RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Terrorists
View related threads:
(in this forum
| in all forums)
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/5/2008 12:14:45 AM
|
|
|
Leon_Figg3
Posts: 501
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
I just wanted to interject into the conversation that I don't think Al-Qaeda is going after civilians because they hate our 'freedoms' and our way of life. They are going after our government via attacking civilians because of our government's policies in the Mideast. Usama and Al-Qaeda could care less about my freedoms. They hate what our government does in their lands, it seems to me.
God bless all,
Galadriel2
I would suggest that you read a little about: Sayyid Qutb, Wahhabism, and the Muslim Brotherhod to name a few aspects that need to be looked at. These are individuals and philosophies that are believed to have heavily influenced the jihadist and extremist movements we see today in Islam. These are individuals and philosophies that largerly predate the establishment of the State of Israel and our large scale involvement in the Mideast.
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/5/2008 12:23:26 AM
|
|
|
fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
|
quote:
I would suggest that you read a little about: Sayyid Qutb, Wahhabism, and the Muslim Brotherhod to name a few aspects that need to be looked at. These are individuals and philosophies that are believed to have heavily influenced the jihadist and extremist movements we see today in Islam. These are individuals and philosophies that largerly predate the establishment of the State of Israel and our large scale involvement in the Mideast.
Wahhabism is older, but the Qutb branch comes out of anti-American radicalism during the 1950s and 1960s. I think you're definitely right that these are the intellectual foundations for the terrorism we're seeing today. I believe the goal was to eliminate the secular governments of the Middle East, which were seen as under Western influence, and to reinstate the pure Muslim state that they believed once existed in those countries.
Kind of ironic, really, that that part of the world is still dealing with the aftermath of the sixties, too.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/5/2008 12:51:34 AM
|
|
|
galadriel2
Posts: 212
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
|
Thanks Leon...for the response and recommendations. I have only read of Qutb what I have read of him quoted in other books. I have read all of Usama bin Laden's public messages though, books about thinking like a terrorist, Michael Scheuer's books (former CIA assigned to Usama) on Al-Qaeda, Peter Bergen's stuff and others. My general impression of Al-Qaeda is that they have nothing against me personally as an individual living in the West. What they hate is the effect the West is having on their lands - and there are times when I can't say that I blame them. I mean the anti-Christ is going to arise out of the West - no? The good stuff about America? our rights, our technology...they don't appear to have a problem with it. What Qutb had a problem with is what many Christians of his day in America had a problem with as well and some still do. I think that Qutb's observations about the frivolity of American life is very accurate (take the TV show 'The View' for example - or when Rosie was on TV - all the soap operas?). But Qutb doesn't take into account the good in America. Al-Qaeda should weigh that more in their thinking - even if the bad outweighs the good because when you go back into Genesis the Lord told Father Abraham in chapter 18 that even if there were just 10 righteous people in Sodom and Gomorrah He wouldn't destroy them - but there weren't even 10. If godliness is having the proper attitude towards God, and if submission to His will is the essence of Islam - Usama and his friends should seriously look at how long-suffering and slow to punish sin God really is because it indicates to us something of His will for us....Anyway, I think it is mostly our policies that drive Usama and his hatred for them, as well as a hatred for people. He doesn't hate our rights, though. Usama has had little to no exposure to the love of God in Christ and so how can he love others as Christ did the way we are commanded to in the NT?
God bless,
Galadriel2
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/5/2008 1:05:30 AM
|
|
|
backrowbaptist
Posts: 321
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
fiat_lux
What concerns me is that many Western governments don't seem to have made up their mind whether to treat them as prisoners of war or as criminals, and is therefore opting for a strange grey middle area where virtually anything goes.
Okay, here we go again. They aren't criminals OR POWs. They are ILLEGAL COMBATANTS. There has been a classification in the Geneva Convention and International law to deal with just these sort of people. Why can't anyone championing the terrorists legal rights even acknowledge who and what they really are?
quote:
WormHeart
The IRA terrorist were just as fanatic as these people.
Please, you don't really think that, do you? The IRA were thugs, but they did not go to the brutal extremes that the Islamo-facists do today. And besides, weren't the IRA for the most part British subjects? The terrorist in britain are not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
There apparently WAS evidence enough to deport them. [snip]
The issue was NOT locking them up for life. It was releasing them back into society (with full priveledges of the British Nanny State) instead of deporting them. Get the facts straight, it will help you understand the cause of the next rash of suicide bombings on your side of the pond.
WormHeart
Did you even read what I wrote?
Yes, I did. I think you missed the part of the article that stated
quote:
The judges were worried that, at his pending trial in Jordan, the court there might use evidence from another witness that had been obtained by torturing him. This concern persisted despite the Jordanians' assurances that they would not do so, since this was against their own law. Again, if there was enough evidence to convict them of lesser charges, there was enough evidence to deport them.
quote:
WormHeart
And I do understand the cause of the next bombings. Come on – We (Denmark) will probably be hit within two years. Most of the other nations have been hit frequently for a long time .
