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RE: physical contact - 7/10/2008 1:59:28 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1899
Joined: 9/26/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LawrenceJCaldwell
Marriage is simple enough to understand. It is a God-ordained relationship between a man and a woman. The purpose of this chapter is not to tell you how to get to that relationship the right way. It’s to warn you of the wrong ways. <>
Well said, LawrenceJCaldwell. Bravo!
I'm looking forward to your book is coming out.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: physical contact - 7/11/2008 7:40:02 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7729
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
I really believe the first kiss should be on the wedding day.
We've established that this is your personal belief. But not everyone shares that same belief. Nor will everyone fall into sexual immorality before marriage based on a personal belief.
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
Actually, I may be wrong, but I believe you have made it a public matter by discussing it in the forums.
I made it public with the intentions that it wouldn't be taken out of context. Which, being on these forums for so long, I should've learned my lesson by now.
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ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
I was merely trying to encourage you in what I believed would be a WISER choice.
I appreciate your concern, but I know full well where I stand on the issue. If I knew I was in dire need of assistance, I would certainly seek it.
It may be the wiser choice for you. My point is, not everyone is built identical.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: physical contact - 7/11/2008 7:42:25 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7729
Joined: 6/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KellDog
I personally havn't met a man that doesnt get turned by kissing a young lady that he is attracted to.
That is entirely inevitable, and I'm not specifically limiting that to kissing or other physical contact.
My natural visual instincts arouse attraction. It's something I, nor any other man could prevent unless they be locked away in a padded cell. You can, however, prevent the depth of that attraction, which ultimately leads to you going too far, via self-control.
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However Many young women don't realize that for most men a strong kiss is an invitation for the "launch sequence" to begin like God intended.
I knew before I kissed her that my flight into sexual space would be delayed until a ring was around her finger. I have no problems with that whatsoever.
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I just think that sometimes young ladies dont realize how mens bodies really work or how quickly young men can get excited.
There doesn't even have to be kissing for that to happen. A mere sight can cause such a reaction.
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My point is that if somebody is kissing his/her sig other in a way that is passionate enough for other body parts to physically alter then you are going too far.
Again, a mere visual sight is able to cause this. There doesn't even have to be anything phyical involved for such bodily reactions to occur. It's encoded in our DNA and it's unchangable.
It's not fair to fault us for that.
quote:
Why not just get married sooner if it is Gods choice?
I would love to, but as our relationship was built on His timing, so shall be that moment. If it was up to me, we'd be married by the end of this week.
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I like the idea of courtship with friends and family followed by a brief personal dating period say maybe a month or so then marriage...
Fyi, most of our time spent together has been with family. I hate for it to sound like we're constantly making out in a corner. We do have some us time, but for the most part, it is divided rather equally into interaction with family.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: physical contact - 7/11/2008 8:17:41 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7729
Joined: 6/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
I am not attacking Mandicoot or Grapeape so please don't get protective of one another on me.
I'm naturally protective of her. Unfortunately, I just ran out of mouse traps, so you should be safe.... for now. 
quote:
The immediate following words in that sentence are regarding avoiding sin by getting married. Avoiding sexual sin, specifically
Under the assumption physical contact was causing her or I to stumble, I would certainly lay off. The least that I want to do is to become a stumbling block amidst the pathway of her walk with Christ.
Please understand something, I don't want any of you getting the assumption that this physical contact is constant and reoccurring, because that would be the furtherest thing from the truth. In fact, it is the most infrequent thing in our relationship.
We have spent more time talking and growing on a deeper, spiritual, and personal level than we have on a physical/intimate level.
quote:
Kissing is a sexual thrill and has it's proper place in the dance leading to intercourse.
I agree. Yet, I don't believe kissing is solely a sexual thrill. You don't receive that thrill while kissing a relative or loved one, do you? Kissing is mostly controlled my emotions, and self-control controls your emotions.
If I were kissing with the intention of something more, I would immediately stop, but that has never been my intention. My heart isn't willing to go further than that; a kiss.
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"I'm going to touch my girlfriend (not wife) and it's OK" is in danger of making their opinion more important than God's Word. That's not a good place to be.
Firstly, I don't believe it is "OK". I'm very specific as to where my hands are, and where they won't be.
