things) happened to me. I remained just as moral, etc. Definitely a gradual process, and entirely self-motivated (in that no one ever sat me down and told me that God isn't real). HOpe that helps, AiP

armydude -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 3:18:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace ArmyDude, I probably have explained it before, but happy to write it again. I'll give you the short version: It started when I became quite frustrated at how pseudo-sciences like astrology and homeopathy continued to exist, and generate wealth for those who practised them. The bottom line was that they were practises based wholly on a lack of evidence. Eventually I realised that my own religious beliefs fell into the same category, and that naturalistic explanations (which, to be fair, I had always accepted - always accepted evolution, for example) were amply sufficient. Further, I saw religion as being centred around fear, and this was something to escape. I lost a relationship with God, and moreover, the comfort derived therefrom, but saw the world with awe and wonder, and realised how much we need to get on with it and enjoy life. I stopped praying, and no fewer good things (or more bad things) happened to me. I remained just as moral, etc. Definitely a gradual process, and entirely self-motivated (in that no one ever sat me down and told me that God isn't real). HOpe that helps, AiP It does help. I noticed one thing that disturbs me though. Not that you said it, but that it would be said at all. I'll quote your words here. "I saw religion as being centered around fear..." That is sad because it should not be so. 1 John 4:18 states that perfect love (the kind of love the God has for the world) casts out fear. As a preacher, I endeavor to steer clear of fear based witnessing. I can't explain why except to say that I want people to understand that the gospel message is about God doing everything to keep us FROM hell. Accepting that free gift is up to us, but it's not something we have to work at. You can't earn salvation because of the fact that it is a free gift. Just like any gift, it must be accepted or refused. So far you've refused it. I hope that in time you come to see that God is real and that He loves you personally. That's the gospel message. It's not about fear. Really.

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 3:19:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven Belief in God does not make one a believer. Satan believes in God, that hardly makes him a believer. Satan also believes that Jesus is the Son of God. None of that makes one a believer. If you cannot define what make a believer a believer, how can you claim to have once been one? Furthermore how can you claim to reject something that you cannot even define? Peace No, I cannot not (pardon the double negative) define a believer; my definition simply disagrees with yours. As I've said, I used to believe in God, and believed that Jesus was his son, sent to die for our sins. I believed that the Bible was God's moral instruction for us. Those were the beliefs I rejected. If you spelt out your beliefs, I'm sure I would reject them too. So even if I wasn't a proper believer then, I'm certainly not now, and am comfortable believing what i believe. But do you not also reject Islam? A Muslim could come here and accuse you of rejecting something you yourself don't understand. AiP ________ edited for typo and content

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 3:27:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: armydude It does help. I noticed one thing that disturbs me though. Not that you said it, but that it would be said at all. I'll quote your words here. "I saw religion as being centered around fear..." That is sad because it should not be so. 1 John 4:18 states that perfect love (the kind of love the God has for the world) casts out fear. As a preacher, I endeavor to steer clear of fear based witnessing. I can't explain why except to say that I want people to understand that the gospel message is about God doing everything to keep us FROM hell. Accepting that free gift is up to us, but it's not something we have to work at. You can't earn salvation because of the fact that it is a free gift. Just like any gift, it must be accepted or refused. So far you've refused it. I hope that in time you come to see that God is real and that He loves you personally. That's the gospel message. It's not about fear. Really. That you don't witness in a way based on fear is commendable. Nonetheless, too often the Christianity I see is based exactly around that. Have a look on YouTube for 'A Letter From Hell'. That's just one of many instances I've encountered where belief in God is motivated through salvation from eternal suffering, NOT through the positives it brings. And it supports the argument that religion arose partly through the need to control the public - what greater punishment for not doing as you're told than burning forever and ever! And going back to the original purpose of this thread, I get genuinely concerned when people tell others - even their children - that they themselves are literally certain that non-believers suffer for eternity. My OP challenged the idea of being certain about this, and the thread ended up a mess, but in this context, a child being told by their parents that they are certain will make that fear quite a bit more powerful. AiP

