RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (Full Version)

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Marcus. -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 10:10:58 AM)

That was a dispatcher not a police officer on the phone with Mr Horn.



mapachito13 -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 10:31:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.

That was a dispatcher not a police officer on the phone with Mr Horn.


Then why did he caution him against "shooting my officers"? Don't know about Pasadena, TX but when you talk to a police dispatcher in my town they are a uniformed officer. The 911 operator usually hands you off to the police dispatcher in your jurisdiction after assessing the nature of the emergency.

BTW, Here's some advice from the man's OWN MOUTH!

Horn: 'I would never advocate anyone doing what I did'

He knows he made a bad choice!



upNORTder -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 10:52:26 AM)

What if someone's child was playing across the street, in the line of fire? What if your child was playing across the street?



Zhi -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 10:56:37 AM)

What if a pterodactyl had swooped out of the sky and taken Mr. Horn's gun, then used it to wreak havoc on the city of Tokyo with the help of Godzilla, while Mothra was out of town on vacation? WHAT THEN?!!!!

Can we cut down on the random and rampant speculation?



rcjames -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 10:59:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: upNORTder

What if someone's child was playing across the street, in the line of fire? What if your child was playing across the street?


What if the two felons had not been shot and decided to kidnap and molest your children. What if............


Thanks
RC



stellaluna -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 11:01:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Then why did he caution him against "shooting my officers"? Don't know about Pasadena, TX but when you talk to a police dispatcher in my town they are a uniformed officer. The 911 operator usually hands you off to the police dispatcher in your jurisdiction after assessing the nature of the emergency.

Our police dispatchers (in my particular Texas city) are definitely not uniformed officers--and they start at minimum wage. [8|]



JimboFletch -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 11:08:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Then why did he caution him against "shooting my officers"? Don't know about Pasadena, TX but when you talk to a police dispatcher in my town they are a uniformed officer. The 911 operator usually hands you off to the police dispatcher in your jurisdiction after assessing the nature of the emergency.

Our police dispatchers (in my particular Texas city) are definitely not uniformed officers--and they start at minimum wage. [8|]

Same here. A friend of mine was a dispatcher for a couple of years but took a clerical position at a dentist's office to make a better wage. She has never served in law enforcement except in that dispatcher position.



SteveSund -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 11:32:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.

*Firing a warning shot or shooting to wound is considered proof in many states that the situation wasn't life threatening. If it was you would shoot to kill. People defending
themselves have been criminally prosecuted for playing the Lone Ranger that way. Nice idea unfortunately you will get into legal trouble doing this.



I am a part time instructor. I don't agree that shooting to wound or to warn is proof that your life wasn't threatened, but I agree that it is foolish. You shoot to stop the threat, period. I don't know a single reputable instructor or training center anywhere that teaches it's students to fire a warning shot or shoot someone in the arm.



mapachito13 -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 11:39:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveSund

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.

*Firing a warning shot or shooting to wound is considered proof in many states that the situation wasn't life threatening. If it was you would shoot to kill. People defending
themselves have been criminally prosecuted for playing the Lone Ranger that way. Nice idea unfortunately you will get into legal trouble doing this.



I am a part time instructor. I don't agree that shooting to wound or to warn is proof that your life wasn't threatened, but I agree that it is foolish. You shoot to stop the threat, period. I don't know a single reputable instructor or training center anywhere that teaches it's students to fire a warning shot or shoot someone in the arm.


But do those reputeable instructors tell you to run out of your house and CHASE the bad guys?



stamper_ben -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 11:58:53 AM)

quote:

But do those reputeable instructors tell you to run out of your house and CHASE the bad guys?
THIS WAS A 61 YEAR OLD MAN! Show us the evidence you keep insisting is there that he RAN and CHASED ANYONE!



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 12:55:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: stamper_ben

Of course anybody is going to be worried about being "drug over the coals" when you have this mindset that is so prevalent here that the only thing to do to better your community is to hid yourself in a closet in your house to avoid bad things when they happen right next door to you! That's why this law was created so that people could LEGALLY react to situations that endanger their lives.

Give me Joe Horn as a neighbor any day. At least I know he's watching my back. And yours too in case you didn't realize.