I'm not so arrogant to say I could never fall from any of this, because that would be a lie, I'm simply human. I can, however, prevent it by constantly bringing myself before God with His strength that I may never fall in such a rut.
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Being married gives a person a perspective they didn't have before: my mate's body is MINE and mine is his. Scripture backs this up. 1 Cor. 7:4
This is something to specifically to look forward to. To become one flesh as one unit under one savior.
I have prayed until my turn has turned twenty different colors on whether or not the relationship was right, or whether to continue or just stop. I didn't want to begin a relationship unless I knew entirely that relationship was going to last forever.
I feel God has given us both that reassurance. I wouldn't be showing that sort of affection if I didn't feel the assurance that she is the one God has chosen for me.
... and this was long before any physical contact came along.
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So to insist on physically "showing love" to someone a person is not married to seems to usurp marriage and brush off what God has told us.
God bases everything on the intention of one's heart. If the intention is wrong, then it's obvious. However, "showing love" doesn't necessarily mean opening the doors to sexual immorality. I could be "showing love" by simply shaking her hand.
If that were to lead to sexual immorality, then there is no hope for our generation.
... but, for the most part, I agree with you.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: physical contact - 7/11/2008 9:39:37 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1899
Joined: 9/26/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
I'm naturally protective of her. Unfortunately, I just ran out of mouse traps, so you should be safe.... for now.
Hahaha! I guess I'd better get used to hearing this (but you were the first).
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Under the assumption physical contact was causing her or I to stumble, I would certainly lay off. The least that I want to do is to become a stumbling block amidst the pathway of her walk with Christ.
God says it's not good to touch a woman. I looked at the verse again, but I didn't see any "except" clause following those words mentioning your name. So here's my question: *Can* you *not* touch her? If you can control yourself so you don't have to touch her, and you know God says it isn't good, then why are you doing it? The best truck driver is not the one who sees how close to the edge of the cliff he can drive but how far away from it he can stay. I submit you're already a couple wheels over the edge and insisting it's a good thing.
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Please understand something, I don't want any of you getting the assumption that this physical contact is constant and reoccurring, because that would be the furtherest thing from the truth. In fact, it is the most infrequent thing in our relationship.
We have spent more time talking and growing on a deeper, spiritual, and personal level than we have on a physical/intimate level.
This is encouraging. But why are you touching her when the Bible says it's not good?
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Yet, I don't believe kissing is solely a sexual thrill. You don't receive that thrill while kissing a relative or loved one, do you? Kissing is mostly controlled my emotions, and self-control controls your emotions.
I submit that self-control is your brain and will running the show inspite of emotions. The brain works on ideas, like, don't do X no matter what you feel like. Or do do Y even if you don't feel like it. The emotions kind of spin off on their own power and do weird things sometimes (especially if you had pizza for breakfast. You know what I mean). They don't run the show, or shouldn't.
And no, I'm not thrilled kissing my relatives. They're mostly older and even uglier than me. 
quote:
quote:
"I'm going to touch my girlfriend (not wife) and it's OK" is in danger of making their opinion more important than God's Word. That's not a good place to be.
Firstly, I don't believe it is "OK". I'm very specific as to where my hands are, and where they won't be.
I'm not so arrogant to say I could never fall from any of this, because that would be a lie, I'm simply human. I can, however, prevent it by constantly bringing myself before God with His strength that I may never fall in such a rut.
I think the Bible clears indicates your hands shouldn't be anywhere on her. I'm glad you're trusting God, which puts you at the head of the class, but why are you putting yourself in a position to trust God when He said don't be there in the first place?
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quote:
Being married gives a person a perspective they didn't have before: my mate's body is MINE and mine is his. Scripture backs this up. 1 Cor. 7:4
This is something to specifically to look forward to. To become one flesh as one unit under one savior.
Amen! May God bless your marriage in every way!
quote:
I have prayed until my turn has turned twenty different colors on whether or not the relationship was right, or whether to continue or just stop. I didn't want to begin a relationship unless I knew entirely that relationship was going to last forever.
I feel God has given us both that reassurance. I wouldn't be showing that sort of affection if I didn't feel the assurance that she is the one God has chosen for me.