armydude -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 3:33:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace That you don't witness in a way based on fear is commendable. Nonetheless, too often the Christianity I see is based exactly around that. Have a look on YouTube for 'A Letter From Hell'. That's just one of many instances I've encountered where belief in God is motivated through salvation from eternal suffering, NOT through the positives it brings. And it supports the argument that religion arose partly through the need to control the public - what greater punishment for not doing as you're told than burning forever and ever! While it is true that some Christians (a lot of them actually) have perverted the gospel message to make it about fear, remember that Christianity is about Jesus, not Christians. I look forward to hearing more from you.

URForgiven -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 3:50:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven Belief in God does not make one a believer. Satan believes in God, that hardly makes him a believer. Satan also believes that Jesus is the Son of God. None of that makes one a believer. If you cannot define what make a believer a believer, how can you claim to have once been one? Furthermore how can you claim to reject something that you cannot even define? Peace No, I cannot not (pardon the double negative) define a believer; my definition simply disagrees with yours. As I've said, I used to believe in God, and believed that Jesus was his son, sent to die for our sins. I believed that the Bible was God's moral instruction for us. Those were the beliefs I rejected. If you spelt your beliefs, I'm sure I would reject them too. Do you not also reject Islam? A Muslim could come here and accuse you of rejecting something you yourself don't understand. AiP Fair enough. The point being that if the beliefs you rejected were not correct, then you were right to reject them. Which in no way precludes the possibility that the correct beliefs, when properly understood might not have the opposite effect. That does not make you someone who was once a believer, it makes you someone who once believed error. And it makes you now someone who is building on that error, by still believing that error was truth. If the truth sets you free, then the opposite is also true, that error binds. Peace

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 4:03:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven Belief in God does not make one a believer. Satan believes in God, that hardly makes him a believer. Satan also believes that Jesus is the Son of God. None of that makes one a believer. If you cannot define what make a believer a believer, how can you claim to have once been one? Furthermore how can you claim to reject something that you cannot even define? Peace No, I cannot not (pardon the double negative) define a believer; my definition simply disagrees with yours. As I've said, I used to believe in God, and believed that Jesus was his son, sent to die for our sins. I believed that the Bible was God's moral instruction for us. Those were the beliefs I rejected. If you spelt your beliefs, I'm sure I would reject them too. Do you not also reject Islam? A Muslim could come here and accuse you of rejecting something you yourself don't understand. AiP Fair enough. The point being that if the beliefs you rejected were not correct, then you were right to reject them. Which in no way precludes the possibility that the correct beliefs, when properly understood might not have the opposite effect. That does not make you someone who was once a believer, it makes you someone who once believed error. And it makes you now someone who is building on that error, by still believing that error was truth. If the truth sets you free, then the opposite is also true, that error binds. Peace For argument's sake, can you please explain exactly what I should have believed to be able to say that I was a believer? Thanks AiP

URForgiven -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 4:17:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven Belief in God does not make one a believer. Satan believes in God, that hardly makes him a believer. Satan also believes that Jesus is the Son of God. None of that makes one a believer. If you cannot define what make a believer a believer, how can you claim to have once been one? Furthermore how can you claim to reject something that you cannot even define? Peace No, I cannot not (pardon the double negative) define a believer; my definition simply disagrees with yours. As I've said, I used to believe in God, and believed that Jesus was his son, sent to die for our sins. I believed that the Bible was God's moral instruction for us. Those were the beliefs I rejected. If you spelt your beliefs, I'm sure I would reject them too. Do you not also reject Islam? A Muslim could come here and accuse you of rejecting something you yourself don't understand. AiP Fair enough. The point being that if the beliefs you rejected were not correct, then you were right to reject them. Which in no way precludes the possibility that the correct beliefs, when properly understood might not have the opposite effect. That does not make you someone who was once a believer, it makes you someone who once believed error. And it makes you now someone who is building on that error, by still believing that error was truth. If the truth sets you free, then the opposite is also true, that error binds. Peace For argument's sake, can you please explain exactly what I should have believed to be able to say that I was a believer? Thanks AiP I already have, and I would again, except for this... quote: If you spelt your beliefs, I'm sure I would reject them too. Which, as you know, is a deal breaker. I am praying for you my friend. Peace

