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RE: Faith and certainty - 7/2/2008 8:25:28 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 783
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
You may have explained this before, so if I'm going over ground you've covered, I apologize. Why did you stop believing?
If you want to give a link to where you've explained it before, that works too.
Thank you!
ArmyDude,
I probably have explained it before, but happy to write it again. I'll give you the short version:
It started when I became quite frustrated at how pseudo-sciences like astrology and homeopathy continued to exist, and generate wealth for those who practised them. The bottom line was that they were practises based wholly on a lack of evidence. Eventually I realised that my own religious beliefs fell into the same category, and that naturalistic explanations (which, to be fair, I had always accepted - always accepted evolution, for example) were amply sufficient. Further, I saw religion as being centred around fear, and this was something to escape. I lost a relationship with God, and moreover, the comfort derived therefrom, but saw the world with awe and wonder, and realised how much we need to get on with it and enjoy life. I stopped praying, and no fewer good things (or more bad things) happened to me. I remained just as moral, etc. Definitely a gradual process, and entirely self-motivated (in that no one ever sat me down and told me that God isn't real).
HOpe that helps,
AiP
Why is it that people assume that Christians can't have fun. Do they assume God is just a big old meanie just waiting to punish us as soon as a smile cracks open on our face?
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Faith and certainty - 7/2/2008 8:40:33 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 783
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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AiP, getting back on topic. Certainty and faith. I suppose they don't necessarily have to go hand in hand, ie some of the responses you have gotten.
As for why Christians say with absolute certainty who is going to hell, we don't say it God does. If you reject Jesus, you are condemned to hell. Why, is it fair, or whatever else may fit here, I don't know. I am not the judge, He is. Should we as Christians be telling people they are going to hell, I don't think so. But that doesn't mean we should hide that truth from people either. People need to hear the whole story. They need all the information. If people don't see the eternal consequence for unbelief, then why would they see a need to believe? Is that fear, or does that show us a need for a savior? I say the latter, but for some it may be the prior.
We are certain because the bible tells us so. We need not hide the truth from any man, or be afraid of the truth.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Faith and certainty - 7/3/2008 2:26:43 AM
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OneJohn410
Posts: 762
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
I'm sorry to read this. I was hoping you'd quit hiding behind your big words and just out and explain what's got you troubled. I'm not saying I'd try to make it all better for you, or say you were wrong for being troubled about it. God's already got all the positions of everything figured out, including those of everyone in His creation. Omnipotence... there's a big word for you. It's a powerful, awesome, humbling, and ominous thing to believe in Someone who created all and yet cares for you and for me.
Light was created after the Earth, the Bible says. That's interesting, but to be certain, you didn't quote where in the Bible you spotted this. Were you looking at the gospel of John chapter 1? But what is this... you didn't like my request to be any clearer, so why should I ask for any certainty?
Per your request, I'll let this one die down, faithfully and certainly.
OneJohn410
Not a particularly helpful post.
I've explicitly explained what concerns me about certainty. Where am I hiding behind big words? And I took your post into account when I submitted post#12, which included a clarification of what bothers me, so I don't know why you think I didn't like your request to be clearer. If there's anything I missed that you feel particularly merited my attention, I apologise.
The passage in the Bible I was referring to is Genesis 1:1-3. To be honest, I thought that was obvious!
AiP
aip,
You sure went back on your idea to let this one die down real quick. It's interesting how you diss the post of someone who's trying to understand what you are trying to say. Not very scientific. Sorry to have looked for certainty in what you were trying to say. The OP was vague, and everything that followed for me was take-offs on something that was IMHO gasping for breath and trying to make it to the end of the post. I was a volunteer of a vaguely worded poll, and you would not provide clarity.
Thread 12 your words quote:
GazingStock said that we can be absolutely certain that the supernatural exists, because it says so in the Bible. But it also says that that light was created after the Earth, which scientists are near enough certain is not true. There's a risk of this leading to a 'is the Bible/God real' discussion, which I'd prefer to avoid.
What or Who are the near enough certain scientists saying created the light? Let me guess... they take it on faith in their big bang theory- that there was creaking sound, a voice in the darkness saying, "Hey! What was that?!!?", followed by a clicking sound. Then light illuminated two small blobs of something impacting and making a soft smoosh sound?
