RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ear tickler?
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/2/2008 10:30:30 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
"I don't practice what I preach...
... I preach what I practice."
Chris
That is the hebraic way fo the master. The disciples are discipled in the dust of the master.
More oft than not, esp in an institutional church setting, the organisation does not practice what is preached to the individuals. AND the organisation is led by the preacher! Hypocrasy? 
Shalom
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/3/2008 9:01:13 AM
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BibleL7
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Well when I preached I usually gave the Message I was given. As for it being tough some have said I have been harsh others no never had any say I tickled their ears. As for preaching what I practice that I sometimes can not do when I feel I need to preach the Word of God. Being single and no children I have given sermons on marriage and child rearing and though I had been told I was not one to preach the message by preachers those in the congregation who were married or having children thought the message was right on. Of course at times i have preached to my pastor and several other pastors I dont know what that has to do with tough preaching other than it being tough when you have pastors in a small group setting and they tend to take over teaching at times and makes it tough to keep control but not impossible. And of course it is sometimes hard when a pastor gets up and somewhat counters part of your message cause they did not like the way it was presented. Just sometimes ya need to know the areas of doctrine that the pastor disagrees with before preaching the section of Scripture. But then I did not back down on my teaching just knew not to bring that out in preaching again with that pastor.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/3/2008 12:42:56 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
prophet,
Good thoughts! As a pastor myself, I have adopted a philosophy I learned from my old youth pastor, Dave Koop (who is now a senior pastor). He said this:
"I don't practice what I preach...
... I preach what I practice."
I like that. That's a healthy was for pastors to minister the Word! That's why I tell my people that when I preach a hard word, its because God's getting on me, so I'm getting on you... :)
That certainly sounds reasonable. I have sat under ministers who were themselves very angry people and when they finished their sermon or lesson, what they had was frustrated, angry and guilt ridden people who simply had no way to articulate or vent the frustrations the minister dumped on them.
What's more, they didn't have any idea where to find relief. Every suggestion, word or comment could be a cause for guilt, some of which was unnecessary.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/3/2008 12:52:06 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
prophet,
Good thoughts! As a pastor myself, I have adopted a philosophy I learned from my old youth pastor, Dave Koop (who is now a senior pastor). He said this:
"I don't practice what I preach...
... I preach what I practice."
I like that. That's a healthy was for pastors to minister the Word! That's why I tell my people that when I preach a hard word, its because God's getting on me, so I'm getting on you... :)
That certainly sounds reasonable. I have sat under ministers who were themselves very angry people and when they finished their sermon or lesson, what they had was frustrated, angry and guilt ridden people who simply had no way to articulate or vent the frustrations the minister dumped on them.
What's more, they didn't have any idea where to find relief. Every suggestion, word or comment could be a cause for guilt, some of which was unnecessary.
Maybe they were preaching "in the flesh" and not of the Spirit.
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I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/3/2008 1:50:15 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Its interesting to me that if some preacher is loud, direct, convicting, even highly passionate and supercharged.....that preacher must have some inward psych problem, anger, stress, frustration etc etc.
I consider a minister that never gets angry, never gets passionate, never seeks to move his people as being as close to dead as one can get. The emotions of man dont run on some yoga-chanting plane from the pulpit anymoreso than they do at a football game.
When the vast majority of preachers are just happy go luckies, maybe youre looking at the problem at its root? Maybe that minister is so disconnected from God that he really cant get upset with sin cause he's living in it so deeply hes deceived himself? Maybe he cant be passionate because he doenst believe very strongly about anything?
When we read the scriptures do they create no emotion? Do they all fall dead-pan on our concrete filled ears? When a preacher is passionate about the offering and dead about sin what does that say? What kind of man are you listening to that still smiles and quickly tells a joke after mentioning the "seperation from God'? I say seperation from God because they are too intimidated by the spirit of the congregation to say the word hell in any fashion that denotes the fearfulness of the place.
No, I think the happy happies are problem the silly anecdotal preachers, the humorus joke tellers, the softy men that think their points will come across 'inductively'...but instead its just another vague grey clouding of the gospel.
