RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (Full Version)

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Scrubbybubbles -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/7/2008 7:09:59 PM)

our childrens ministry at my church we do through background checks

you dont serve until its back.. and men dont change babies diapers if they work in the nursery... and we have 2 workers in the rooms at all times ... especially when we take them to the restroom.. we pretty much have the "2person" rule any time we deal with kids



GroupW -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/7/2008 7:14:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scrubbybubbles
and men dont change babies diapers if they work in the nursery...


So why is that? This would annoy the snot out of me if it's church policy. If it's just the way people do things, that's a bit different. If it's policy, then there's the embedded assumption that men are not safe, while women are.

I would find that offensive.

What's the rationale in your church for doing it this way?

I expressed the feeling fairly strongly - no offense intended, BTW.
BT



earthless -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/7/2008 7:18:28 PM)

Because us men are pigs? [&:]



GroupW -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/7/2008 7:20:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

Because us men are pigs? [&:]

LOL - OK, besides that.



everythingat -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/7/2008 7:28:12 PM)

To answer the OP, absolutely and always. But that's still not going to stop the ones who haven't been caught yet. I think would be nice and ideal if it were possible for all of them to undergo a psychiatric evaluation (I do realize that's next to impossible, which is why I said it would be ideal). There have been so many ministers around my area who have been arrested for either molesting kids or statutory rape. I remember sometime in the past six years, there was a child minister arrested around here who had molested 23 of the church's kids. Nothing is going to be able to stop those like that child minister, but churches that don't require background checks could at least make an attempt to not live in the 1970's.



Scrubbybubbles -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/7/2008 8:22:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scrubbybubbles
and men dont change babies diapers if they work in the nursery...


So why is that? This would annoy the snot out of me if it's church policy. If it's just the way people do things, that's a bit different. If it's policy, then there's the embedded assumption that men are not safe, while women are.

I would find that offensive.

What's the rationale in your church for doing it this way?

I expressed the feeling fairly strongly - no offense intended, BTW.
BT


no offfense taken... its just for the protection of the men in the nursery... basically .. and i dont know a whole lot of men that want to change diapers of kids that arnt their own .. not that everyone out there is a pedofile.. but it just keeps someone from comming back and saying ... HEY there is something wrong here and automaticly jumping to that wrong conclusion ..



phosadaud -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/7/2008 8:52:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: everythingat

To answer the OP, absolutely and always. But that's still not going to stop the ones who haven't been caught yet.


Absolutely correct! That's why we can't just rely on background investigations. Procedures need to be in place to add protection. For instance - always having at least 2 childcare providers, unrelated, in the nursery. NEVER being alone with a child. Etc, etc.

We had an instance a number of years back with a board member that we all loved and trusted. He passed the background checks. He is now serving time for molesting his granddaughter. It was unrelated to the church, but it was a real wakeup call to why we must have policies and procedures for our nursery.

I still don't have an issue with men in the nursery. I kind of have an issue with portraying all men as threats and women as safe. I think that's a dangerous thing to teach our children (and our parents) - and only serves to help female predators.



Qtman -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/7/2008 9:14:43 PM)

Scrubbybubbles I do not like the task of changing someone elses baby's dirty diaper. Heck I didn't like changing my own kids or later my grandkids. But I am a responsible adult. I have the ability to do the task and the responsibility to get it done if noone else is around. I love kids and have worked with the youth in two churches. I just can not and will not let a helpless baby sit in a dirty diaper for 1 to 2 hours just to appease picky parents. If I happen to be working in the nursery, which I haven't for four years, parents who have a problem with me changing their baby's diaper should not bring them to the nursery. Because I promise you as soon as I realize one of them has soiled their diaper I will hold my breath and change it. It is not only unsanitary but it is unhealthy for a baby to sit there dirty like that.



Scrubbybubbles -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/7/2008 9:45:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman

Scrubbybubbles I do not like the task of changing someone elses baby's dirty diaper. Heck I didn't like changing my own kids or later my grandkids. But I am a responsible adult. I have the ability to do the task and the responsibility to get it done if noone else is around. I love kids and have worked with the youth in two churches. I just can not and will not let a helpless baby sit in a dirty diaper for 1 to 2 hours just to appease picky parents. If I happen to be working in the nursery, which I haven't for four years, parents who have a problem with me changing their baby's diaper should not bring them to the nursery. Because I promise you as soon as I realize one of them has soiled their diaper I will hold my breath and change it. It is not only unsanitary but it is unhealthy for a baby to sit there dirty like that.

just saying what our churchs policy is ... its not ment to say that i think men are unfit... im sure they arnt... its sad that in todays society something like this has to happen...



zamdad -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 1:19:44 AM)

I wanted to add to the comments made by Earthless. I too am a cop. Being a cop is fairly new to me. In many ways, law enforcement has restored my faith in humanity as I get to meet more decent people. For the past 16 years I have worked in corrections; managing the worst of the worst. Five years of that time was spent supervising a caseload of sex offenders. Monitoring them in the community and co-facilitating outpatient sex offender treatment.

