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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 10:48:54 AM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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Does anyone think the crime rate will drop in the neighborhood where this took place?
I do.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 10:55:26 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1331
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
"One of them, identified by the police as Hernando Torres, a k a Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, was found across the street "
"The other, Diego Ortiz, 30, fell on a neighbor’s lawn. Bloodstains were still visible on the sidewalk Tuesday." (Quote from article.)
If they were in HIS yard why are their NO bodies or blood in HIS yard? Sounds like they saw his shotgun and they immediately turned to flee and were shot in the back - outside of his yard.
The yard wasn't very big.
quote:
In regards to his defense of his "Vietnamese" neighbors he stated on the 911 call that "he didn't know them". (Even in LA, people know their next door neighbor.) "If it was his other neighbor," he said, "I'd have been over there already!" He shows a differentiation between neighbors. Why?
Maybe they had moved there recently. I don't know my neighbors on one side here yet, but that's because I just moved here a month ago and we're usually not here on weekends, which makes it difficult to get to know people.
quote:
Lastly, where is your source for the claim of a crime ring? I can claim I have a source that shows he was a card carrying member of the KKK but without a source for these allegations it's just my attempts to affect people's perceptions.
http://www.myfoxhouston.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5186044&version=3&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1
"The suspected burglars were illegal immigrants from Colombia. Police are trying to determine if they were part of a crime ring linked to burglaries and fake immigration documents. Police found a Puerto Rican identification card on Ortiz, who they say had two aliases. Torres had identification cards from Colombia, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic and had three aliases. "
quote:
BTW, no one who is against his cowboy style vigilantism is naive enough to think these guys were upstanding members of the community!
Lastly, HE even admits he made a MISTAKE in doing what he did! I give him credit for his remorse.
Horn: "I would never advocate anyone doing what I did" (See Post #102 for source)
In the article, he says he wouldn't advocate it because of the emotional toil it has taken on him, not because he feels he was wrong in protecting himself.
quote:
No.
I am not defending criminals.
I am saying that murder is wrong. Whether it's a criminal or not that gets shot.
I mean, at least, that's what my Bible tells me.
Is defending yourself murder?
If I was on my own property and honestly thought that a known criminal was about to do me harm, is it okay for me to shoot them?
I'm curious what you think about that.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 11:10:19 AM
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6dj8
Posts: 30
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"Jeeeeeezzzzzz, You libs need to give it a rest; it is the law in Tecas that one can use lethal force to protect their or someelsed property. "
"Absolutely, and I was calling on Jesus to help put some common sense into the flaming liberal that defend criminal behavior. "
Calling on Jesus. Right. What ever you say. That's a bunch of manure, but whatever you say. One would think that with over 1 million words in the English language that everyone, me included, would be better able to express themselves without swearing on occassion, or faking it (when they actually do know better), but whatever you think.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 11:10:45 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2188
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Again!
At what point was he defending himself?
When the first thing he told the officer on the phone was that he was going to kill them?
When he continually refused to obey the officers commands?
When he unnecessarily went out into the yard with a loaded shotgun?
When he unnecessarily aimed to kill?
When he unnecessarily continued to fire at the robbers running away?
If they actually came into his house, and his life was actually in imminent danger, THEN and ONLY THEN would it be self defense.
He wasn't defending his life or anybody else's. He was defending the possibility that maybe some possessions would be stolen. And in the process of doing so, murdered in cold blood two men.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 11:22:26 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5250
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 6dj8
"Jeeeeeezzzzzz, You libs need to give it a rest; it is the law in Tecas that one can use lethal force to protect their or someelsed property. "
"Absolutely, and I was calling on Jesus to help put some common sense into the flaming liberal that defend criminal behavior. "
Calling on Jesus. Right. What ever you say. That's a bunch of manure, but whatever you say. One would think that with over 1 million words in the English language that everyone, me included, would be better able to express themselves without swearing on occassion, or faking it (when they actually do know better), but whatever you think.