Leo71 -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 4:18:46 PM)
quote: But do you not also reject Islam? A Muslim could come here and accuse you of rejecting something you yourself don't understand. That may be. But, while I can't speak for anyone else, I can say with absolute certainty (there's that word again) that neither would I attempt to argue/debate with a Muslim on something that I myself freely admit I don't understand. What would be the point? That would be like me going to an all atheist website just to engage in "healthy conversation."

atheistinpeace -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 4:36:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leo71 quote: But do you not also reject Islam? A Muslim could come here and accuse you of rejecting something you yourself don't understand. That may be. But, while I can't speak for anyone else, I can say with absolute certainty (there's that word again) that neither would I attempt to argue/debate with a Muslim on something that I myself freely admit I don't understand. What would be the point? That would be like me going to an all atheist website just to engage in "healthy conversation." I hope that's not a dig at my reasons for being here... And I cannot see what's wrong with discussing things with a Muslim so that you do have something you can understand and, therefore, debate. AiP

Leo71 -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 4:49:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace quote: ORIGINAL: Leo71 quote: But do you not also reject Islam? A Muslim could come here and accuse you of rejecting something you yourself don't understand. That may be. But, while I can't speak for anyone else, I can say with absolute certainty (there's that word again) that neither would I attempt to argue/debate with a Muslim on something that I myself freely admit I don't understand. What would be the point? That would be like me going to an all atheist website just to engage in "healthy conversation." I hope that's not a dig at my reasons for being here... And I cannot see what's wrong with discussing things with a Muslim so that you do have something you can understand and, therefore, debate. AiP I suppose you could call it a dig at your reasons for being here. I just can't see myself jumping into a debate with anyone about something I truly don't understand and have no interest in understanding. I see no use in arguing or debating with people for its own sake. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I have seen too many self-professing atheists get all wound up to the point of obsession on the topic of spirituality/religion just for the sake of "conversation." Me? I do not relish the thought of continuously banging my head against a brick wall. Something's gotta give... And I know it's not gonna be the wall.

PureLight -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 5:13:55 PM)
You'd find it far easier to witness to someone when you know a general idea of what they believe, this is a reason to get into understanding the Islamic faith or any other for that matter. If you as a Christian are going in just to debate, I'd say maybe your heart isn't in the right place. This is a reason I can't debate my friends in real life on certain matters because it would become a matter of pride and not a real expression of my love for them. I'm doing my best to get to that place.

Walker311 -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 5:38:56 PM)
AiP said: I believed in God, and specifically the God of the Bible (and no other gods). I believed that Jesus Christ was his son. If that's not quite good enough for your rather exclusive definition of Christianity, I make no apologies. Either way, I believed in God then. _______________________ There are quite a number of Christians who would say that you never truly believed. I am not one of them. That said... as one who once truly believed, you have committed the ultimate sin of blasphemy (you should know this yourself) and have grieved the Holy Spirit by your continued disbelief. It would have been better that you were never born. I don't believe that there is redemption for you. You made your choice to believe and you made the choice to stop believing... that is your righ! I am NOT condemning you. You have condemned yourself. What else is there to talk about here. Are you now a servant of Satan and working to undermine, confuse, and possibly convert the immature Christians with your rhetoric? Conversing with an unrepentant former Christian does not glorify God, is not enjoyable, or interesting. I don't pity you because you know better yet you freely choose... and have chosen poorly. This is my opinion! *Edited for spelling so there is no misundertstanding.* One more thing. My words should frighten you. You should run screaming to an almighty God begging for forgiveness. You know that one day... every knee will bow before Him and this includes yours.

bosoxdd -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 5:58:57 PM)
hes does seem to be nice polite and loves using big words..can you a wolf in sheep clothing

