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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 7:25:20 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
I have not been taught anything on the "office" of Apostle...where is that in scripture?
Various groups are claiming that the church needs apostles and prophets today. Does the Bible support such a claim?
In addressing the question of apostles and prophets today, we must carefully define our terms.
Certainly the church today needs church planters, missionaries, or leaders who act as pastors over other pastors. Fortunately, when some people say that the church needs "apostles" today, that's all that they mean.
And while the usage of the term "apostle" is not biblical, certainly the church does need such persons.
Likewise, when some people say that the church needs "prophets" today, they mean that the church needs Spirit-filled leaders who can inspire the church with a vision for its mission, or who can challenge the church to deeper commitment to Christ.
And again, while this many not be the most biblical use of the term "prophet," there can be no doubt that the church does need such persons.
On the other hand, if by "apostles" and "prophets" one means Christian leaders of the same kind as the twelve apostles or the apostle Paul, they are clearly mistaken.
There are no church leaders today whose authority cannot be questioned, or through whom new doctrinal revelations are given to the church, or whose teachings must be accepted by all Christians.
The New Testament teaches that the apostles of Christ were persons to whom Christ appeared after His resurrection and whom He commissioned to be His personal spokesmen (Acts 1:21-26; 5:32; 1 Corinthians. 9:1; 15:8).
Ephesians 2:20 and 3:5 teach that the apostles and prophets had foundational offices through which Christ established the church as the newly constituted people of God, a church in which both Jews and Gentiles make up the singular body of Christ.
Clearly many men today who claim to be apostles have taken upon themselves authority over other people which has not been given to them by God.
Additionally, they are making prophetic utterances which they falsely claim to be divinely inspired.
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 10:24:49 PM
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MrFribbles
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earthless,
I quite agree! For the most part, people who use these titles, though technically incorrect, have the right heart behind them. However, there are unfortunately those who take the titles as Scripture intends them, yet still presume to hold onto them personally.
Personally, I've never met anyone who has abused the titles in this way. Have you (or anyone else on here, for that matter!)?
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/4/2008 12:16:45 AM
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manichunter
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Other Apostles existed besides the twelve.
Ac 14:14 -
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out
Other Prophets existed
Ac 15:32 -
Now Judas and Silas, themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words.
I believe that they are out there somewhere. I believe that they are not being recognized as such. Some people would scare them off like the OT Israelites did. They could really unite the body of Christ.
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/4/2008 2:33:43 AM
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prophet
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Hi ye all! Someone lookin fer me? 
Shalom
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/4/2008 7:42:56 AM
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wintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
Other Apostles existed besides the twelve.
Ac 14:14 -
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out
Other Prophets existed
Ac 15:32 -
Now Judas and Silas, themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words.
I believe that they are out there somewhere. I believe that they are not being recognized as such. Some people would scare them off like the OT Israelites did. They could really unite the body of Christ.
This is not to be unkind, unfriendly or disagreeable, but the hypothesis is getting into fantasy. Even if I walked out the door this morning and found an apostle and a prophet, why would they "unite the body of Christ"? Every person is an individual expression of faith in Christ. The only thing to "unite the church" is faith in Christ. Homogenization is not needed. There's no Scripture that says, "ye shall get fragmented but in the last days steps forth apostles and prophets to homogenize ye".
I don't put you in this category manichunter, but there are those putting themselves forth as apostles and prophets --see the "apostolic commissioning" of Bentley -- and there are plenty of Christians that see reasons not to follow them.
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/4/2008 7:53:37 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Personally, I've never met anyone who has abused the titles in this way. Have you (or anyone else on here, for that matter!)?
Yes, more than I can sit here and count. And continue to do so today... here is a little snippet for you to read regarding my response: HERE
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/4/2008 11:44:43 AM
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Dougeb
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apostle means sent one so the office is still here as is the other 4
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/4/2008 4:25:13 PM
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earthless
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Douge,
Did you get a chance to read my comments regarding the term 'Apostle' and the definition used in Scripture? Is that how you mean it to be used for today?