You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it might be.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 11:24:12 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5250
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Again!
At what point was he defending himself?
When the first thing he told the officer on the phone was that he was going to kill them?
When he continually refused to obey the officers commands?
When he unnecessarily went out into the yard with a loaded shotgun?
When he unnecessarily aimed to kill?
When he unnecessarily continued to fire at the robbers running away?
If they actually came into his house, and his life was actually in imminent danger, THEN and ONLY THEN would it be self defense.
He wasn't defending his life or anybody else's. He was defending the possibility that maybe some possessions would be stolen. And in the process of doing so, murdered in cold blood two men.
The point of the incident being that he acted correctly according to Texas law.
If he had done the same thing elsewhere then he would probably be in jail.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 11:26:57 AM
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6dj8
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Some of that opinion you agree with, check your post in a thread about swearing in church.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 11:28:43 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1331
Joined: 7/31/2007
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When, according to the plainsclothes officer on the scene, one of the burglars started running in a way that brought him closer to Horn. When, according to Horn, he saw one of the men charge him. Both people on the scene agree that one of the burglars started to come at Horn, which is why Horn was not arrested on the scene and why Horn was acquitted. Wouldn't you know better, if someone was holding a gun on you, than to start running in their direction? Wouldn't you know better than to move in general?
As we've previously discussed, the dispatcher was probably not an officer and didn't identify himself as such if he were. Furthermore, you can say that Horn was getting somewhat conflicting ideas from the dispatcher, who was telling him not to leave the house, but urging him to figure out which way the burglars were going, which he couldn't see from inside the house.
Horn asserts he didn't aim at all, he was just terrified. He was trying to stop them from leaving when he went out there, but he was fearing for his own life when he shot.
As for me... I have been trained in defensive shooting, and we are told that if we shoot, we MUST shoot to kill, aiming center mass, because it's the ONLY way we have a chance at stopping an assailant, especially if they're on drugs or something. I've trained in doing so. It's not something I want to do, but if someone comes at me, I will defend myself. If you think that's murder, well, okay, but I'm not going to agree with you.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 11:30:10 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
The point of the incident being that he acted correctly according to Texas law.
If he had done the same thing elsewhere then he would probably be in jail.
Thanks
RC
I think that's about right. Based on what I saw/read/listened to, the man acted within the law (in Texas) but outside the bounds of common sense in that he quite possibly put himself in a position where a life was in jeopardy, all for the sake of property.
Morally, I can't get on board with that. Legally, he's not guilty.
It's an interesting case study though in how a series of incremental bad choices can lead to disastrous consequences.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 11:32:00 AM
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StephK
Posts: 1975
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 6dj8
Some of that opinion you agree with, check your post in a thread about swearing in church.
This has nothing to do with the topic. The topic is that in the state of Texas criminals risk getting shot and killed when they break the law. The message should be loud and clear. If you don't want to risk getting shot, then don't steal other people's property.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Communism "IS" socialism....
"How do you tell a Socialist:- It's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-Socialist someone who understands Marx and Lenin" -Ronald Reagan
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 12:14:20 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
6dj8, please keep your posts in this thread about the topic of this thread.
Thanks!
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 12:53:11 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2395
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Again!
At what point was he defending himself?
When the first thing he told the officer on the phone was that he was going to kill them?
When he continually refused to obey the officers commands?
When he unnecessarily went out into the yard with a loaded shotgun?
When he unnecessarily aimed to kill?
When he unnecessarily continued to fire at the robbers running away?
If they actually came into his house, and his life was actually in imminent danger, THEN and ONLY THEN would it be self defense.
He wasn't defending his life or anybody else's. He was defending the possibility that maybe some possessions would be stolen. And in the process of doing so, murdered in cold blood two men.
I agree with most of that.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 1:04:41 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10882
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Again!
At what point was he defending himself?
When the first thing he told the officer on the phone was that he was going to kill them?
When he continually refused to obey the officers commands?