I think background checks are a good thing, but they only catch those who've already been caught. Far too many sexual offenders, like thieves, get away with it many times before they finally get caught. Having spent considerable time getting to know the men and women convicted of sex crimes, I have learned that most are masters at interpersonal relationships. They know how to gain the confidence of their victims and the loved ones of the victims. The perpetrator is all too often the person that most are least likely to suspect.

I too raise an eyebrow when I hear a man who wants to supervise young children when his own are not involved. At the same time, my trained "gut" asks questions and makes critical observations of all men in childrens ministries.

I've seen it too many times now. Too many times in which an accusation is made and countless people run to the defense of the accused person. We Christians are all too frequently the worst enablers because we don't want to believe something bad about someone, especially someone we think we know well.

If we are going to protect our kids from predators, we have to get to know our kids and know them well. We have to build the trust in them so that if someone wants them to keep a secret from us, they wouldn't think twice about keeping the secret as they'd come rushing to mom/dad. We also have to be attuned to our suroundings. We have to be the ultimate background check.

Another thought. Why do we put so much stock in background checks, yet we all too often don't check out the friends of our kids?



SonInMe1 -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 5:43:34 AM)

quote:

For if you do not, that history will come back and bite you and bring public shame to the Church, and I know that is not what you want


I have been here for 8 years. I have seen post after post of the literal hatred christians have toward anyone even suspected of any form of child abuse.

To tell anyone in church or people I know, in the real world, what happened to me would have disastorous effects and I am not that stupid.

Being innocent has absolutley no bearing on this whatsoever. I am without a doubt absolutely innocent, however, that stain will always be there.

To take any chance that someone would find out about this, in the real world, would be the height of stupidity. I can proclaim inn ocence from the roof tops and it would be for naught.

The police showed up first. They wanted to search my home. I had never been in that situation and I said maybe I should get my lawyer. They said if I did that, then I would be charged and taken to the station.

I knew if I was charged, my life would be over. So I let them search.

The next visits were from social workers. Eventually they just showed up and had coffee. No more inspections. No more child interviews. ( Just imagine what my kids thought when they were asked these questions )

No, there is no way I would trust that this information is non-existant. Someone probably could dig it up and I won't take that chance.

What I do, or have done for the church never involves children...and no man loves babies more than me. Diapers...puke...bring it on... [:D].

Its just...life.

By the way I support having background checks on people.

I tend to agree that a man wanting to work in the nursery, esspecially a single older man, is a suspect. That does not mean he is guilty. It just means he should be suspected.



Qtman -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 9:01:57 AM)

SonInMe1,

With the prevalent attitude in this thread I have to regrettably agree with you. It would not be smart for you to bring this up.

This will be my last post in this thread so I wanted to address a couple of people.

First of all I totally support background checks for people working with children. This extends to the entire staff of a church including the pastor. However, as has been pointed out a simple background check will provide little useful information. It has to be an indepth background check and then it will reveal red flags if any exist.

I can understand this attitude I see hear coming from the general public but it upsets me to no end seeing it in law enforcement personnel. To those I ask does stereotyping mean anything to you. Does the constitution you swore to protect and defend mean anything to you. I believe it still says innocent until proven guilty. Speaking as a career law enforcement officer with 29 years experience if this is truly your attitude maybe you would be better suited for other employment. I see no difference in what is being said here that saying all blacks are lazy, all Hispanics are thieves, all poles are stupid. If you saw a young black man or boy driving a Mercedes would you assume he had stolen it or was a drug pusher. Would you automatically suspect it. BTW there is a black kid in my town that drives a Mercedes. He has been stopped by some of the local police for "questioning" simply because of that. His dad is a prominent and wealthy lawyer.

O.K. I got it off my chest. Y'all carry on with your prejudicial conversation.



earthless -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 9:15:51 AM)

QTman,

29 years of law enforcement experience in a ghetto inner-city like Chicago or NYC? Or in a small town/farm country?

I am NOT downplaying or downgrading your time as my brother in the force - but I do know that our environment and culture have a lot to do with our outlook and experiences.



StephK -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 9:24:08 AM)

The precautions that are put in place also protect the workers. I know several people are upset that there has to be this drastic measure but many of the more predatory pedophiles are master manipulators and they know which gullible people to pick in order to find their next victim. Churches are often chosen for their easy marks.



