RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church should have background checks
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/8/2008 3:15:28 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
It is the blanket approach I saw on her that pushed a button with me. If the hair stands up on the back of your neck so to speak when you see something like you described you would be foolish to just ignore it. At the same time you would not apply the same thing to every man at the scene.
I agree with you on this. Generalizing, blanket statements all too often occur on these threads. It's something we're all guilty of whether intended or not. I also think that all of us have that "gut" instinct, but that far too many times we dismiss it. Especially Christians as, in a general blanket sort of way, we don't want to see the bad in others or be accused of being judgmental.
One of the thinngs my training and experience has taught me is to listen to the things people say to determine where their heart is. All too often I've heard men and women who profess to be good Christians make comments/inuendos of a sexual nature that are contrary to scripture. It's usually laughed off and/or followed with a comment such as "I didn't really mean it that way." When conversation turns to a deeper examination of the motives, that brother/sister gets defensive. evasive, or just continues denial. And, like good, polite citizens, to preserve the social order we don't dig deeper for fear of conflict in the realtionship. Therefore, sin is never dealt with and does not get nailed to the cross to die. if it does get nailed to the cross, it all too frequently seems to resurrect itself.
I also think it bears repeating that when it comes to protecting our kids, we parents are ultimately responsible. Background checks are a good thing, but as I said before, they only divulge those who've already been caught. We need to know our kids and know them well. We need to know the kids are kids hang out with. We should also know the parents of our own kids friends. All too often it seems we expect background checks to do the job of protecting our families for us. Background checks do not absolve us of the responsibility of protecting our familes. All a background check is is a tool. I guess we all need to be a little more discerning.
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/8/2008 3:20:44 PM
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Qtman
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Good post and I totally agree.
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/8/2008 3:53:28 PM
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phosadaud
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I think there is a balance in all things. We absolutely need to listen to our inner voices. I may not be in law enforcement (yet  ), but I've had many experiences with gut feelings that I couldn't explain but that were born out later and protected me. We absolutely should follow our gut. That doesn't mean we "convict" someone based on our intuition - but rather we become hyper-vigilant and very watchful and use common sense to protect ourselves and our children.
Here's the thing though- I still have an issue with this idea that some have (and apparently some churches have) that any man who doesn't have a kiddo in the nursery is to be feared. I think this idea is harmful and unbiblical. Let me try to explain from 2 levels.
First, I think a very simple question we should ask ourselves in anything is this: Would our rule disqualify Jesus? Seriously. And in this instance - not allowing any man to change diapers or work in the nursery or whatever, would disqualify Jesus.
Second, I believe that too often our culture does a lousy job teaching men to be men - to care for their families and be compassionate. These are not "feminine" traits - these are human traits. I think when we make men afraid to care, there is a problem and when we treat all men like they must be perverts for loving kids and babies, there is a problem. We should be encouraging men in this - not making them afraid! Like I said, I come from a family where men love kids and it has made our family super close and wonderful. I also work at a church where men are very involved in the children's ministry (which is what our nursery is a part of because we don't believe nursery is just babysitting). Our children's pastor is a man. We have dad's who are active in the ministry. We have sons, we have uncles, we have grandpa's, we have men who never had kids (for whatever reason) who want to be a father figure in the lives of kids who don't have that. We should encourage that - not put shame on that.
Yes, we should be very wise and we should use caution. Do the background checks. Have the 2 deep policies and follow your gut. But recognize that woman abuse too. Recognize that being a dad doesn't make you any safer than the single guy (by the way, isn't the typical child molester married with kids anyway?).
And for the record: I come from a community of more than 200,000 people and attend a church that has a large number of officers and others in law enforcement (including the Sheriff) and these officers put their kids & babes in our nursery where men help with the duties.
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/8/2008 11:13:39 PM
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GroupW
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Nicely said.
BT
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/10/2008 12:34:48 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Oh, and I should add here that the man who works in the nursery where i work does have a child there -- I just didn't think, for the sake of the thread, to say so.
But I think our main protections are that there are no locked doors, there are windows on the doors and down the hall, and no one works alone in the nursery.
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/12/2008 12:54:11 AM
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Karaboo2
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Posting blind ...