Show your affection after the wedding - that's where it belongs. Kissing can melt your brain (metaphorically) and keep you from thinking clearly about whether this relationship should move to marriage or not. You wouldn't buy a car while still blasted on drugs from major surgery, would you? This is more important than a car, it's your life partner and mother of your children. You need to be thinking clearly, and hearing God clearly. If you are disobeying God in some area, He's going to want you to fix that before He tells you what to do elsewhere.
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... and this was long before any physical contact came along.
That's good. Why are you touching her now - you're not married yet.
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quote:
So to insist on physically "showing love" to someone a person is not married to seems to usurp marriage and brush off what God has told us.
God bases everything on the intention of one's heart.
This is dangerously out of context: God judges sin, taking into consideration intention. I challenge your understanding of Scripture if you mistake God's judgement of sin in the world with how a Christian is supposed to handle temptation.
quote:
If the intention is wrong, then it's obvious. However, "showing love" doesn't necessarily mean opening the doors to sexual immorality. I could be "showing love" by simply shaking her hand.
The context of the verse is of touching and sexual immorality. You can't just brush God off like that, Grapeape. Is your need to touch Mandicoot clouding your judgement and causing you to take a stand that is opposite to God-inspired Scripture so you can excuse your behavior? I'm not getting shirty here, I'm just taking your words and showing you've backed youself into a corner that can't be defended. God says it's not good. Why are you doing it anyway? (hint: because you want to. A man wants to touch the lovely love of his life. No criticism there. God says get married, and you aren't. You're touching without marriage. That's the sticking point. Please fix it. Don't touch her again until you are standing next to her in a big white dress in front of a preacher)(Sorry, that sentence is ambiguous. The white dress is for her, not you).
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If that were to lead to sexual immorality, then there is no hope for our generation.
There is no hope for any generation except Jesus Christ. He did it all, and we do nothing for salvation. We are sinners who do the wrong things until He saves us and starts changing our lives. At that point, He calls us to do something: obey Him. And a big part of it is our chastity. No sex before marriage, lots of sex afterwards. No touching except in marriage. Are you trying to obey God in every way you know? He says it's not good to touch a woman. That means touching a woman is bad. Or evil, depending on how you want to set up your opposites. Are you willing to obey God in this matter? Will this be the "little thing" that slowly slides you down to gross sin? Every person who falls starts with a little sin and lets it grow unhindered. It's protected and sheltered. Big sins don't suddenly show up out of nowhere.
Would you like to show us the proper Greek words and grammar that the Bible translators have all gotten wrong all these years? It's not good to touch a woman. You are touching a woman. Therefore your actions are not good. God said so. Do you think you should reconsider your standards? I'm not being insulting or sarcastic here, but am challenging you to think this through logically. Your stand is indefensible. Go to one that is, that agrees with God. You're a Christian, that's your job.
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... but, for the most part, I agree with you.
That flipped my mind... What is it that you agree with?
I get it that you're not a roaring hormonal maniac but a man who wants to please God and to marry the right way. Kudos to you for that, GrapeApe! I think the ease of casual man/woman interaction is tempting you to brush off a point of Scripture, and it's an easy one to fix. Stop touching that dear woman. Mandicoot, stop touching GrapeApe. Set a wedding date and get on with life together. I'll be dancing with joy for you both. 
And go get some mouse traps. God bless you both.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: physical contact - 7/13/2008 7:19:30 AM
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ebony101
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/1/2007
From: the big blue marble
Status: offline
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I didn't have time and the foritification  to read all 54 prior posts, so I'll just say my bit.
It all depends on the two individuals involved. There are some guys whose hands I hold and that's that. Then there are others where hand-holding is a definite spine-tingling experience. Now I wouldn't have known this if I had kept my hands to myself, but I'm kind of glad that I didn't. Had I kept my hands to myself I wouldn't have known that there's a difference in holding hands between two people. I now know that I don't want to marry a guy whose hand-holding is blah and bland.
Now please don't attack my views, & start to compare hand holding to sex before marriage or kissing or anything like that. It's simply what I said it is hand holding. I'd be foolish to want to sample sex before marriage.
Now I do think that when we make certain statements we must look at them from a general point of view , i.e. what does it mean for life in general when we say x, y & z. Generally, I don't know God as a loving father who would say that women are evil and not to be touched. I do know that when God made us he said: "It is good." And I think that I'm going to stand on that since Jesus died for us all to be worthy to enter into the presence of God. I don't think that he died just for one gender or for the Israelites only. Self-esteem & a lot of other factors also come to mind, but I don't think I will go there, because I'd be veering away from the point of this thread.