Away with jokers and give us men that hate the world and sin and Love God and sinners and are willing to sacrifice all to obey God....thats the examples we need.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/3/2008 3:10:06 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
Its interesting to me that if some preacher is loud, direct, convicting, even highly passionate and supercharged.....that preacher must have some inward psych problem, anger, stress, frustration etc etc.
I consider a minister that never gets angry, never gets passionate, never seeks to move his people as being as close to dead as one can get. The emotions of man dont run on some yoga-chanting plane from the pulpit anymoreso than they do at a football game.
I am not suggesting that they should never get angry or passionate. I am talking about those who use anger as form of manipulating people into guilt.
But a minister can preach or teach a logical and calm sermon and be more persuasive to me than one who simply vents. I do look for a logical presentation. If a man tells me what he intends to show from the Bible and doesn't deliver, it doesn't matter how passionate he is. I am looking for a well prepared sermon. I'm probably not the most emotional person in the world. And I don't disdain emotion. But I am looking for substance, not emotion.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/3/2008 3:21:19 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
I am not suggesting that they should never get angry or passionate. I am talking about those who use anger as form of manipulating people into guilt.
But a minister can preach or teach a logical and calm sermon and be more persuasive to me than one who simply vents. I do look for a logical presentation. If a man tells me what he intends to show from the Bible and doesn't deliver, it doesn't matter how passionate he is. I am looking for a well prepared sermon. I'm probably not the most emotional person in the world. And I don't disdain emotion. But I am looking for substance, not emotion.
ok now we have gone from my original query - i.e. can you handle tough preaching down to guys getting up there venting.. Two opposite things. One is done in the Spirit and one is done in the flesh perhaps.
I asked can you handle tough preaching which means (not venting or being in the flesh).. but PREACHING, not just yelling,, we are not talking about plain ol ranting.
of course if you are just hearing ranting in the flesh, of course you will not be spiritually fed. Lets keep in mind these two are polar opposites.
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I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/3/2008 3:51:44 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
ok now we have gone from my original query - i.e. can you handle tough preaching down to guys getting up there venting.. Two opposite things. One is done in the Spirit and one is done in the flesh perhaps.
I asked can you handle tough preaching which means (not venting or being in the flesh).. but PREACHING, not just yelling,, we are not talking about plain ol ranting.
of course if you are just hearing ranting in the flesh, of course you will not be spiritually fed. Lets keep in mind these two are polar opposites.
Well. I just didn't want us to confuse "tough preaching" with angry preaching. Both can be rather intimidating.
I think you mean what I would call "challenging preaching." IOW, it challenges us to improve ourselves in light of God's word. Sometimes, I can but sometimes I cannot. Often, a minister will give illustrations on family relationships that challenge me to manage my family better. I have a difficult time with that because not all families cooperate equally.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/3/2008 4:43:56 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
Its interesting to me that if some preacher is loud, direct, convicting, even highly passionate and supercharged.....that preacher must have some inward psych problem, anger, stress, frustration etc etc.
I consider a minister that never gets angry, never gets passionate, never seeks to move his people as being as close to dead as one can get. The emotions of man dont run on some yoga-chanting plane from the pulpit anymoreso than they do at a football game.
I enjoy passionate preaching, too. I don't think passionate always equals volume, though. Still, loudness doesn't necessarily bother me, assuming it fits with the personality of that particular person. Some preachers are loud and others are soft spoken, and there's nothing wrong with that. What bothers me is the preachers who spend their energies beating the flock each week. Satan does a good enough job accusing the brethern, we don't need our pastors helping him out.
Don't get me wrong--I love a good sermon that convicts and challenges. I think it's great when pastors preach the Word like it is without being worried about who might be offended.
I'll try and post an example of what I'm talking about.
Here's the right way to preach: "The Bible says to do everything without grumbling or complaining. That means that we should not grumble or complain about things. We need to search our hearts and see if we are grumbling and complaining."
Here's the kind of preaching that bothers me, whether it's loud or soft. "The Bible says to do everything without grumbling and complaining, and because you are all a bunch of grumblers and complainers, you are not right with God. You need to get saved now or you're going to end up in hell."