Well, we haven't been hit in seven years, largely due to the Patriot Act and the steps our intelligence agencies have made to protect us. And despite what the hysterics tell you, it has NOT come at the cost of anyone's freedom. So if you know you're going to be hit, I suggest you all man-up and pressure your government to adopt similar policies
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/5/2008 2:55:27 AM
|
|
|
fiat_lux
Posts: 290
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
Status: offline
|
quote:
Okay, here we go again. They aren't criminals OR POWs. They are ILLEGAL COMBATANTS. There has been a classification in the Geneva Convention and International law to deal with just these sort of people. Why can't anyone championing the terrorists legal rights even acknowledge who and what they really are?
The individuals in question were arrested in Britain, not on the battlefield. They weren't designated illegal combatants. Unless and until they are they have to be treated either as civilians or as prisoners of war. In any event, if you're going to hold them indefinitely, they have to be either POWs (until the end of the war) or they have to be charged and convicted.
No one is "championing" terrorists here. Personally, what I am championing is basic human rights. The people who have been detained are human. Ergo, they have these rights. Personally, I can't prove they are terrorists. The government is the one who alleges they are. And terrorism is a crime. Which is why I think the government should back up its claims by trying and convicting them.
If this can't be done, then I can't be confident that the government is telling me the truth when it detains people. And I don't trust such an expansion of government powers. I guess if I was more liberal, I would be more trusting of government. If they are terrorists, then it ought to be a simple matter to treat them with due process and hold them. If they aren't, then the government ought to be forced through due process so that innocent people aren't held unjustly.
In one of the present cases, the detainee in question could have been tried on a lesser sentence and detained. I think that should have been done. At the very least it would buy us some time to consider what to do next. In the meantime, I can understand the deportation decision. Whatever Jordanian formal assurances might be, there are a raft of torture allegations regarding their prison system, and I find it quite plausible that at least some of them are true.
I have to wonder what he's being tried on in Jordan and why the trial can only take place there. Easier to get a conviction there, perhaps?
quote:
Please, you don't really think that, do you? The IRA were thugs, but they did not go to the brutal extremes that the Islamo-facists do today. And besides, weren't the IRA for the most part British subjects? The terrorist in britain are not.
But they are under British law, at least for the time being.Other terrorists have also been British subjects, like the ones who carried out the attacks a couple years ago.
quote:
Well, we haven't been hit in seven years, largely due to the Patriot Act and the steps our intelligence agencies have made to protect us. And despite what the hysterics tell you, it has NOT come at the cost of anyone's freedom. So if you know you're going to be hit, I suggest you all man-up and pressure your government to adopt similar policies
Even if that allegation were true, I suspect you'd have a difficult time proving it. It might be useful to dial down the rhetoric and the patronizing statements. Again, historically, an unrestrained state is a greater danger than any terrorist group. Therefore any expansion of the state must be regarded very cautiously.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/5/2008 3:32:04 AM
|
|
|
galadriel2
Posts: 212
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
|
There are two problems with Al-Qaeda and how they think about things: 1) they don't separate the kingdom of God from the kingdoms of this earth, and 2) the spirit that animates them is all wrong. With regards to the first point, just because someone is a soldier in the kingdom of God doesn't make them a soldier in the kingdoms of this world. Al-Qaeda has no concept of this distinction. With regards to the second point, Al-Qaeda has no concept that there is no experience of God outside of the love of Christ Jesus so they can hate men in the name of God very easily.
We would be wise to not fall into these same traps that they have.
God bless all abundantly in Christ,
Galadriel2
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/5/2008 3:59:29 AM
|
|
|
WormHeart
Posts: 284
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3
WormHeart,
I am sorry for not mentioning that though I am aware that terrorism has always existed, it is possible that terrorism has grown as a means for provoking and conducting war since World War II.
I must humbly disaggree that terrorism in one period of time is anymore a threat than terrorism in another period of time. If one is to compare terrorism in one period of time to that of another one needs to take into account a number of variables, asisde from the fact that they were terrorists.
True, and perhaps it is a little silly to talk about “most dangerous”, but it seems a lot of people are saying these Radical Islamic ones are a threat we have never faced before.
I would suggest that having around 4 million terrorist living in your own nation was a considerable threat to the black population.
Nevertheless you dealt with them politically and through courts. I don’t recall any camps being built to keep suspected KKK indefinitely.
Why are these other terrorist so special?
Perhaps we actually agree. I don’t see why we should not deal with them through the courts.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/5/2008 4:16:10 AM
|
|
|
WormHeart
Posts: 284
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
Okay, here we go again. They aren't criminals OR POWs. They are ILLEGAL COMBATANTS. There has been a classification in the Geneva Convention and International law to deal with just these sort of people. Why can't anyone championing the terrorists legal rights even acknowledge who and what they really are?
