RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (Full Version)

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SteveSund -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 2:45:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Legal to protect our property and selves 24/7 my friend. Time of day has nothing to do with it.



IIRC, Texas is one of the few places where lethal force may be used to protect property. The vast majority of states only allow it to be used to dfend a person.

Personally, I wouldn't use lethal force to defend property, but it is hard to feel sorry for felons in this case.

FWIW, many jurisdictions follow the fleeing felon doctrine, so the fact they were shot in the back may not be as relevent as to whether they committed a felony. This isn't a sure thing either, and I don't know any instructors that teach it.



stamper_ben -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 2:47:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: upNORTder

quote:

Legal to protect our property and selves 24/7 my friend. Time of day has nothing to do with it.

_____________________________


We will be known as His by the love we show one another.




Moral to shoot two people in the back that are running away from you? With a neighbor that is a law enforcement officer present? In that back, that's showin' good love alright!

Love of my family is quite correct. Thank you for recognizing that.

And notice that the law enforcement on the scene DID NOT arrest Mr. Horn.

Again, thank you very much.



stellaluna -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 3:00:27 PM)

In Texas, it is legal to shoot someone in the back. It is further legal to shoot someone in the back in the middle of the day or in the middle of the night. In Texas, it is legal to carry a weapon in plain site. It is further legal to carry a concealed weapon.

If you don't want to get shot, don't attempt to rob or burglarize. It's quite simple.



mapachito13 -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 3:17:26 PM)

Horn called 911 and told the dispatcher he had a shotgun and was going to kill the men. The dispatcher pleaded with him not to go outside, but Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun and shot both in the back.

Horn's attorney, Tom Lambright, has said his client believed the two men had broken into his neighbor's home and that he shot them only when they came into his yard and threatened him.

I'd love to hear that 911 tape where he went with the intention of killing! This killing is no different than a gang banger gunning down someone who's in "su barrio".

Shot them in the back. What were they doing to threaten him? Mooning him? Killing with a shotgun has to be done at a closer range as well. Looks like he went hunting for some latinos!



stamper_ben -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 3:22:10 PM)

Well, the grand jury heard the evidence and made the decision that what was done was well within the laws of the state of Texas.

Of course there will be those who can't stand that fact because of their prejudices. See the last sentence in post 29 for proof of that.



GroupW -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 3:25:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

In Texas, it is legal to shoot someone in the back. It is further legal to shoot someone in the back in the middle of the day or in the middle of the night. In Texas, it is legal to carry a weapon in plain site. It is further legal to carry a concealed weapon.

If you don't want to get shot, don't attempt to rob or burglarize. It's quite simple.


From the Texas Penal Code:

"A person is justified in using deadly force against another to pervent the other who is fleeing after committing burglary, robbery, or theft during the nighttime, from escaping with the property and he reasonable believes that the property cannot be recovered by any other means; or, the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the property would expose him or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. (Nighttime is defined as the period 30 minutes after sunset until 30 minutes before sunrise.)"

Basically, the gist is that deadly force can be used for the protection and/or recovery of personal property even when the assumed burglar is running away - under two conditions:
1) it's "nighttime", or
2) if during the day, the use of non-deadly force would result in a substantial risk of death or serious injury

#1 gives the safe-harbor right to protect property during the night,
#2 gives the right to use deadly force to protect property, but is conditioned on the risk of serious personal injury to recover the property.

#2 would be dangerous to have to rely on in court. It could be always be argued that a person had other non-lethal options.



Zhi -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 3:30:58 PM)

quote:

Killing with a shotgun has to be done at a closer range as well.


It's interesting that you would point this out in your argument.

Obviously they were close enough to be a threat to him if they were within killing range of a shotgun, since, as you say, a shotgun is pretty much a close-range weapon (unless you have a specific type of choke, but that's another conversation). Close enough that he could aim, shoot, pump, aim, shoot, which, frankly, unless you're a star shotgun artist, takes a bit. Either they weren't actually in a hurry to leave or they were quite literally in his face when he started. Either way, definitely "plausible threat" material.



upNORTder -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 3:34:23 PM)

The Lord's Prayer

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on
earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we
forgive those who trespass against us*; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. Amen.


*not valid in the state of Texas.



GroupW -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 3:35:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

quote:

Killing with a shotgun has to be done at a closer range as well.


Close enough that he could aim, shoot, pump, aim, shoot, which, frankly, unless you're a star shotgun artist, takes a bit. Either they weren't actually in a hurry to leave or they were quite literally in his face when he started. Either way, definitely "plausible threat" material.


Making two 50 ft shots with a shotgun is really a pretty easy task. I only go shooting once or twice a year, but I can still hit double clay pigeons on the fly fairly reliably. That's a bit smaller than a person and a whole lot faster.



Zhi -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 3:36:56 PM)

... they're also made of fragile clay, and you're probably using birdshot for maximal scatter range.

Birdshot is unlikely to kill people even at close range. Ask Cheney.



GroupW -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 3:37:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: upNORTder

The Lord's Prayer

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on
earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we
forgive those who trespass against us*; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. Amen.