When he unnecessarily went out into the yard with a loaded shotgun?
When he unnecessarily aimed to kill?
When he unnecessarily continued to fire at the robbers running away?
If they actually came into his house, and his life was actually in imminent danger, THEN and ONLY THEN would it be self defense.
He wasn't defending his life or anybody else's. He was defending the possibility that maybe some possessions would be stolen. And in the process of doing so, murdered in cold blood two men.
When he went out his front door to look for a license plate number but instead found the two CRIMINALS less than two paces away from him and he saw them move in his direction, THAT'S when he was defending himself. The rest of your post is just hyperbole.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 1:16:02 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2713
Joined: 11/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
I use an old Remington model 12 that holds 3 shells. A reasonably adept user could do 3 shots in about 3-5 seconds.
Sounds about rijght, maybe quicker at a large target close up.
I would advise taking the plug out of the model 12 when it is used at home for protection, gives a total of 5 rounds.
But you already knew that.
Thanks
RC
Don't tell me you're a Model 12 fan! Maybe we have more in common than I thought. I don't use it for home protection though. Up in the hills where we live, I worry about the 4 legged critters and not so much the 2 legged ones. The 4 legged critters are a whole lot easier to scare away.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 1:16:51 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5250
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
He wasn't defending his life or anybody else's. He was defending the possibility that maybe some possessions would be stolen. And in the process of doing so, murdered in cold blood two men.
The law in Texas allows folks to use deadly force to defend theirs or others property as well as their lives.
As I said, I do imagine the break-ins in that neighborhood are way way down.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 1:25:03 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10882
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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quote:
As I said, I do imagine the break-ins in that neighborhood are way way down. Quanell X, the New Black Panther party spokesmouth is going to have yet another little get together in protest of the grand jury's decision. THIS time he learned his lesson and is not going back into the Pasadena neighborhood, where he get shouted down and drowned out by the people who live there the last time. Gonna make it easier for the media too, by having it downtown this time. 
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 1:51:19 PM
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6dj8
Posts: 30
Joined: 6/30/2008
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At least we know that in Texas your stuff is worth more than some one's life. Maybe Mastercard could make a commercial.
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 1:56:48 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1975
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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If you watched the police video you would see that the CRIMINALS had at least a crow bar which they used to break into the neighbors house. Crow bars have been used as a deadly weapon many times. They were not yards away when he stepped out to get a physical description but just a few feet from his front door.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Communism "IS" socialism....
"How do you tell a Socialist:- It's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-Socialist someone who understands Marx and Lenin" -Ronald Reagan
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 8:35:26 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2188
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
If you watched the police video you would see that the CRIMINALS had at least a crow bar which they used to break into the neighbors house. Crow bars have been used as a deadly weapon many times. They were not yards away when he stepped out to get a physical description but just a few feet from his front door.
Couple things wrong with this. . .
First off, he had already given physical description.
Secondly, he wasn't stepping out to get another physical description.
Thirdly, if all they had was a crowbar, they are going to come after a guy with a shotgun. I can't see how firing was necessary.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 8:42:15 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1975
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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When you are in a state where the adrenaline is pumping freely you don't always think things through. It still comes down to the fact that the criminals brought this on themselves by breaking into someone else's home.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Communism "IS" socialism....
"How do you tell a Socialist:- It's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-Socialist someone who understands Marx and Lenin" -Ronald Reagan
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RE: Texas man cleared of killing suspected burglars - 7/3/2008 8:45:53 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1975
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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At least one of the criminals was a repeat offender with felonies. It's obvious he didn't learn his lesson from his previous run in with the law. If there were stricter penalties given for first time offenders it actually might be a deterrent however it's obvious that the current sentencing for crimes isn't working with the high recidivism rates. Because the criminal justice system is a joke it makes people like Joe Horn take matters into their own hands.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Communism "IS" socialism....
"How do you tell a Socialist:- It's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-Socialist someone who understands Marx and Lenin" -Ronald Reagan
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