_____________________________
'We're writing a gospel, a chapter each day,
By the things that we do & the words that we say.'
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RE: physical contact - 7/13/2008 10:50:56 AM
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deermousie
Posts: 1899
Joined: 9/26/2007
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"It is good for a man not to touch a woman. But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband."
1 Cor. 7: 1,2
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: physical contact - 7/13/2008 12:32:14 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 615
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
Status: online
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i think that there are 2 sides to each coin then of course the middle. What I hear is that some people believe that holding hands and kissing (and I don't mean all out French kissing) is inappropriate for marriage. Then you have the other side of the coin where is seems as if everything except intercourse is ok up to marriage.
I have seen seen both ruin marriages . On one side of this coin you have the no touchers, when they got married they had never shown physical touches to each other. In fact my friend was outright fearful they didn't know how, after about 3 years in this pursuit they got divorced.
On the other hand I had a good friend that went way to far, and sexual sin seemd to be the God of their dating and the distruction of their marriage.
Both are very sad and heart breaking, both were missing one thing in the whole equation, the leading of the Holy Spirit and counsel from Godly people they could trust in and have a relationship with.
As a few have said holding hand is to much for some, for some kissing is ok, but somewhere we have to work it out with God. We set up all these rules in hoping to please God when we just need to go to Him and ask him to help us to please Him.
For me I kissed my wife before we were married, Almost always on her forehead because it gave her affirmation. I held her hand, because I wanted her to know that I would be there for her. I think everything we do my friends should have a purpose.
G
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: physical contact - 7/13/2008 3:04:11 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7729
Joined: 6/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
God says it's not good to touch a woman. I looked at the verse again, but I didn't see any "except" clause following those words mentioning your name.
I, too, looked at the contexts of the verse.
It merely says carnal copulation is wrong. Carnal copulation is sexual intercourse, not holding hands/etc.
Nowhere in my Bible does it say "do not touch a woman". If that were so, should I never hug my mother? Should I refuse to help an elderly woman across the street? Should I not lay my hands on a woman when they ask me to pray over them to accept Christ?
The content was regarding sexual intercourse, as in "do not lie with a woman unless lawfully married".
quote:
So here's my question: *Can* you *not* touch her? If you can control yourself so you don't have to touch her, and you know God says it isn't good, then why are you doing it?
Paul said, "I say this as a concession, not as a command. (not I, but the Lord)"
That verse is referring to sexual intercourse.
I'm not going to avoid holding her hand merely because of misquoted scripture.
quote:
This is encouraging. But why are you touching her when the Bible says it's not good?
1 Corinthians 7: 1-2
1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.
Paul was speaking his opinion based on his personal convictions. He said it was better not to marry, but then later saying it was his concession and that "each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that."
God made it clear that sexual immorality/intercourse/etc IS wrong. He never said that holding my girlfriend's hand is carnal copulation.
quote:
And no, I'm not thrilled kissing my relatives. They're mostly older and even uglier than me.
Alright, so why are you assuming every kiss is a sexual one?
Can't a kiss be a mere physical action of saying, "I love you."?
Everything isn't sexual.
quote:
I think the Bible clears indicates your hands shouldn't be anywhere on her.
Apparently, by your logic, Jesus would be quick to condemn solely because I laid my hands on her to pray.
Sorry, but nowhere in my Bible does God directly say "do not touch a woman". He says not to engage in sexual immorality, which is what the contexts of that verse if referring to, not in a literal sense.
And I hugged my mother last night. Should I believe I'm hell bound because my flesh brushed against her? I think not.
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Amen! May God bless your marriage in every way!
Thank you.
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That's good. Why are you touching her now - you're not married yet.
I won't repeat myself again, but it goes back to what I've wrote in this post.
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This is dangerously out of context:
How ironic.
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The context of the verse is of touching and sexual immorality.
You are right. Except, it's sexually immoral touching. It doesn't say "thou shall not hold hands".
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God says it's not good.
Paul said it wasn't good. Then following he said, "this is a concession, not a command."