*not valid in the state of Texas.


That's the funniest thing I've read all day.



GroupW -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 3:41:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

... they're also made of clay, and you're probably using birdshot for maximal scatter range.

Birdshot is unlikely to kill people even at close range. Ask Cheney.


Bird shot at 50 feet could be extremely lethal. Cheney fired a 28 guage shotgun with size 7.5 shot. That's a pretty tiny load. I shoot 12 guage with a duck/goose load (size 2, +/-)that's made for better distance. That's a huge difference in energy at 50 feet. As it was, some of the shot from Cheney's gun found it's way into the victim's heart and caused a mild heart attack.



stamper_ben -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 3:45:25 PM)

Here is the Castle Doctrine Law that this case is all about. There is no mention of night or day or dusk or dawn in it.



Zhi -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 4:00:07 PM)

quote:

Bird shot at 50 feet could be extremely lethal. Cheney fired a 28 guage shotgun with size 7.5 shot. That's a pretty tiny load. I shoot 12 guage with a duck/goose load (size 2, +/-)that's made for better distance. That's a huge difference in energy at 50 feet. As it was, some of the shot from Cheney's gun found it's way into the victim's heart and caused a mild heart attack.


I think you might be confusing birdshot and buckshot. Take a look at the test results at http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2007/12/05/texas-shooting-joe-horn-s-911-call.aspx using birdshot. Even using the heaviest birdshot available (#4) in a 12-gauge at a 3 yard range, effective penetration of birdshot into ballistic gel was 6.5 inches. Keep in mind that the FBI definition of minimum acceptable penetration of ballistics gel to prove a round capable of stopping an attacker is 12 inches, with 18 inches being the preferred penetration. You have to mostly be really, really unlucky to get killed by birdshot. Granted I'm not sure why we're having this discussion, as only an idiot would load their shotgun with birdshot for home defense.

Other interesting facts:

Joe Horn was 61 years old when he confronted the burglars. Not exactly an age where you can get into a tussle with a couple of burglars in an attempt to stop them.

He never says that he intends to kill them to the dispatcher. The dispatcher appears to assume that he intends to kill them, but when he gets outside, he tells them not to move.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/posted/archive/2007/12/05/texas-shooting-joe-horn-s-911-call.aspx

A plainscloths detective was across the street and witnessed the whole thing. He considered Mr. Horn to be within his rights in his actions.



stellaluna -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 4:03:16 PM)

I was just about to post it. No mention of day or night in there.

And #2 isn't hard to prove in court...I couldn't find an instance of a grand jury indicting a property owner for shooting anyone on their property. (Not that there isn't one; I just couldn't find one.)

Here's a quote from the Dallas Morning News:

quote:


Texas grand juries have traditionally given people carte blanche to take whatever steps they need to keep their property, Mr. Edmonds said. "In the Pasadena case, as egregious as the facts may be," he said, "the law may still excuse that person's conduct."

He pointed to a case near Waco in the 1990s when the owner of a car saw a group of teenagers stealing his hubcaps late one night.

"He shot at them from his apartment and killed one of them" Mr. Edmonds said. "The grand jury no-billed it."

Jim Cornehls, an attorney and professor of urban and public affairs at the University of Texas at Arlington, said he defended a man a few years ago in similar circumstances.

The man lived in an apartment complex where kids left their bikes in a central courtyard.

"There had been a rash of bike thefts," Dr. Cornehls said, "and when this man got home from work late one night, he saw a guy out there purloining a bike.

"He whipped out his .22 and shot him. He didn't kill him, but he wounded him, and the prosecutors let that one slide. In his case, it wasn't even his property. It was a random bike."


Just last year a man in my city heard a noise, went outside and saw people around his car in his driveway. He couldn't see who was there or how many people there were, so shot blindly. He hit a teenager in the chest. The teen didn't die. He was charged with attempted burglary of a vehicle and the car's owner was no-billed.



mapachito13 -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 4:10:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

quote:

Killing with a shotgun has to be done at a closer range as well.


It's interesting that you would point this out in your argument.

Obviously they were close enough to be a threat to him if they were within killing range of a shotgun, since, as you say, a shotgun is pretty much a close-range weapon (unless you have a specific type of choke, but that's another conversation). Close enough that he could aim, shoot, pump, aim, shoot, which, frankly, unless you're a star shotgun artist, takes a bit. Either they weren't actually in a hurry to leave or they were quite literally in his face when he started. Either way, definitely "plausible threat" material.


He went out to them. They wouldn't have been a threat to him if he had stayed indoors! He went out on the offensive with the intention of killing.

The off duty cop was close enough to see this going on in the dark yet didn't take control of this situation? What was the matter? He couldn't drop the donut to go for his shield and gun himself? Methinks he may have perjured himself for his neighbor! I guess he may have interpreted one commandment as bear false witness for your neighbor!