I was the coordinator of the youth program at my former church. The application which needed to be filled out to volunteer with the kids stated that a background check was necessary and that the church would pay for the check. The head pastor changed his mind ... not about paying for the background checks ... but about requiring them at all. He said that his word "would suffice" ... and would be even more reliable than a background check. Well, the day the pastor decided to veto my decision to NOT allow a certain person to assist with the young children due to this person's KNOWN history of inappropriateness with children, there was a HUGE blowup ... and several parents got involved as well. Most of us have since left this parish... parents and workers alike. (The person in question was a schizophrenic male who had been caught more than once in inappropriate sitatuations, but because he said "sorry' the pastor said it was okay and he was more than welcome to help in the nursery and the primary Sunday school ... AARGH!!!)
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/12/2008 9:42:50 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Karaboo2
(The person in question was a schizophrenic male who had been caught more than once in inappropriate sitatuations, but because he said "sorry' the pastor said it was okay and he was more than welcome to help in the nursery and the primary Sunday school ... AARGH!!!)
Criminal neglect and lawsuit madness... shame on that pastor.
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/12/2008 11:42:26 AM
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McFatty
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It saddens me that we have to be so mistrusting of everyone in the world these days. I regretfully agree and say that for people who are alone with children as a major part of their duties, a background check is acceptable. It shouldn't be used for any other purpose in that individual, though. Unrelated past issues shouldn't disqualify someone who wishes to help children.
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/12/2008 4:41:13 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Unrelated past issues shouldn't disqualify someone who wishes to help children.
Are you a parent?
Anyone close to you ever was sexually molested?
Have you ever dealt with criminals?
Sincerely asking. Because I doubt any parent would be fine with a convicted sexual predator/offender being with their young babies/children.
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/12/2008 5:14:21 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
It saddens me that we have to be so mistrusting of everyone in the world these days. I regretfully agree and say that for people who are alone with children as a major part of their duties, a background check is acceptable. It shouldn't be used for any other purpose in that individual, though. Unrelated past issues shouldn't disqualify someone who wishes to help children.
Which unrelated issues do you think should not matter?
Thsnks
RC
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/12/2008 5:46:08 PM
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endless_night
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Yes, you should do and get a background check.
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/12/2008 10:47:54 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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Anyone who works with children should absolutely be run thru a background check. In fact, all church employees should be checked.
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/14/2008 3:00:19 AM
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dawgfan42
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I have no problem with background checks. I do have a problem with is that a person could be easily disqualified from a job or other position because he lets say went to the bathroom where he should not have. Or maybe a stupid stunt in college..
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/14/2008 3:11:55 AM
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McFatty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Unrelated past issues shouldn't disqualify someone who wishes to help children.
Are you a parent?
Anyone close to you ever was sexually molested?
Have you ever dealt with criminals?
Sincerely asking. Because I doubt any parent would be fine with a convicted sexual predator/offender being with their young babies/children.
I am not a parent. I have spoken to friends who have been sexually molested. I have dealt with "criminals", though I don't feel I should place them all under such a negative blanket. Let's face it, almost everyone has done something against the law at one point or another, even if it was taking a trinket from your aunt's dresser on a family visit. Does getting caught make one worse than not?
But I believe your question might be the same as the poster below you. What unrelated past issues might I be talking about?
It goes a bit into the realm we're discussing, like dawgfan stated above me, going into the wrong bathroom or a harmless (keyword there) college stunt shouldn't be a disqualifier. I was thinking, though, more along the lines of petty crimes as a teenager, a drug problem which has been decidedly overcome (for some time), causing a car accident, etc. Especially if a crime was committed before the offender came to Christ, these things, while they'd show up on a background check, shouldn't automatically disqualify someone who wants to help children.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/14/2008 6:11:50 AM
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zamdad
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McFatty is absolutely right. And, as I've said every time I've posted in this thread, the only folks background checks reveal are those who've been caught.
Sex offender registration began as a good thing. But, like so many other good things, it has a host of unintended consequences. I am a parent and I have contact with criminals daily. As I've stated again and again, I spent a good porition of my career supervising sex offenders in the community. Most registered offenders are not predators as labled by the state. Not the type of predators we parents are wanting to shield our children from. Most are men and women who have made poor decisions based on very poor sexual boundaries.
