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Obama's views are further left on this issue than any presidential candidate we have ever had run for office

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[Obama] opposed (and opposes) DOMA, he supported the California Supreme courts ruling, and he opposes amending the CA constitution

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and of course as a Christian I know God does condemn such perversity of His design for marriage.

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Funny, I thought that was the story on John Kerry. Oh, silly me!

I just can't keep these "most liberal presidential candidates in human history" straight as they change every four years.

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Show me the direct quotes from Obama supporting these claims. Not hearsay, direct quotes.

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This is why you and I will never agree on this issue.

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At its core, marriage is a socio-economic contract, which is why lawyers oversee divorces instead of church officials.

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However, if is it your position that marriage springs from God, are non-Christian marriages (Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Non-religious, et al) then invalid?

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Hey, I was as flummoxed as you that the Dems could come up with a more liberal candidate than Kerry - but somehow they managed it.

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As the Democratic nominee for President, I am proud to join with and support the LGBT community in an effort to set our nation on a course that recognizes LGBT Americans with full equality under the law. That is why I support extending fully equal rights and benefits to same sex couples under both state and federal law.

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That is why I support repealing the Defense of Marriage Act and the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy, and the passage of laws to protect LGBT Americans from hate crimes and employment discrimination.

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And that is why I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states.

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Of course, which is why I directed the OP at Christians.

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No, God created marriage for humans, not a specific religious group.

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As I'm sure they will--in your mind--continue to do so every four years going forward.

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Okay, fair enough. Thank you for the quote. I also agree with him.

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Or at least your own definition of the term, apparently.

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I just cannot agree - like concepts of human liberty, marriage is a concept drawn up and overseen by people.

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I think I have a pretty standard definition of what it means to be a Christian. What is your definition?

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Of course, which is the typical materialist perspective – and incidentally means that marriage has no objective meaning, simply whatever the majority (or courts, in this case) say it is.

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Fundamentally, a faith in Christ and trying to do one's best to reflect his teachings - while also being wary of archaic Biblical passages which can be taken (and spun) in a number of ways. In other words, I am not a literalist.

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I think you're confusing the term "materialist" with "humanist."

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ORIGINAL: PhunkD

Or tired of a pointless war and a ruined economy.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

No, God created marriage for humans, not a specific religious group.

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ORIGINAL: GrapeApe

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ORIGINAL: PhunkD

Or tired of a pointless war and a ruined economy.

Obama is going to change this?

Hah.

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No, I mean materialist - one who doesn't consider anything but material existence to be real.

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ORIGINAL: cow451

A valid point, but homosexuality is not going to be undone nor limited by legislation or Presidential edict. Nor will more people become homosexuals if they can have legal unions. It will make them less "closeted", but that is happening anyway.

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ORIGINAL: todd_t

Jack, who are you to condemn the relationship between two same-sex persons who are committed to one another?

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ORIGINAL: todd_t

Fundamentally, a faith in Christ and trying to do one's best to reflect his teachings - while also being wary of archaic Biblical passages which can be taken (and spun) in a number of ways. In other words, I am not a literalist.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

Obama's actual stance on homosexual rights has been fairly vague (like many of his stances) until this last week. On June 26th, his wife Michelle outlined his views on homosexual 'rights'. What she detailed:

Has a career-long devotion to adancing the rights of Lesbian, Gay, and Transgender people.

Supported Lawrence v. Texas (Striking down sodomy laws)

Wants gay rights to be recognized in terms of housing, adoption, workplace, the military, and marraige

Opposes state and federal amendments recognizing marraige as being between a man and a woman.

Opposes DOMA (Federal Defense of Marraige Act)

Opposes Don't Ask, Don't Tell in the military.

I would say this puts him on the very far left in terms of this issue - is there any reason why someone considers marraige to be a God given institution should support Obama?

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Julius hello, well I know you being a retired Military man, you most likely do approve of gay rights.