No, I'd be doing what Mr. Horn started to do. I would talk with the police from INSIDE MY HOUSE and report descriptions and all that was happening and I'll leave catching the bad guys to the police! He endangered HIS OWN LIFE by being agressive and going outside! If he stayed indoors like the police told him REPEATEDLY they probably wouldn't have even noticed him and the police arriving on scene would have apprehended them and I bet they wouldn't have fired one shot!

I'm of a different color so the only thing Mr. Horn would see on my back was a target thinking I was some illegal alien!


My sentiments exactly. Plenty of times in courtrooms you hear judges ask why people put themselves into a worse situation than what they were already in... like someone dangerous is outside and the person knows it, but instead of staying your behind INSIDE, you go outside to confront the bad guys. He could have avoided all of that, but in the tape you can hear in the beginning how eager and set he was that he was going to shoot despite anything else.

Plenty of people are calling him a vigilante though. Some are calling him racist. (I just think the vigilante part applies.)



Marcus. -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 1:25:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

But do those reputeable instructors tell you to run out of your house and CHASE the bad guys?


Not the ones I have been trained by.

Where did it say that Mr Horn ran or chased anyone? I didn't see that in the article but I have heard folks speculate that in the media.



bob97 -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 2:47:31 PM)

Sorry but a large part of the problem in this country is represented by the apathy I see expressed by some here. The thought that we have no business being involved in social justice is silly.

It’s just like the crowd that stands around on the street corner watching someone get beaten to death, “I just didn’t want to get involved” or “Hey…I did my job…I called the police and they should be here in about 10 minutes.”

Bob



SteveSund -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 3:27:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveSund

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.

*Firing a warning shot or shooting to wound is considered proof in many states that the situation wasn't life threatening. If it was you would shoot to kill. People defending
themselves have been criminally prosecuted for playing the Lone Ranger that way. Nice idea unfortunately you will get into legal trouble doing this.



I am a part time instructor. I don't agree that shooting to wound or to warn is proof that your life wasn't threatened, but I agree that it is foolish. You shoot to stop the threat, period. I don't know a single reputable instructor or training center anywhere that teaches it's students to fire a warning shot or shoot someone in the arm.


But do those reputeable instructors tell you to run out of your house and CHASE the bad guys?


I wouldn't suggest that, but I wasn't addressing that issue.



rlj -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 3:58:58 PM)

quote:

How can you play this off as simple self-defense? It's not like this guy was sitting on his couch minding his own business. He went looking for a gunfight against the repeated instructions of a police officer.


I haven't for the reason you mentioned. The problem is in the state of Texas their idea of "self defense" or perhaps even when this kind of force is warranted is different then in Ohio. The laws in Texas were put in place by the citizens of Texas through their elected representatives.

Still though everything is moot if the Grand Jury doesn't indict. We had a case a couple years ago where a drunken cop decided to beat his kids, his wife then finnally threatened his sister and his brother in law who was in a neck brace. Though he did nothing violent to his BIL his BIL shot him and ended up killing him. There was no indictment and this upset the local big city police force who decided that this was about getting the pigs and nothing to do with self defense since the cop didn't hit the shooter or his wife. The police complained is should have at least gone to trial but it didn't because there was no indictment.

Perhaps not the best example but it is one high profile case in my area that the Grand Jury stopped before it could get started.

I am very much a stickler on states' rights. What could happen though is the feds could try and get involved using the "civil rights" angle that they used during the 60s so well. Double Jeopardy is alive and well in the US.



1love1God1way -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 4:44:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Sorry but a large part of the problem in this country is represented by the apathy I see expressed by some here. The thought that we have no business being involved in social justice is silly.

It’s just like the crowd that stands around on the street corner watching someone get beaten to death, “I just didn’t want to get involved” or “Hey…I did my job…I called the police and they should be here in about 10 minutes.”

Bob


Robbing is not the same as assaulting another person.

Killing just to prevent an assault (even though one was not imminent) is senseless.

Texas law my approve, but I pray that God has mercy on all that allow straight up murder to be justifiable.



rhippie -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 4:45:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rlj

quote:

You keep ignoring the fact that he shot them in the back. Why?


The law is moot anyway if the Grand Jury doesn't indict. They didn't. I applaud them and the state that actually allows people to defend themselves.


Answer the question



StephK -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 4:53:54 PM)

quote:

I am very much a stickler on states' rights. What could happen though is the feds could try and get involved using the "civil rights" angle that they used during the 60s so well. Double Jeopardy is alive and well in the US.


