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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 1:37:56 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2920
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lapidoth
If we can't see the difference in what constitutes murder or justice,
we're some pretty sick puppies.
This needed repeating and in larger type. 
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 1:43:05 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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There are several examples in the Bible where mercy is shown instead of carrying out the death sentence which would be just, and this mercy is praised, not condemned as unjust. The "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth", even before it was revoked by Christ, was there as a limit for vengeance, a maximum, more than the minimum that people like it to be. There's nothing which says mercy cannot be shown, because it is shown in many examples and praised when it is. However, there aren't examples that I can think of which show praise for going over the maximum sentence, for example death as a penalty for thievery.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 3:56:28 PM
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loloidong
Posts: 60
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: Seattle, WA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
There are several examples in the Bible where mercy is shown instead of carrying out the death sentence which would be just, and this mercy is praised, not condemned as unjust. The "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth", even before it was revoked by Christ, was there as a limit for vengeance, a maximum, more than the minimum that people like it to be. There's nothing which says mercy cannot be shown, because it is shown in many examples and praised when it is. However, there aren't examples that I can think of which show praise for going over the maximum sentence, for example death as a penalty for thievery.
Let's examine them. Can you give us these examples?
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 4:13:02 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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Look at Deuteronomy 4 and 19, Joshua 20, Numbers 35. One could even look at Genesis 4 as an example of mercy.
Aside from that, look at the restrictions placed on the death penalty. It was a religious ceremony rather than a civil routine. Looking at rabbinical tradition it was very rarely used, even for crimes for which it was allowed. It took two or sometimes three eyewitnesses (at the discretion of the judges) to sentence someone to this fate. Only specific people were authorized to begin an execution. It was nothing like the capital system we have in place today, so to compare the two without pointing out and disapproving of these fundamental differences isn't completely honest.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 5:34:11 PM
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modu
Posts: 64
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A criminal killed/murder someone. Verdict=He is very wrong and must be punished severely.
However, for civil or decent society to deliberately kill the criminal as punishment is murder too.
However, I quite understand the emotional and painful drain the criminal has inflicted on the lives of others, but the real test is not what the criminal did, but how we respond.
I lost my dad the very year I got admission into college. He died in a mysterious way in Africa. While others were wailing, I was calm not because I did not feel the loss, which I did more than my elder brothers that were crying, but somehow, I knew the right step to take face to face with the enemies was to tell them that I will not bow to their schemes...never. It was more of the power from the inside. I knew the fight was not on the outside, but on the inside. I tell you this secret; God rightly answered the situation...
Therefore, brothers and sisters that loves our God, if our hearts could truly open to know Christ and walk in His Spirit, we would be amaze to find lots of deceptions the enemy has thrown into the hearts of men, coined in such beautiful garment to make them believe they are following the word of God, but unknowingly they are not. To be very biblical and to walk in the Spirit of Christ are two different ways. Often, our faith today is questioned by the world because we are moving too dogmatic with the Bible and not allowing the Spirit from the Holy Bible to live through us and reveal the healing power of our GOOD GOD that is love and light to the world. We now live and nurse tendencies that do separate Christians from the evil schemes in the world, because most believe knowing as much verses in the Holy Bible and quoting them gives the answers. Knowing as much verse as we can is very encouraging and good, but there is the vital life to live in Christ Jesus, when we demonstrate the gospel of Christ Jesus. Christianity is not just the saying, it is our ever open and total reliance or acquaintance with the Holy Spirit in the name of Christ Jesus to live through us. At this level, our prime object would always be to share love and light. At this level, we would see others in their purest form as God created them, even with their defaults.
vmodu.com
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 6:24:33 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3744
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
John,
There are governments in the world which don't apply the death penalty, right? What of those? Is God's ordained wrath-giver unjust in Canada but just in Saudi Arabia?
They are all unjust to some degree... The government Paul was living under when he penned Romans of was unjust, yet they justly put two thieves to death... And he would have submitted to the death penalty had he done something to warrant it...
John
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 6:30:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3744
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
There are several examples in the Bible where mercy is shown instead of carrying out the death sentence which would be just, and this mercy is praised, not condemned as unjust.
And those cases somehow revoke the death penalty? How do specific cases of mercy support your view that the death penalty is no longer valid?