It would been better for those men to have been in Saudi Arabia. At least there they only chop off your hands!



stamper_ben -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 4:13:31 PM)

quote:

The off duty cop was close enough to see this going on in the dark yet didn't take control of this situation?
Uhm, this happened in the middle of the day.... Might want to get your facts straight before you hang the man. Either one of them, Horn or the cop.



ken1906_4 -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 4:14:01 PM)

So it’s ok to be a Good Samaritan at the expense of a life?

quote:

He never says that he intends to kill them to the dispatcher. The dispatcher appears to assume that he intends to kill them, but when he gets outside, he tells them not to move.


Have you heard the audio? When this story 1st occurred late last year, I heard the entire audio footage and yeah he did tell the dispatcher that he intended to kill both of them. Listen between 6:06 and 6:08 of the audio.



Zhi -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 4:17:00 PM)

quote:

He went out to them. They wouldn't have been a threat to him if he had stayed indoors! He went out on the offensive with the intention of killing.

The off duty cop was close enough to see this going on in the dark yet didn't take control of this situation? What was the matter? He couldn't drop the donut to go for his shield and gun himself? Methinks he may have perjured himself for his neighbor! I guess he may have interpreted one commandment as bear false witness for your neighbor!

It would been better for those men to have been in Saudi Arabia. At least there they only chop off your hands!

They were in his yard. How do you know that they weren't intending to rob his home next?

He went out with the intent of stopping them.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 4:19:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ken1906_4

So it’s ok to be a Good Samaritan at the expense of a life?

quote:

He never says that he intends to kill them to the dispatcher. The dispatcher appears to assume that he intends to kill them, but when he gets outside, he tells them not to move.


Have you heard the audio? When this story 1st occurred late last year, I heard the entire audio footage and yeah he did tell the dispatcher that he intended to kill both of them. Listen between 6:06 and 6:08 of the audio.


That's what I thought too. [8|] (I've heard the audio, but it was a long time ago.) You can also hear the dispatcher repeatedly tell the man to stay inside. When I first heard it I remember it sounding like he was itching to hurt them no matter if they presented a threat to him or not... and no matter what anyone else said.



Zhi -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 4:28:16 PM)

quote:

Listen between 6:06 and 6:08 of the audio.


I just listened to it again (there's a link to the actual audio on the link I gave previously).

At the point you suggest, the dispatcher has just told Mr Horn that if he goes outside with a gun, he will "get [himself] shot" by the burglars, to which Horn replies, as best I can tell (it gets a tad garbled in the middle) "You wanna make a bet?" then either "I'm gonna kill'em" or "I'd go'n kill'em." Either way, my understanding there is that Mr. Horn is saying that IF they pull a gun on/threaten him, he will kill them. Not that he's going out there intending to kill them. Him yelling "You move, you're dead!" is pretty indicative of that. When he comes back in he's obviously terrified, yelling to the dispatcher that "they came in the front yard with me, I had no choice!... I didn't know what they were gonna do..." Not exactly what you would expect from someone who went out there with the intent to kill someone no matter what.



ken1906_4 -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 4:34:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

quote:

Listen between 6:06 and 6:08 of the audio.


I just listened to it again (there's a link to the actual audio on the link I gave previously).

At the point you suggest, the dispatcher has just told Mr Horn that if he goes outside with a gun, he will "get [himself] shot" by the burglars, to which Horn replies, as best I can tell (it gets a tad garbled in the middle) "You wanna make a bet?" then either "I'm gonna kill'em" or "I'd go'n kill'em." Either way, my understanding there is that Mr. Horn is saying that IF they pull a gun on/threaten him, he will kill them. Not that he's going out there intending to kill them. Him yelling "You move, you're dead!" is pretty indicative of that. When he comes back in he's obviously terrified, yelling to the dispatcher that "they came in the front yard with me, I had no choice!... I didn't know what they were gonna do..."


He had a choice. Since there was 2 guys why were there 3 shots? Did he miss the 2nd guy and chased him down the street?



Zhi -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 4:47:24 PM)

Hard to say.

It's interesting, though, that you're willing to give 2 illegal immigrant burglars caught in the act, one of whom had a felony drug charge already on his record, the benefit of the doubt, and not this 61 year old man who's terrified and trying to defend his house after watching them rob his neighbor.



rcjames -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 4:48:39 PM)

The man was acting within the Castle law of Texas, and I am so glad that some of you bleeding liberals were not on the Grand Jury to try and legislate by decree.

I deer hunt in Texas and I just love the posted signs on the property;

"Tresspaser will be shot, survivors will be prosecuted".

But I saw one on the adjoning property I liked even better.

"Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again".

Don't mess with Texas.

Thanks
RC



mapachito13 -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/1/2008 4:48:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stamper_ben

quote:

The off duty cop was close enough to see this going on in the dark yet didn't take control of this situation?
Uhm, this happened in the middle of the day.... Might want to get your facts straight before you hang the man. Either one of them, Horn or the cop.


I thought lynching was legal in Texas. [;)]

Day or night makes really no difference in the fact that he sees a man confronting 2 guys with a shotgun and he hangs back watching. No wonder Texans have to take the law into their own hands!

Well he better keep that shotgun handy from now on because his bravado just made him a target. Which probably wouldn't have happened if he just waited for police or for the off duty cop to finish his donut (whichever would have come first).



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