Unfortunately, all of them get lumped into the category of predatory offender. I've seen far too many now who have engaged in a sexual realtionship with a girl a few years younger; a girl who has not reached the age of consent, and then been convicted of a crime because of the act. In the state I live in, all convicted sex offenders are required to complete sex offender treatment and to pass a polygraph as part of the treatment. Having particiapted in the treatment process, I can honestly say that there are far too many in the church who are just as guilty of the same thoughts that predatory offenders admit to in the treatment process. This is one of those areas we need to be examining the plank in our own eye before looking at the speck in a brother's eye.
And, once again, we need to be engaging our kids and getting to know them so well that they can't keep secrets from us. We parents are the ultimate background check.
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/14/2008 10:46:07 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dawgfan42
I have no problem with background checks. I do have a problem with is that a person could be easily disqualified from a job or other position because he lets say went to the bathroom where he should not have. Or maybe a stupid stunt in college..
That would depend on the circumstances of the situations whether they would be a deal killer or not.
Thsnks
RC
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/14/2008 10:51:18 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: dawgfan42
I have no problem with background checks. I do have a problem with is that a person could be easily disqualified from a job or other position because he lets say went to the bathroom where he should not have. Or maybe a stupid stunt in college..
That would depend on the circumstances of the situations whether they would be a deal killer or not.
Thsnks
RC
Yup. Background checks do not eliminate the need for some common sense in approaching the issue.
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"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/14/2008 3:21:08 PM
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phosadaud
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I think we would all agree that passing a background check does not make one safe. That's why all churches should have specific safeguards in place that everyone must follow when working with kids (never alone with a child, etc).
A couple points though on background checks (at least every I have worked):
1. At least in Washington state, only crimes from age 18 or older are listed. If you did something stupid as a teenager, it will not show up. (which can work both ways in terms of being a good thing or a bad thing).
2. Every place I have ever worked is not going to disqualify them because there is something on their record. The question is what was the crime, when did it happen, what happened, etc. We would not disqualify someone because they got caught smoking pot in college. We would disqualify someone who had a long, current list of assault & battery on their record. This is true of every place I have ever worked or applied. - Even with law enforcement although they are generally much, much, much more strict than your average employer.
3. One problem with knowing how to treat "harmless pranks" is how do you determine what was a stupid thing as a college kid that meant no harm and what was a sign of serious problems. Child predators don't wake up one morning from being a law abiding citizen to raping & killing children. It starts with the "small stuff". Also, with plea bargains and the difficulty of proving cases of molestation, someone may have plead guilty to something that sounds not to bad, but the actual crime was much worse - there was just no way of proving it so the State took what it could get with the lesser charge.
It's not an easy issue.
Also, I think we have to be reminded that working with someone else's kids is NOT a right. I would rather err on the side of caution and ask an adult to minister in another area of the church, than be too lax and have it result in a small child being harmed.
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Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: DO you think children /youth worker in church shoul... - 7/14/2008 6:14:35 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Unrelated past issues shouldn't disqualify someone who wishes to help children.
Are you a parent?
Anyone close to you ever was sexually molested?
Have you ever dealt with criminals?
Sincerely asking. Because I doubt any parent would be fine with a convicted sexual predator/offender being with their young babies/children.
I am not a parent. I have spoken to friends who have been sexually molested. I have dealt with "criminals", though I don't feel I should place them all under such a negative blanket. Let's face it, almost everyone has done something against the law at one point or another, even if it was taking a trinket from your aunt's dresser on a family visit. Does getting caught make one worse than not?
But I believe your question might be the same as the poster below you. What unrelated past issues might I be talking about?
It goes a bit into the realm we're discussing, like dawgfan stated above me, going into the wrong bathroom or a harmless (keyword there) college stunt shouldn't be a disqualifier. I was thinking, though, more along the lines of petty crimes as a teenager, a drug problem which has been decidedly overcome (for some time), causing a car accident, etc. Especially if a crime was committed before the offender came to Christ, these things, while they'd show up on a background check, shouldn't automatically disqualify someone who wants to help children.
Thank you for answering my questions. The stark point remains, the stickler if I may, that no sensible parent will willingly leave their infant, their children alone with a convicted sexual predator.
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