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/8/2008 1:17:35 PM
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Soxfan
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Hebrews 1:1-2
1 "In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/8/2008 2:01:38 PM
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DaveW
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Earthless, while we agree on a great many things, your definition of apostle (small "a") and mine do not agree at all. It is clear that scripture calls Barnabus and Silas "apostles" and others as well. There is no scritptural evidence to say they ever physically saw the ressurected Messiah. With Barnabas coming from Antioch, it is unlikely.
Clearly that was a concern for the person who took Judas' place in the 12, but was it God's concern or just that of the other 11? Again we have no scriptural indication. Paul appeals to his seeing HIM in Corinthians, but was that a physical sighting or a vision? The others with Saul did not see HIM. That tends toward a vision which anyone could have had at any time.quote:
Certainly the church today needs church planters, missionaries, or leaders who act as pastors over other pastors. Fortunately, when some people say that the church needs "apostles" today, that's all that they mean.
And while the usage of the term "apostle" is not biblical, certainly the church does need such persons. I would say this is definatly a biblical definition. The category that Barnabas, Silas, James the Just and others fall into.
THere is a sense in some passages of the word meaning one of the 12, and in other places anyone who is sent. Both are legit.
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/8/2008 2:32:41 PM
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earthless
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Dave,
So where do you disagree with me when I said 'a'postles are people who act as pastors over other pastors, church planters, etc..?
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/9/2008 7:36:56 AM
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DaveW
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My disagreement is your statement that that useage of apostle was "not biblical."
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/9/2008 8:06:03 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
My disagreement is your statement that that useage of apostle was "not biblical."
Not if they mean someone living today that holds the Office of Apostle - like those from the New Testament when the foundation was still being laid.
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/19/2008 1:27:55 PM
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hellochurch
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hey soxfan:
ephesians 4: 11-13 states the purpose and function of the 5 gifts to the church, "and He gave some apostles, propehts, evangelists, pastors and teachers, for perfecting the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, until we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the son of God, unto a perfect man,
UNTO THE MEASURE OF THE FULNESS OF THE STATURE OF CHRIST.
Until we all see full statures of Jesus out there when we look around at our brothers and sisters, until we have everyone in the unity of faith, (now there is a tall order) and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto perfection,
UnTIL THESE MENTIONED THINGS ARE COMPLETED WE WILL HAVE THE FIVE FOLD MINISTRY GROUP ON THE EARTH DOING WHAT THEY DO, IN ALL OF THE GIFTS AND MINISTRIES ACCORDINGLY,
This means that prophets will prophesy, apostles will apostle, (not add to the bible canon) teachers will teach, pastors will pastor and evangelists will evangelize, until we see all in agrement in the faith, and all coming to maturity to the measure of the fulness of the stature of Christ.
This has not occured yet, so that is why the five fold, all of them, are on the earth, according to eph 4.
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/19/2008 2:07:40 PM
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hellochurch
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jimbo; i think acts 1 means that they wanted someone to replace judas who had seen and heard jesus at that time, they were not setting up a qualification for apostles forever, just that since they all had walked physcially on the earth with jesus, and one of them failed, they wanted a replacement for their original 12 who fit in,
this in no way decides that all apostles for all time had to have been with jesus in his [physical ministry on the earth,
paul silas was not with jesus then nor barnabus, and they are counted apostles, disqualified by what you stated.
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/19/2008 2:21:35 PM
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hellochurch
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quote manichunter
[Something might be out of order with the five-fold ministry not being in operation. Can the Body of Christ be properly equipped and edified for work of ministry and unity without these offices and body functions? Maybe I am wrong.
[
-------------quote:
I don't think you are wrong, it is written in the bible ephesians 4, 11-13 for a purpose to explain their purpose, i believe apostles exist but are low profile not in the media, not usually,
i believe i have one in my area where i live, i mean by i have one, that he is located in my area, it is possible that every locale has one.
He works with his hands, has a high high degree of integrity, never says he is an apostle, but teaches people indivudally.
He usually has several people at one time on the go in his 'school'.
They don't go to class or whatever, he meets with them and talks.