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/3/2008 5:16:50 PM
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URForgiven
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God does not appeal to our emotions. He appeals to our minds. We grow, we are transformed, as Christians, through the renewing of our mind. (Romans 12:2)
Having our mind renewed, and the resultant transformation, is an emotional experience. But, we are not transformed by having our emotions stimulated. Our emotions merely respond to what we are thinking. This is why it is important to think correctly. And to think correctly requires the renewing of our mind.
Jesus Christ is the Truth. We are all bound by the error we believe, and the only solution to error is Truth. We need truth in order grow in freedom, and a preachers job, our job, is to share what truth we have been given with those who need that truth. Truth renews our mind, and that renewing of our mind is what transforms us into the image of Christ.
Peace
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/3/2008 5:30:35 PM
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teclils
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
quote:
I am not suggesting that they should never get angry or passionate. I am talking about those who use anger as form of manipulating people into guilt.
But a minister can preach or teach a logical and calm sermon and be more persuasive to me than one who simply vents. I do look for a logical presentation. If a man tells me what he intends to show from the Bible and doesn't deliver, it doesn't matter how passionate he is. I am looking for a well prepared sermon. I'm probably not the most emotional person in the world. And I don't disdain emotion. But I am looking for substance, not emotion.
ok now we have gone from my original query - i.e. can you handle tough preaching down to guys getting up there venting.. Two opposite things. One is done in the Spirit and one is done in the flesh perhaps.
I asked can you handle tough preaching which means (not venting or being in the flesh).. but PREACHING, not just yelling,, we are not talking about plain ol ranting.
of course if you are just hearing ranting in the flesh, of course you will not be spiritually fed. Lets keep in mind these two are polar opposites.
Yes I can espeically if it makes me look at myself and show me that what I am doing is NOT of GOD ...if it makes me walk on the right path and moves me closer to GOD....infact I would rather have that kind of preaching otherwise I would not grow....sometimes I need to SNAP out of it...I don't care what the preacher looks like or what kind of house they live in etc ...I know if what is coming out of their mouths is of HOLY SPIRIT or not...if it is guilt ridden that is not GOD but if it makes me look at the Right path then it is of GOD...
I don't want some dull flesh speech...I want MEAT good spirit filled meat that draws me closer to GOD the FATHER , JESUS the Son and HOLY SPIRIT..
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/4/2008 7:52:42 AM
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lexie
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I can definitely handle tough preaching, my pastor is great at it!
However, I don't want to hear it every Sunday. It definitely has it's time and is needed in the churches today, but there are many other not so tough lessons that we can take away from church as well and apply to our lives.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/4/2008 8:36:23 AM
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Eric B
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To clarify over here for those who don't know the issue of the other thread. The issue with Paul Washer was not "Tough Preaching" in terms of loudness or fervor, or even Hell preaching in itself, but rather the "Lordship Salvation" message that aims to address all the sin in the Church by claiming most people aren't saved, and that to claim to be saved, the new convert has to already be producing "fruit". In other words, it is a very "works"-based message.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/4/2008 8:42:33 AM
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Consecrated2God
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Is he a revivalist or a pastor or what? To whom are his sermons directed?
quote:
claiming most people aren't saved, and that to claim to be saved, the new convert has to already be producing "fruit".
What does he mean by "already producing?" At the time of conversion? By the next day?
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/4/2008 10:00:36 AM
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J_Michael80
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quote:
original: Eric B
To clarify over here for those who don't know the issue of the other thread. The issue with Paul Washer was not "Tough Preaching" in terms of loudness or fervor, or even Hell preaching in itself, but rather the "Lordship Salvation" message that aims to address all the sin in the Church by claiming most people aren't saved, and that to claim to be saved, the new convert has to already be producing "fruit". In other words, it is a very "works"-based message.
Thats really interesting because I thought your issue was trying to defend Joel Olsteen...........
quote:
original: Eric B
So the next time, if you ever see someone get upset at his apparently constant denunciation of Joel Olsteen (who I myself do not care for, but don't see anyone here getting that angry for his sake), then just think about this! But it is OK for Washer to dog Joel Olsteen, though. Of course, Olsteen is "false," and Washer is "just true," right?
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/4/2008 1:24:13 PM
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yustme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
hmmmmm, then MAYBE just MAYBE if the Holy Ghost is there, a person can speak mildly and still make an impact? what say you?