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ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Julius hello, well I know you being a retired Military man, you most likely do approve of gay rights. The don't ask don't tell policy was and is a disaster. There were cases of people being murdered when fellow soilders found out the truth about someones sexual orentation. That is a horriable thing, that people could hate that much. The fact is Bill Clinton put this in action, not, served in the Military, himself, and could not gage soldiers reaction serving with, or, serving under a superior who is a homosexual. This is the same with Obama, his church ( former) for twenty years endorsed gay rights, gay ministers, even gay small groups. He has sat under teaching, in a church for years who practiced abomanation against God's word. It is ingrained in him, his head and his heart, by his religon. We that do not take the Bible out of context, know the truth about God's word and this issue. You know Obama will go as left as he can with this issue, because it is what he believes. It will result in churches accepting open homosexuality, our children thinking it is ok. I am drawing a comparesion to the ignorance of Bill Clinton on this issue not knowing what the results would be for the Military, and Obama, not being taught, or not wanting to know the truth taught in his church. Both are equally going to have a snowball effect in our society and churches.

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ORIGINAL: PhunkD

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ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Julius hello, well I know you being a retired Military man, you most likely do approve of gay rights. The don't ask don't tell policy was and is a disaster. There were cases of people being murdered when fellow soilders found out the truth about someones sexual orentation. That is a horriable thing, that people could hate that much. The fact is Bill Clinton put this in action, not, served in the Military, himself, and could not gage soldiers reaction serving with, or, serving under a superior who is a homosexual. This is the same with Obama, his church ( former) for twenty years endorsed gay rights, gay ministers, even gay small groups. He has sat under teaching, in a church for years who practiced abomanation against God's word. It is ingrained in him, his head and his heart, by his religon. We that do not take the Bible out of context, know the truth about God's word and this issue. You know Obama will go as left as he can with this issue, because it is what he believes. It will result in churches accepting open homosexuality, our children thinking it is ok. I am drawing a comparesion to the ignorance of Bill Clinton on this issue not knowing what the results would be for the Military, and Obama, not being taught, or not wanting to know the truth taught in his church. Both are equally going to have a snowball effect in our society and churches.

Do you really think that churches are that easily influenced?

And, for that matter, that our military has such little self control?

If so, electing the right president won't even begin to solve our problems.

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ORIGINAL: PhunkD

I cannot believe that you would denigrate our military so much.

If we cannot trust our soldiers not to kill their commanding officers and brothers-in-arms, how can they possibly function together in combat?


As for the church, once upon a time, we would rather die than compromise our faith. Now, you say that we would compromise just because a president believes something different?

Maybe in your church. Certainly not mine. Frankly, any church that could be so easily influenced is not really a church.

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ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Well how many Christians vote for a president that goes against Christian doctrine. There have been hate crimes against gays in the military. Notice my husbands uniform in avatar, he, and others would not serve under a gay man. The way things are. How many churches, openly embrace practicing homosexuals? My husband an officer himself, will tell you sometimes in war, men have tried to kill their commanding officers.

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ORIGINAL: PhunkD

I cannot believe that you would denigrate our military so much.

If we cannot trust our soldiers not to kill their commanding officers and brothers-in-arms, how can they possibly function together in combat?


As for the church, once upon a time, we would rather die than compromise our faith. Now, you say that we would compromise just because a president believes something different?

Maybe in your church. Certainly not mine. Frankly, any church that could be so easily influenced is not really a church.

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ORIGINAL: PhunkD

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ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Well how many Christians vote for a president that goes against Christian doctrine. There have been hate crimes against gays in the military. Notice my husbands uniform in avatar, he, and others would not serve under a gay man. The way things are. How many churches, openly embrace practicing homosexuals? My husband an officer himself, will tell you sometimes in war, men have tried to kill their commanding officers.

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ORIGINAL: PhunkD

I cannot believe that you would denigrate our military so much.

If we cannot trust our soldiers not to kill their commanding officers and brothers-in-arms, how can they possibly function together in combat?


As for the church, once upon a time, we would rather die than compromise our faith. Now, you say that we would compromise just because a president believes something different?

Maybe in your church. Certainly not mine. Frankly, any church that could be so easily influenced is not really a church.

So you are saying that your husband would break his oaths and commit murder if he were placed under a gay officer?

I feel sorry for you.


None of my friends that serve, nor the veterans I have encountered as a chaplain, have so quickly and thoughtlessly surrendered their honor.

If you would like people to continue to respect those who serve, you would be wise to stop speaking of your husband this way.

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Notice my husbands uniform in avatar, he, and others would not serve under a gay man.

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ORIGINAL: PhunkD

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Notice my husbands uniform in avatar, he, and others would not serve under a gay man.

At the very least, this demonstrates that your husband would break his oath.

Your statement about the people killing their officers implied that this is the way that soldiers would handle a gay officer.

So, while your husband would not do this, you believe that other soldiers would do this, is that right?