I started with him, it happened not by either of our choice, i believe it was the Lord, my first meeting he spoke for about 2 hours in a restaurant one day on faith. He was feeding me supernatural food, feeding me from the Word of God, a real delight.
something occurred to interrupt the connection and it was not since re established,
I really believe God established it, and it oculd be perhpas that he was male and me female as to why it was stopped. He mostly talks to men, but i do know of one woman who was being taught, until she moved away out of our area.
the people he has talked to are not well known, exactly that they have talked to him, but they have since their connection grown in bounds and leaps in their spiritual life i noticed through talks with them.
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/19/2008 2:25:28 PM
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hellochurch
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dear soxfan, hebrews 1, 2
that you quoted, .....'but now has He spoken to us through His son,' is countered with revelations where it is stated that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. This testimony have his witnesses the prophets.
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/19/2008 2:47:56 PM
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peacebringer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
dear soxfan, hebrews 1, 2
that you quoted, .....'but now has He spoken to us through His son,' is countered with revelations where it is stated that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. This testimony have his witnesses the prophets.
I think both are easily reconciled. I don't think the "office" of anything is an operantion. I think there are giftings and gifts. The revelations passage states spirit of prophecy, not spirit of A PROPHET. There is also the scripture in 1 or 2 thessalonians ( can't recall the exact address at moment) that states despise not prophecy, not despise not prophets.
I see no biblical support for the concept of offices and would like to see any such support if so claimed. The passage in Ephesians never makes any indication of "offices"
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/20/2008 7:15:45 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
hey soxfan:
ephesians 4: 11-13 states the purpose and function of the 5 gifts to the church, "and He gave some apostles, propehts, evangelists, pastors and teachers, for perfecting the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, until we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the son of God, unto a perfect man,
UNTO THE MEASURE OF THE FULNESS OF THE STATURE OF CHRIST.
Until we all see full statures of Jesus out there when we look around at our brothers and sisters, until we have everyone in the unity of faith, (now there is a tall order) and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto perfection,
UnTIL THESE MENTIONED THINGS ARE COMPLETED WE WILL HAVE THE FIVE FOLD MINISTRY GROUP ON THE EARTH DOING WHAT THEY DO, IN ALL OF THE GIFTS AND MINISTRIES ACCORDINGLY,
This means that prophets will prophesy, apostles will apostle, (not add to the bible canon) teachers will teach, pastors will pastor and evangelists will evangelize, until we see all in agrement in the faith, and all coming to maturity to the measure of the fulness of the stature of Christ.
This has not occured yet, so that is why the five fold, all of them, are on the earth, according to eph 4.
The foundation has been built (Eph 2:20), the canon of Scripture is CLOSED. Sounds like it has occurred to me.
The main qualifications to be a foundational Apostle is to have seen the RISEN Christ (1Cor 9:1, 1 Cor 15:5-8 - "8 and last of all he appeared to me also") and to have been PERSONALLY commissioned by him.
Please provide me the name of at least one person living today that meets those qualifications
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/21/2008 1:58:40 AM
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peacebringer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
hey soxfan:
ephesians 4: 11-13 states the purpose and function of the 5 gifts to the church, "and He gave some apostles, propehts, evangelists, pastors and teachers, for perfecting the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, until we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the son of God, unto a perfect man,
UNTO THE MEASURE OF THE FULNESS OF THE STATURE OF CHRIST.
Until we all see full statures of Jesus out there when we look around at our brothers and sisters, until we have everyone in the unity of faith, (now there is a tall order) and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto perfection,
UnTIL THESE MENTIONED THINGS ARE COMPLETED WE WILL HAVE THE FIVE FOLD MINISTRY GROUP ON THE EARTH DOING WHAT THEY DO, IN ALL OF THE GIFTS AND MINISTRIES ACCORDINGLY,
This means that prophets will prophesy, apostles will apostle, (not add to the bible canon) teachers will teach, pastors will pastor and evangelists will evangelize, until we see all in agrement in the faith, and all coming to maturity to the measure of the fulness of the stature of Christ.
This has not occured yet, so that is why the five fold, all of them, are on the earth, according to eph 4.
The foundation has been built (Eph 2:20), the canon of Scripture is CLOSED. Sounds like it has occurred to me.
The main qualifications to be a foundational Apostle is to have seen the RISEN Christ (1Cor 9:1, 1 Cor 15:5-8 - "8 and last of all he appeared to me also") and to have been PERSONALLY commissioned by him.