It doesn't matter how loud or soft a preacher is,If there wasn't a lot of prayer and fasting occuring before the service then we're just going through the motions and the HS is not present.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/4/2008 2:00:57 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Before anyone takes a diversion into Lordship salvation, there is a topic with 16 pages of reading on the subject.
http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_2516815/mpage_1/tm.htm
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/4/2008 9:11:52 PM
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Eric B
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_
Thats really interesting because I thought your issue was trying to defend Joel Olsteen...........
Yeah; that's what you assumed all along, isn't it? But right in the second quote:
...Joel Olsteen (who I myself do not care for...
The issue was not defending Olsteen, it was that you and others were getting upset that anyone would criticize washer, as if criticism was wrong in itself, yet Washer criticizes Olsteen (much harsher than anyone criticizes Washer). Now if Washer thinks Olsteen is wrong; fine, but then some of us think Washer is wrong on some points, and you can't say that he's special that he's above any criticism.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/4/2008 9:40:40 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eric B
quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_
Thats really interesting because I thought your issue was trying to defend Joel Olsteen...........
Yeah; that's what you assumed all along, isn't it? But right in the second quote:
...Joel Olsteen (who I myself do not care for...
The issue was not defending Olsteen, it was that you and others were getting upset that anyone would criticize washer, as if criticism was wrong in itself, yet Washer criticizes Olsteen (much harsher than anyone criticizes Washer). Now if Washer thinks Olsteen is wrong; fine, but then some of us think Washer is wrong on some points, and you can't say that he's special that he's above any criticism.
One of the core differences is that Joel Osteen is wrong on items that are on the core essentials of Christianity. He preaches a gospel and a Jesus foreign to those revealed in Scripture.
We have a dedicated thread chuck full of documentation (audio, video, written) where Joel's teachings are tested in light of Scripture.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/5/2008 8:39:52 AM
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Eric B
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And Washer is wrong on a couple of core essentials too; probably even more essential (salvation issues) that whatever Olsteen errs on (I do not know much at all about his teaching, other than him just being very popular). But this cannot even be mentioned without fans screaming "slander".
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/5/2008 11:28:39 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eric B
And Washer is wrong on a couple of core essentials too; probably even more essential (salvation issues) that whatever Olsteen errs on (I do not know much at all about his teaching, other than him just being very popular). But this cannot even be mentioned without fans screaming "slander".
You just admitted you're not too familiar with Osteen's teachings, so how can you rightly say the above? Just wondering..
As it has been mentioned already - there is a Osteen thread for your own study. Let's always get equipped (1 Peter 3:15).
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/5/2008 11:46:52 AM
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J_Michael80
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quote:
orginal: earthless
You just admitted you're not too familiar with Osteen's teachings, so how can you rightly say the above?
Go figure 
quote:
original: earthless
As it has been mentioned already - there is a Osteen thread for your own study.
This was partially my fault. I brought up Osteen to make a point against Eric. Yes, there is definitely a one-stop thread for all Osteen fans and vice versa. So please take this topic there.
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/5/2008 5:01:12 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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Please lets not get into a bashing topic again about our brother in Christ Paul Washer. This is not about him, but about being able to handle tough preaching.
I will not let this thread be used to further the hate against our dear brother in Christ.
May God have mercy on the souls of those that need salvation.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Can You Handle Tough Preaching? or are you just an ... - 7/5/2008 9:34:27 PM
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Eric B
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
You just admitted you're not too familiar with Osteen's teachings, so how can you rightly say the above? Just wondering.. quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_
Go figure
Because I know what Washer is criticizing him about, yet some of what Washer is saying strikes at the heart of the Good News even worse. (To keep it on topic with this thread, people just like it just because it's "tough", and they think "toughness" equals "truth". If you want tough, you can always go back to the OT!)
quote:
As it has been mentioned already - there is a Osteen thread for your own study. Let's always get equipped (1 Peter 3:15).
"Equipped"? That verse is telling us to always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is in you. What's an Olsteen thread got to do with that? It doesn't matter at all what Olsteen teaches. It's not about him at all. This is just another deflectionary tactic. And it's the refuting of people who would take away all hope because they decide nearly all Christians aren't doing good enough for salvation, that fulfils that verse.
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