]You are referencing the Bible, God's Word, for whatever purpose without noting book, chapter and verse, and you are talking about scientists studying the origin of the Earth, and not referencing your source(s). I read something about you gaining an appreciation for scientific theory and certainty in your world. Muddy posting, with certainty. Sorry to trouble you with things. God speed on your poll, and be sure to keep us up to date with your findings.
OneJohn410
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RE: Faith and certainty - 7/3/2008 3:47:00 AM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 210
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
I'm sorry to read this. I was hoping you'd quit hiding behind your big words and just out and explain what's got you troubled. I'm not saying I'd try to make it all better for you, or say you were wrong for being troubled about it. God's already got all the positions of everything figured out, including those of everyone in His creation. Omnipotence... there's a big word for you. It's a powerful, awesome, humbling, and ominous thing to believe in Someone who created all and yet cares for you and for me.
Light was created after the Earth, the Bible says. That's interesting, but to be certain, you didn't quote where in the Bible you spotted this. Were you looking at the gospel of John chapter 1? But what is this... you didn't like my request to be any clearer, so why should I ask for any certainty?
Per your request, I'll let this one die down, faithfully and certainly.
OneJohn410
Not a particularly helpful post.
I've explicitly explained what concerns me about certainty. Where am I hiding behind big words? And I took your post into account when I submitted post#12, which included a clarification of what bothers me, so I don't know why you think I didn't like your request to be clearer. If there's anything I missed that you feel particularly merited my attention, I apologise.
The passage in the Bible I was referring to is Genesis 1:1-3. To be honest, I thought that was obvious!
AiP
aip,
You sure went back on your idea to let this one die down real quick. It's interesting how you diss the post of someone who's trying to understand what you are trying to say. Not very scientific. Sorry to have looked for certainty in what you were trying to say. The OP was vague, and everything that followed for me was take-offs on something that was IMHO gasping for breath and trying to make it to the end of the post. I was a volunteer of a vaguely worded poll, and you would not provide clarity.
Thread 12 your words quote:
GazingStock said that we can be absolutely certain that the supernatural exists, because it says so in the Bible. But it also says that that light was created after the Earth, which scientists are near enough certain is not true. There's a risk of this leading to a 'is the Bible/God real' discussion, which I'd prefer to avoid.
What or Who are the near enough certain scientists saying created the light? Let me guess... they take it on faith in their big bang theory- that there was creaking sound, a voice in the darkness saying, "Hey! What was that?!!?", followed by a clicking sound. Then light illuminated two small blobs of something impacting and making a soft smoosh sound?
]You are referencing the Bible, God's Word, for whatever purpose without noting book, chapter and verse, and you are talking about scientists studying the origin of the Earth, and not referencing your source(s). I read something about you gaining an appreciation for scientific theory and certainty in your world. Muddy posting, with certainty. Sorry to trouble you with things. God speed on your poll, and be sure to keep us up to date with your findings.
OneJohn410
You're right, it didn't die down. Out of courtesy, I responded to some additional points that came up.
Re. light, suggest you look up the Standard Model of particle physics. It's a vast field of study I can't hope to do justice to within a few paragraphs.
The reaction to me being on these forums has been very positive - plenty of people willing to ask and answer questions. And I've had some quite touching comments that suggest there are plenty who really quite enjoy discussing things with someone with whom they don't agree, especially when they (i.e. me) write civilly and thoughtfully. That's sort of changed with this thread. I don't need or want to be on the receiving end of personal attacks. So with that, I really will let this rather bitter thread die down. PM me if there's something you were going to point out or ask.
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Faith and certainty - 7/3/2008 1:36:27 PM
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Walker311
Posts: 1498
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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It always happens this way because they are enamoured with the anti-God folks and then they raise you atheists up to rockstar type status. Next, our resident atheist bows out and you are missed because you are so nice and respectful and full of wonderful insight into the God-haters mind.
That is what you are... God hater? Right?
Oh! It is not bitter or a personal attack... it is the truth.
If you remark that you do not hate God or dislike God, would be an admission of belief. So, who could then believe anything that you say?
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RE: Faith and certainty - 7/4/2008 9:19:07 AM
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kung_fu_sed
Posts: 53
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline
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1 Cor. 1:22-23
"For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom..."
1 Cor. 1:21
"...the world did not know God through wisdom..."
Proverbs 3:5
"...lean not on your own understanding..."
John 20:29
"...Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."
Takes faith.
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