The feds didn't do too good of a job as far as border control goes. One had already been deported once for being a convicted felon back in 1999.



Zhi -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 4:57:00 PM)

quote:

Killing just to prevent an assault (even though one was not imminent) is senseless.

Really.

So, given what Bob was saying and what you just said, you're telling me that if a guy breaks into my house who appears to have the intent of assaulting and perhaps doing even more unspeakable things to my daughter and I, it is still "senseless" for me to pull out my husband's pistol and shoot him until the clip runs out.

Thanks, but I think I'm going to do all that's in my power to "senselessly" prevent the assault. I can deal with the psychological ramifications and finding a good carpet cleaner later. Frankly it would probably be easier to deal with than just letting him do what he wanted to us.



rlj -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 4:58:02 PM)

quote:

The feds didn't do too good of a job as far as border control goes. One had already been deported once for being a convicted felon back in 1999.


They will be even worse if Obama or McCain get elected. They both seem committed to an open border policy for anyone coming from south of the Rio Grande.

quote:

You keep ignoring the fact that he shot them in the back. Why?


Because I don't care where they got shot. Head, back, leg, chest, buttocks. It's real simple really don't come on to someone's property in Texas with the intent to steal it. It's not only against the law to do it but the law also allows you to forcefully defend yourself and your property even if you get some lead in your back. Perhaps those other "law abiding good hardworking people" that Dubya and McCain want to allow into the country from down south will be a little less inclined to break the law?



rcjames -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 4:58:57 PM)

Jeeeeeezzzzzz, You libs need to give it a rest; it is the law in Tecas that one can use lethal force to protect their or someelsed property.

I wish that was the law nationwide.

As there would be a lot less crime.

Soneone tries to jack your car; blast them. there would be a lot less attemts at carjacking.

Someone braaking in your house; blast them, there would be a lot less attempts at breaking in homes.



Thanks
RC



JimboFletch -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 5:08:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhippie

quote:

ORIGINAL: rlj

quote:

You keep ignoring the fact that he shot them in the back. Why?


The law is moot anyway if the Grand Jury doesn't indict. They didn't. I applaud them and the state that actually allows people to defend themselves.


Answer the question

Let's say, back when he was out doing his dirty deeds, you saw Ted Bundy leaving your neighbor's house (not knowing if he butchered the whole family or just took a quarter) and he threatened to be back for you or your family members later.

Would you hesitate in shooting even if his back was to you and would you bother taking careful aim at his little toe?

Another question:

Are you willing to put up a sign in your front yard stating: "ATTENTION: THERE ARE NO GUNS INSIDE!"



6dj8 -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 5:28:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Jeeeeeezzzzzz, You libs need to give it a rest; it is the law in Tecas that one can use lethal force to protect their or someelsed property.

I wish that was the law nationwide.

As there would be a lot less crime.

Soneone tries to jack your car; blast them. there would be a lot less attemts at carjacking.

Someone braaking in your house; blast them, there would be a lot less attempts at breaking in homes.



Thanks
RC


How DID you become a preacher?

Almost forgot, you do know that "Jeeeeeezzzzz" is a euphemism for "Jesus" don't you?



Zhi -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 5:28:16 PM)

I found this nytimes article interesting, as it has testimony from the officer on the scene among other things.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/13/us/13texas.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

"Captain Corbett said that a plainclothes officer had pulled up just in time to see Mr. Horn pointing his shotgun at both men across his front yard, that Mr. Ortiz had at one point started to run in a way that took him closer to Mr. Horn, and that both men “received gunfire from the rear.”"

I wasn't sure what to make of this comment by the neighbors:

"Yet the neighbors whose house Mr. Horn was protecting are Vietnamese. They later said they thought the two men had been stalking them."

Then I did some digging and found that the police suspect that the two burglars are part of a Houston-based organized burglary ring that specifically targets legal immigrants.



HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars (7/2/2008 5:53:02 PM)

Personally, I think shooting someone in the back is yella. That being said, thievery is and should be dangerous business, and if people got it into their heads, maybe they'd think twice about it. I remember a few years ago, a fellow out this way shot a couple of cattle rustlers. I live in one of the still pretty much free states, so it was a legal shooting too. That sort of thing became a LOT more rare in these parts for a few years after that. Don't want a surprise bullet in the head? Stay home, get up and go to work.



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