GroupW -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 9:37:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scrubbybubbles


no offfense taken... its just for the protection of the men in the nursery... basically .. and i dont know a whole lot of men that want to change diapers of kids that arnt their own .. not that everyone out there is a pedofile.. but it just keeps someone from comming back and saying ... HEY there is something wrong here and automaticly jumping to that wrong conclusion ..


I understand the issue of appearances. I tend to think the "two worker" rule though prevents worry. As long as a child is never alone with ANY adult, gender shouldn't matter.

BT



cow451 -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 11:13:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Everyone in the ministry of a Church; from Senior Pastor to parking lot attendant and everyone in between should be vetted and that vetting includes a full background check.

To do otherwise is to be in violation of this Scripture;

(1Th 5:21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

and

(Eph 4:27) Neither give place to the devil.

Anyone that refuses a background check should be shunned, even it there is nothing in their background that would be considerd offensive.



Thanks
RC


The Apocalypse inches closer: RC and I agree completely.[:o]



GroupW -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 11:32:53 AM)

I see the Four Horsemen approaching even as we speak.



zamdad -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 1:14:03 PM)

QTMan, I have nothing but respect for you. Over the years I've been on this forum, you're one of those posters I find myself in agreement with. It seems that some of the comments made here may have touched a button with you. I am unable to draw the correlation you've drawn linking suspicion of men in nurseries with racial profiling. There is no "look" that a predatory offender conveys to indicate their intentions. As I said in my previous post in this thread, most perps are masters of interpersonal communication. Most are those who gain the trust of everyone.

Let me share a story that pertains to the topic. As I said, I spent five years supervising sex offenders as a probation officer. My family and I were on vacation in another state and we stopped at a mall to get some things needed for the trip. My wife and son went to a particular store while I took my daughters to the play area in the middle of the mall. As we entered thep lay area, there was one woman sitting on the bench with two little kids playing. I summized that she was the mother of the children playing. As I sat on the bench, I watched other couples enter the mall and come to the play area. As I watched I was able to determine which kids belonged with which adult. IN a matter of 20 minutes there were approximately a dozen kids and five adults in this paly are.

OUtside the play area there was a young couple sitting at a table gazing into each others eyes. There was an older man sitting on a bench who appeared to be waiting for his wife to complete her shopping. Something about the older man captured my attention. As the play area filled with kids, his interest seemed to be drawn to the play area. He repositioned himself on his bench where it was obvious that he was now actively watching the kids. My "professional" mind went into high gear. I found myself thinking that I wanted to go over and ask him, "So which ones excite you, the boys or the girls?" I then reminded myself that I was not working, I was on vacation with my family. I should be ashamed of myself for thinking such things. Perhaps my profession was skewing my perception of people.

As I was beating myself up mentally, I noticed that the man moved from his bench to a chair at the edge of the play area. He was leaning into the play area and waving his arms to try and get kids to come to him. He then began whistling and saying "come here" to kids. Thankfully, none of the kids was paying attention to him. I quit beating myself up and refocused on him. I think he saw that my attention was focused on him. He looked at me and got this uncomfortable look on his face, but continued motioning to the kids. I began to stand. He stood up, adjusted his pants, turned and walked away from me.

I don't know whether I intervened in a crime or not. Would I have reacted the same way if it had not been for training and experience? Was I profiling? My professional way of thinking has, all too often, interfered with my home/personal life. my wife all too often tells me that I'm not working, turn it off. As you must be well aware, it's all too difficult if not impossible to turn it off.



GroupW -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 1:47:28 PM)

Two things-
One, I applaud your "radar". I'm sure it's something you've developed over time, and has no doubt been the salvation of unknown children.

Two, there is a very apparent link in my mind regarding racial profiling and the suspicion of men in child abuse/their exclusion in children's ministry.

The racial profiling is the stopping or otherwise intervening in the normal lives of people based on a presumed correlation between their physical appearance and the specific intention of a person to do harm. In the racial case, the link is skin color and violent/non violent crime. It comes into play when a black person ventures into a "white" neighborhood.

In this case, the profiling issue is likewise a physical trait - male gender - which is observable. The issue is the premature intervention in a situation where no reason exists to suspect criminal intent.

Men are no doubt likely to commit such a crime, but when reasonable alternative precautions (e.g. not allowing less than two individuals present at any one time) can be taken that don't involve a presumption of guilt, then this would be my preference.

I think there is a basic rule to follow regarding the balance between ensuring the safety of our children and the degree of freedom of men to minister where they are gifted.

The basic rule would be the imposition of measured restrictions - as little as possible, and only as much as necessary. When less restrictive measures can be put in place that still safeguard our children, we should favor the less restrictive over the more restrictive.