John
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 6:35:24 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3744
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Look at Deuteronomy 4 and 19, Joshua 20, Numbers 35. One could even look at Genesis 4 as an example of mercy.
Aside from that, look at the restrictions placed on the death penalty. It was a religious ceremony rather than a civil routine. Looking at rabbinical tradition it was very rarely used, even for crimes for which it was allowed. It took two or sometimes three eyewitnesses (at the discretion of the judges) to sentence someone to this fate. Only specific people were authorized to begin an execution. It was nothing like the capital system we have in place today, so to compare the two without pointing out and disapproving of these fundamental differences isn't completely honest.
The differences are not night and day as some might want other to believe... It's not common, the burden of proof on the state lets many walk, not just anyone flips the switch, and it normally takes something pretty nasty to even be consider for the death penalty...
John
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 6:36:53 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3744
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quote:
ORIGINAL: modu
A criminal killed/murder someone. Verdict=He is very wrong and must be punished severely.
However, for civil or decent society to deliberately kill the criminal as punishment is murder too.
Unbiblical....
John
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 7:45:38 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
There are several examples in the Bible where mercy is shown instead of carrying out the death sentence which would be just, and this mercy is praised, not condemned as unjust.
And those cases somehow revoke the death penalty? How do specific cases of mercy support your view that the death penalty is no longer valid?
John
My view is not that the death penalty is completely invalid. My view is that it is not explicitly required by the Bible. That's what the cases of mercy show.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 8:28:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3744
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
There are several examples in the Bible where mercy is shown instead of carrying out the death sentence which would be just, and this mercy is praised, not condemned as unjust.
And those cases somehow revoke the death penalty? How do specific cases of mercy support your view that the death penalty is no longer valid?
John
My view is not that the death penalty is completely invalid. My view is that it is not explicitly required by the Bible. That's what the cases of mercy show.
The cases of mercy are specific, not random events... You are making a rule from exceptions...
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
Numbers 35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
John
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 8:57:55 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 537
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
but without specifics it's just you saying it.
Fair enough. In the U.K.'s case, for example, the wrongful executions of Timothy Evans, George Kelly, and Mahmood Mattan in the 1950s were part of the reason that the death penalty was abolished. In these cases the convictions were overturned posthumously.
Historically and normally, there's not much in the way of a legal process for posthumous legal reviews, so there aren't very many people being legally recognized as innocent after their death.
quote:
Of course it doesn't really matter since God ordained the civil government to be HIS minister of wrath with the foreknowledge that man will never judge perfectly...
The fact that God permits the civil government considerable leeway does not really say that we can use that leeway in ways which might be unjust. Moreover, if we were to take the OT law - even though I would argue doesn't apply as our law today - as a case study in what God regards a proper judicial system, then most present systems fail to meet the criteria that law required for justice in capital punishment cases, like the requirements for multiple witnesses and equivalent penalties for perjury.
Thank you fiat_lux, i appreciate the answer.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/15/2008 10:01:52 PM
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draexo
Posts: 623
Joined: 1/26/2007
From: Saratoga County, New York
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
There are several examples in the Bible where mercy is shown instead of carrying out the death sentence which would be just, and this mercy is praised, not condemned as unjust.
And those cases somehow revoke the death penalty? How do specific cases of mercy support your view that the death penalty is no longer valid?
John
My view is not that the death penalty is completely invalid. My view is that it is not explicitly required by the Bible. That's what the cases of mercy show.
The cases of mercy are specific, not random events... You are making a rule from exceptions...
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
Numbers 35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
John
John
That's very OT of you. Please try to remember that we are under a NEW COVENANT.
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/16/2008 3:35:16 AM
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doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
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quote:
John
That's very OT of you. Please try to remember that we are under a NEW COVENANT.
Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.
Odd isn't this the OT that supports the death penalty?
1 Tim 1: 8-11 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
How can Paul affirm the virtues of the law, isn't this the New Testament?
Acts 25:11 If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die. But if the charges brought against me by these Jews are not true, no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar!"
Suprisingly Paul affirms that there are crimes that deserve death. Did Paul not get the memo that this is the NT and there are no more crimes that deserve the lost of life?
More OT but lasting principles...
Ezek 13:19 And will you profane Me...killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live...?