Please provide me the name of at least one person living today that meets those qualifications
Now while I agree that the foundational apostles are long past, I think it is a stretch to say that there is nobody operating in apostolic gifting today. The gifting however, is not an "Office" which is what some are trying to build, going back to the authority of the foundational apostles and the authority of the office of prophet as exhibited in the OT. I think that neither is appropriate. The foundational apostles established the foundation. Folks today with an apostolic gifting are operating in the leadership gifts. Some may be missionaries, some may be church planters, some may be church authorities, some may be elders. Some may be outside the church. One person I believe had an aposotolic gifting was Harriett Meiers, who led a Bible study that served a foundation for some people greatly used by God.
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/21/2008 8:20:25 AM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peacebringer
Now while I agree that the foundational apostles are long past, I think it is a stretch to say that there is nobody operating in apostolic gifting today. The gifting however, is not an "Office" which is what some are trying to build, going back to the authority of the foundational apostles and the authority of the office of prophet as exhibited in the OT. I think that neither is appropriate. The foundational apostles established the foundation. Folks today with an apostolic gifting are operating in the leadership gifts. Some may be missionaries, some may be church planters, some may be church authorities, some may be elders. Some may be outside the church. One person I believe had an aposotolic gifting was Harriett Meiers, who led a Bible study that served a foundation for some people greatly used by God.
peacebringer...I agree with you 100% on everything you say here. I too believe that the apostolic gift (missionary, church planter, etc) still exists.
However, many in the Five-Fold/Latter Rain camps believe that the "Office" still exists today. There are many in this heretical movement that believe that Christ cannot return until these foundational "offices" are restored. They also believe that they will do things that would make the original, foundational Apostles jealous.
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/21/2008 12:56:57 PM
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peacebringer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: peacebringer
Now while I agree that the foundational apostles are long past, I think it is a stretch to say that there is nobody operating in apostolic gifting today. The gifting however, is not an "Office" which is what some are trying to build, going back to the authority of the foundational apostles and the authority of the office of prophet as exhibited in the OT. I think that neither is appropriate. The foundational apostles established the foundation. Folks today with an apostolic gifting are operating in the leadership gifts. Some may be missionaries, some may be church planters, some may be church authorities, some may be elders. Some may be outside the church. One person I believe had an aposotolic gifting was Harriett Meiers, who led a Bible study that served a foundation for some people greatly used by God.
peacebringer...I agree with you 100% on everything you say here. I too believe that the apostolic gift (missionary, church planter, etc) still exists.
However, many in the Five-Fold/Latter Rain camps believe that the "Office" still exists today. There are many in this heretical movement that believe that Christ cannot return until these foundational "offices" are restored. They also believe that they will do things that would make the original, foundational Apostles jealous.
Yes, I am aware of the NAR movement, or have become aware of it. It is a deeper level of deception then the out front obvious stuff at Lakeland. However, not all affiliated with ICA are necessarily fully in agreement with all. Some view things symbolically, others literally. It is a far more complicated mess. The essence though of error is in part related to viewing things as "Offices" which is definitely a twisting of that passage for own personal agendas. I may blog on this at some point, it is in the mental list of things to write about, just don't know when I will get to it...
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/21/2008 2:21:44 PM
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manichunter
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it is hard for believers to admit that sin is the root cause for all the division within Christianity.
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/21/2008 8:22:38 PM
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TrustingGod
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Part of the problem with the Church being deceived is that people are following people. Too many "followers" have no idea what their "leaders" are saying. They don't have any idea whether it is Biblical because they don't do their own research into the Word. I have friend who follows people because they are sincere, nice, they sound right, he knows them...yet he has no idea what the Scriptures say because he's depending on other people to interpret for him instead of reading and studying himself.
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RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 8/28/2008 5:34:11 PM
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teclils
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
I know my JESUS (well HE is everybody's JESUS too)
How is He everyone's Jesus? Many use the name/term 'jesus' and yet are talking about beings and definitions that are foreign from the Jesus revealed in Scripture.
JESUS died for All the world...even those that reject HIM....
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