In the words of Forrest Gump, "And that's all I have to say about that."
(For now....)

BT



Qtman -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 1:47:40 PM)

One more post in this thread if y'all will forgive me.

First of all thank you very much for the kind words.

zamdad I see nothing in your story that indicates profiling just good instinct. This is not the situation I was talking about. Of course we all have to look at these things on a case by case basis. I have no problem with that. It is the blanket approach I saw on her that pushed a button with me. If the hair stands up on the back of your neck so to speak when you see something like you described you would be foolish to just ignore it. At the same time you would not apply the same thing to every man at the scene. Something about this particular man caught your attention. You reacted as you should have.

BTW as long as I have been around I find it difficult to leave it at the office when I go home.

Blessings.



GroupW -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 1:55:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman
BTW as long as I have been around I find it difficult to leave it at the office when I go home.

Blessings.


Zam, Earthless, QT:
My wife used to work with adjudicated young men - it colored her world tremendously and was impossible to leave at the office. It's been both good and bad - she gained tremendous wisdom over those 10 years, but lost a tremendous amount of peace of mind. It's taken a long time to regain a more balanced view of the world.

It's a tough job y'all do and it takes a heavy personal toll. My thanks and appreciation to you all.

BT



Qtman -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 2:02:13 PM)

And thank you too BT.

Now before one of the mods jump in here and nudge us back on topic to the OP.

Yes background check should be made and should be as thoroughly as is humanly possible. It is an undenieable fact there are perverts out there.



GroupW -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 2:11:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman

And thank you too BT.

Now before one of the mods jump in here and nudge us back on topic to the OP.

Yes background check should be made and should be as thoroughly as is humanly possible. It is an undenieable fact there are perverts out there.


I think we have enough near-universal agreement there to consider the issue put to rest.

To summarize:
-It protects your children, your staff, your volunteers, your church, and Christ's reputation in your community.
-It costs little or nothing.
-It's not a fail-safe solution, but it is part of a well-reasoned set of child safety precautions.
-Not doing so is bordering on the negligent and disobedient.

'Nuff said?



earthless -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 2:43:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

Something about the older man captured my attention. As the play area filled with kids, his interest seemed to be drawn to the play area. He repositioned himself on his bench where it was obvious that he was now actively watching the kids. My "professional" mind went into high gear. I found myself thinking that I wanted to go over and ask him, "So which ones excite you, the boys or the girls?" I then reminded myself that I was not working, I was on vacation with my family. I should be ashamed of myself for thinking such things. Perhaps my profession was skewing my perception of people.

As I was beating myself up mentally, I noticed that the man moved from his bench to a chair at the edge of the play area. He was leaning into the play area and waving his arms to try and get kids to come to him. He then began whistling and saying "come here" to kids. Thankfully, none of the kids was paying attention to him. I quit beating myself up and refocused on him. I think he saw that my attention was focused on him. He looked at me and got this uncomfortable look on his face, but continued motioning to the kids. I began to stand. He stood up, adjusted his pants, turned and walked away from me.

I don't know whether I intervened in a crime or not. Would I have reacted the same way if it had not been for training and experience? Was I profiling? My professional way of thinking has, all too often, interfered with my home/personal life. my wife all too often tells me that I'm not working, turn it off. As you must be well aware, it's all too difficult if not impossible to turn it off.


Thank you for sharing your experience - what was at play in your situation was not just your professional background but discernment.

And what bothers me about a small running theme in this thread is a mentality of "oh, you're wrong for even thinking that way!!" It all has to do with wisdom, understanding, and tact. Some Christians because of a skewed (wrong) biblical view of "judging" and self-defense are so scared to even think about the reality of evil and perversion in our world that they may, unwittingly, place innocent people in harms way.

Your line about, "which ones excite you?" is classic - I have worked with our sexual crimes division - seen the HORRIFIC videos and pictures - and surely do know the sheer evil that many people walking amongst us are capable of doing and are seeking to do.

We need to know that often times it is our gut, and if we're believers, discernment from the Lord on things that are indeed wrong.



earthless -> RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks (7/8/2008 2:45:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman
BTW as long as I have been around I find it difficult to leave it at the office when I go home.

Blessings.


Zam, Earthless, QT:
My wife used to work with adjudicated young men - it colored her world tremendously and was impossible to leave at the office. It's been both good and bad - she gained tremendous wisdom over those 10 years, but lost a tremendous amount of peace of mind. It's taken a long time to regain a more balanced view of the world.

It's a tough job y'all do and it takes a heavy personal toll. My thanks and appreciation to you all.

BT


Thank you - it definitely does change you. The price law enforcement pays goes way beyond the 8-12 hours on duty.



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