Lets see:
quote:
The phrase "unlawful combatant" does not appear in the Third Geneva Convention (GCIII). However, Article 4 of GCIII does describe categories under which a person may be entitled to POW status; and there are other international treaties which deny lawful combatant status for mercenaries and children. In the United States, the Military Commissions Act of 2006 codified the legal definition of this term, and invested the U.S. President with broad discretion to determine whether a person may be designated an unlawful enemy combatant. The assumption that such a category as unlawful combatant exists is not contradicted by the findings by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in the Celebici Judgment. The judgement quoted the 1958 ICRC commentary on the Fourth Geneva Convention: Every person in enemy hands must be either a prisoner of war and, as such, be covered by the Third Convention; or a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention. Furthermore, "There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law,"
Unlawful Combatant
So it seems you cannot leave them in a vacuum outside the law.
And that domestic terrorists, mercenaries and children cannot be given Unlawful Combatant status.
The wiki goes on to point out:
quote:
Human Rights Watch have pointed out that in a judgement, the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia interpreted the International Committee of the Red Cross, Commentary: IV Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (Geneva: 1958) to mean that:
there is no gap between the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions. If an individual is not entitled to the protection of the Third Convention as a prisoner of war ... he or she necessarily falls within the ambit of [the Fourth Convention], provided that its article 4 requirements [defining a protected person] are satisfied.
and
quote:
Many governments and human rights organizations worry that the introduction of the unlawful combatant status sets a dangerous precedent for other regimes to follow. When the government of Liberia detained American activist Hassan Bility in 2002, Liberian authorities dismissed the complaints of the United States, responding that he had been detained as an unlawful combatant.
It sets a dangerous precedent and is IMO unworthy of a western goverment to keep people outside the law. We have courts - let them deal with them.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/5/2008 4:35:33 AM
|
|
|
WormHeart
Posts: 284
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
WormHeart
The IRA terrorist were just as fanatic as these people.
Please, you don't really think that, do you? The IRA were thugs, but they did not go to the brutal extremes that the Islamo-facists do today.
No?
quote:
The attack was followed by several more, most notably the Manchester Bombing which destroyed a large area of the centre of the city on 15 June 1996. It was the largest bomb attack in Britain since World War II, and while the attack avoided many fatalities due to the rapid response of the emergency services to an earlier telephone warning made to a local television station, over 200 people were injured in the attack, many of them outside the established cordon. The damage caused by the blast was valued at £411 million.
And
quote:
In August 1998, a Real IRA bomb in Omagh killed 29 civilians.
The paramilitaries' activities
How are they different?
Sorry about the quote-storm, but I do not see any difference between them. Bombings are bombings.
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
And besides, weren't the IRA for the most part British subjects? The terrorist in britain are not.
Yes, so we should throw the book at them. Trial, conviction and maximum punishments, please. But we do need the basics – evidence etc. If they cannot prove something, then either kick them out to where they come from or put them under heavy surveillance.
This time the law got in the way of deportation.
quote:
Well, we haven't been hit in seven years, largely due to the Patriot Act and the steps our intelligence agencies have made to protect us.
Congratulations, that is a good thing. I might suggest that you being thousands of miles away between two oceans has something to say as well. 
quote:
And despite what the hysterics tell you, it has NOT come at the cost of anyone's freedom. So if you know you're going to be hit, I suggest you all man-up and pressure your government to adopt similar policies
No – if we change our society out of fear for crazy people, then we loose. Our intelligence has stopped two attempted terror-plots so far (that I know of) and they got long years in jail and a following deportation.
We wont change our way of life, though. The police cannot make random strip-searches, or barge in on private property without proper cause, and I prefer it that way.
If we build camps where we keep people indefinitely, we changes for the worse.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Another Sign Europe is Doomed: Brit Judges Free Ter... - 7/5/2008 8:03:43 PM
|
|
|
iknownothing
Posts: 18
Joined: 6/10/2005
Status: offline
|
I posted the following quote:
"But if if makes you feel better, maybe we can refer to them as "walking pieces of Islamo-Fascist garbage". Is that better?"
And then someone reacted to my quote by saying:
"I would first and foremost refer to them as human beings. If it makes you feel better to come up with derogatory slurs, that of course is your privilege."
I justed wanted to say point well taken. Perhaps I was being too extreme in my attempt to engage in hyperbole, and I take it back.
But then I would make the point that the western tendency to consider the radical Muslims as equals in debate or conventional war or statecraft puts us at a huge disadvantage. This is because in their view, if you are a non-believer, you are certainly not considered equal to a Muslim. This is why they so often refer to non-believers as "pigs" and "donkeys".
This is also why they think that when it comes to the greater struggle between Islam and non-Muslims, they think it is perfectly okay to cheat and lie to non-believers, or they at least don't consider it as much of a sin as lying to a fellow Muslim.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