Before God's covenant with Abraham...Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed...
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/16/2008 9:52:46 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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Doublecross,
for the bit on the law, read Galations 3-5 (this isn't the place to argue that, though)
As far as the passage from Acts, that is far from "Anything less than death is unjust"
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/16/2008 3:09:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3744
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: draexo
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
There are several examples in the Bible where mercy is shown instead of carrying out the death sentence which would be just, and this mercy is praised, not condemned as unjust.
And those cases somehow revoke the death penalty? How do specific cases of mercy support your view that the death penalty is no longer valid?
John
My view is not that the death penalty is completely invalid. My view is that it is not explicitly required by the Bible. That's what the cases of mercy show.
The cases of mercy are specific, not random events... You are making a rule from exceptions...
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
Numbers 35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
John
John
That's very OT of you. Please try to remember that we are under a NEW COVENANT.
What does that mean? Can one lie, murder and steal under the NEW COVENANT with no fear of consequences? Do you have something other than a very empty statement?
John
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/16/2008 3:52:46 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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Lying, stealing, and murdering are forbidden in many codes, not just the OT law. When guided by the Spirit, one doesn't do these things either.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/16/2008 8:16:32 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3744
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Lying, stealing, and murdering are forbidden in many codes, not just the OT law. When guided by the Spirit, one doesn't do these things either.
What one may or may not do isn't in quesiton... It's quite clear that lying, stealing, and murdering are no less wrong today than it ever was...
Statements like the following: That's very OT of you. Please try to remember that we are under a NEW COVENANT.
Don't address the issue, and serve only to muddy the water...
John
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/16/2008 8:39:40 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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Perhaps for you the new covenant doesn't address the issue, but for some it is at the very heart of the issue. You may not agree with that, but please try to understand it.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/16/2008 8:59:37 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3744
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Perhaps for you the new covenant doesn't address the issue, but for some it is at the very heart of the issue. You may not agree with that, but please try to understand it.
What doesn't address the issue is vauge statements with not subtance behind them... Talking points might work for politics but it doesn't in this regard...
What is there to understand when little or northing is presented? I am not going to accept one's feelings over the word of God...
John
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/17/2008 2:45:13 AM
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doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Doublecross,
for the bit on the law, read Galations 3-5 (this isn't the place to argue that, though)
As far as the passage from Acts, that is far from "Anything less than death is unjust"
McFatty,
My quote was "1 Tim 1: 8-11 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me."
Telling us that it is not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels....murderers. Paul was acknowledging that the law, even civil law was given to us for justice. Includes murderers.
WRT my Act quote, Paul was acknowledging the existence of death penalty in their time. His arguement was not against the death penalty. In fact he welcomes it if he deserved it. Present in his time, not disputed if he was deserving.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/17/2008 2:52:13 AM
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doublecross
Posts: 121
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Perhaps for you the new covenant doesn't address the issue, but for some it is at the very heart of the issue. You may not agree with that, but please try to understand it.
The NT arguement has an issue with the death penalty the people who opposed DP would say that since we are now under a new covenant, forgiveness must be employed even in our governance.
I rolled out "Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD." earlier. Showing that loving and forgiving was also at the very heart of the Old Covenant. However, with regards to criminal treatments, justice is not an opposition to love and forgiveness.
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/17/2008 12:20:33 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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My problem with the death penalty has nothing to do with me not accepting it if it were given to me and I deserved it. I will fully accept the maximum sentence for myself. I don't believe that the maximum penalty must be administered every time. The Bible doesn't either.
If you were to look at the specific examples of crimes leading to the death penalty in the Bible, I wonder how many you will find that the death penalty was carried out and how many offenders were shown mercy, just on a tally. Anyone know?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/17/2008 2:08:47 PM
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draexo
Posts: 623
Joined: 1/26/2007
From: Saratoga County, New York
Status: offline
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Deuteronomy 21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
I wonder how many times this command in Deuteronomy was carried out?
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Is death penalty a Christian value? - 7/17/2008 4:05:01 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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I guarantee you won't hear people campaigning for that as heavily as they campaign for death penalty for murderers.
It makes you think whether justice is really their goal, if the maximum sentence is the only just thing. It makes you wonder if those campaigning for death penalty for murderers but not in this situation are really thinking about vengeance.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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