SonInMe1 -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 8:04:07 PM)
I believe God can redeem anyone. If our actions and words can keep us from God..we are all in big trouble. Now, belief. Yes, I know enough about Islam to know that Allah is not the God of Abraham, not matter how muslims claim it. They believe in two radically different ideologies. God is not proven by the knowledge of man. God is proven, by God. Any and all works based religions are not christianity...no matter how many christian sects preach it. There are many different interpretations out there. That does not mean there is no God. It means His nature is above our total understanding. If you want total understanding of God to believe in God....its....not....going....to...happen. If you want all of your questions answered...its not going to happen. Please...do not look to christians to prove God. No matter what some claim, we are not God and never will be God. Jesus is alive. That is very key and core to our belief. Jesus was not only a son of God, we all are, He was the Son of God. God Himself in the flesh. Perfect. Pure. He had absolute knowledge and foreknowledge. He knew the thoughts of men. God did not heal through Him. Jesus healed. No other can make that claim. Jesus had true spiritual authority. Jesus loves you.

SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Faith and certainty (7/2/2008 8:17:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace We could read this handle as "a theist in peace" or "atheist in peace". Anyhow let's address your questions. quote: My main question is this: how certain are you that your position on God is correct? (I.e., for the vast majority here, how certain are you that the Bible accurately describes the actions and motives of the creator of the universe?) Absolutely. The Bible is the Word of God -- a revelation from the Creator to His creatures via prophets and apostles. quote: Suggest that respondents to this post rate themselves on a scale of -10 to +10 - where -10 is 'certain there is no God', 0 is 'competely uncertain; have no position either way' and +10 is 'competely certain the Christian God exists'. +10 is the only response for a Christian, and it is not "the Christian God" (as though there might be others). It is God. period. Or, the Lord God Almighty. quote: The reason for my interest in faith and certainty is that it frequently troubles me. There are two main reasons for this. Firstly - and this is a point I've made before - it's intellectual dishonesty. We simply cannot be certain - literally certain - about matters of God. Why should it "trouble" you if you are an atheist? And why is it intellectually "dishonest" to be absolutely certain about God? If there is any real certainty in the universe, it is God. Everything else is relatively uncertain. quote: But the problem possibly becomes even bigger for matters of religion. The word 'faith' may be used as a synonym for religious belief, which may be claimed to be supported by evidence. But I frequently see 'faith' used in the context of religion to mean what it technically should mean - beliefs held without evidence (possibly even beliefs held because of a lack of evidence - otherwise the belief becomes no longer faith-based). Surely it becomes even more impossible (if you see what I mean) to be certain in this context. You seem to be making things unnecessarily complicated. The Christian's faith is indeed based upon evidence in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ. We have a historical record on His coming to earth, living a sinless life, and dying for our sins, and rising again for our justification. These are not mere fables. Men gave their lives for their absolute confidence in this Gospel and the reality of Christ. quote: Secondly, false certainty can have terrible consequences. Right. That is why you should carefully read the Bible and see what it has to say about life, death, and life after death. quote: And finally, for me, claims of certainty undermine arguments. Christians are not required to "argue" the validity of their faith. We are simply to proclaim the truth of the Gospel. Whether you believe or not is entirely up to you, but your response will determine your eternal destiny. quote: That's my take. There are a whole bunch of questions I'm curious about - do Christians believe that certainty is necessary for true faith? Absolutely. If we ourselves cannot believe without the shadow of a doubt that Christ died for our sins and rose again for our justification, we could not in good conscience proclaim this as the Good News which all men should hear and believe. quote: Do they believe that God would allow a small margin for doubt in the spirit of honesty? No. That would be calling God a liar. The Gospel is the Gospel of God, not of men. And it leaves no room for doubt. Believe it or reject it. quote: Do they believe that certainty is justifiable? More than justifiable. God Himself has given us the record of His Son (1 Jn. 5:11-13). Ezra, good post brother, as always very well put.

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