Touching CAN be wrong. But holding her hand or simply putting my arm around her is NOT going to condemn me.
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Why are you doing it anyway?
Because I love her. Because I want to show her affection. Not because I want sex.
That is a false assumption.
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Don't touch her again until you are standing next to her in a big white dress in front of a preacher.
I won't promise that. You're saying I shouldn't show her that I love her at all outside of my words.
I guess high-fives and all the friendly gestures are a sin, too. God forbid we focus on those.
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No sex before marriage, lots of sex afterwards. No touching except in marriage.
God said the first rule, but I have yet to find where He disallows the second.
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That means touching a woman is bad.
If touching a woman is bad, I am in danger of being around my own mother.
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It's not good to touch a woman. You are touching a woman. Therefore your actions are not good. God said so.
You said so. God did not say by merely touching a woman you are sinning.
If that were true, I would have no hope of salvation, because I hug and pray over many of the elder women at church.
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Do you think you should reconsider your standards?
Everything that I have done in this relationship, I have went to God beforehand. Yet, I am left unconvicted.
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What is it that you agree with?
That marriage is a sacred bond that shouldn't be tampered with. If I were convicted, I surely wouldn't go near her.
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I think the ease of casual man/woman interaction is tempting you to brush off a point of Scripture
Again, it's a concession, not a command.
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Set a wedding date and get on with life together.
It's not THAT easy.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: physical contact - 7/14/2008 1:23:27 AM
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ChoirDJ
Posts: 473
Joined: 6/15/2006
From: So Cal
Status: offline
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Okay guys...I think we can put this issue to rest already. Everyone has expressed their "opinions/concerns/convictions from the scriptures" about making physical contact and this thread seems to have turned into a quarrel if I'm being honest. GrapeApe is still a young man and hopefully he will consider the wisdom of what's been posted here. No one is going to change his mind at this point and it really is between him and God. The scriptures teach that God will not be mocked and he is far more aware of the situation that anyone. One of two things are going to happen. Either things will go well for GrapeApe or he will end up crossing some boundaries and having to learn some lessons the hard way. Either way, we have to step back and allow him to make his choices just as we should be allowed to make our choices (good, bad,or indifferent).
_____________________________
"Sin will take you further than you intended to go, keep you there longer than you intended to stay, and cost you more than you intended to spend." Got it?
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RE: physical contact - 7/14/2008 1:44:21 AM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2675
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
.I think we can put this issue to rest already. Everyone has expressed their "opinions/concerns/convictions from the scriptures"
That's why I had decided I wasn't going to post again in this thread. Deermousie said what I was trying to say and said it better, and there was no more to be said.
Thank you, choir DJ.
_____________________________
Now thank we all our God, with hearts and hands and voices, what wondrous things He's done, in whom the world rejoices.
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RE: physical contact - 7/14/2008 2:05:55 AM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7729
Joined: 6/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChoirDJ
No one is going to change his mind at this point and it really is between him and God.
Thank you for being the first to acknowledge that.
quote:
Either way, we have to step back and allow him to make his choices just as we should be allowed to make our choices (good, bad,or indifferent).
Yes, my choices that are first taken to God. Who has full understanding of my personal life, and all things which go on inside of it. As far as I'm aware, no one else possesses that knowledge.
I consider advice, but I disregard anything that is being forced or personal attacks and labelling.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: physical contact - 7/14/2008 4:20:53 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1899
Joined: 9/26/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChoirDJ
Okay guys...I think we can put this issue to rest already. Everyone has expressed their "opinions/concerns/convictions from the scriptures" about making physical contact and this thread seems to have turned into a quarrel if I'm being honest. GrapeApe is still a young man and hopefully he will consider the wisdom of what's been posted here. No one is going to change his mind at this point and it really is between him and God. The scriptures teach that God will not be mocked and he is far more aware of the situation that anyone. One of two things are going to happen. Either things will go well for GrapeApe or he will end up crossing some boundaries and having to learn some lessons the hard way. Either way, we have to step back and allow him to make his choices just as we should be allowed to make our choices (good, bad,or indifferent).
Well put, ChoirDJ. May God bless us all and be glorified!
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: physical contact - 7/14/2008 11:48:23 PM
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Godsone
Posts: 40
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline
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thanks everyone for replying. I got some really good insight
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