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RE: Teach Creation outside the Scinece curriculum - 7/8/2008 9:23:51 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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quote:
In Newfoundland, there used to be six different school systems, one for Catholics, one for Methodists, one for Presbyterians, one for Seventh-Day Adventists, etc. And, of course, some people still had to choose a school that did not teach their own faith, because there was no school system for Jewish students or atheist students or pagan students.
Wow, never heard that.
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RE: Teach Creation outside the Scinece curriculum - 7/8/2008 9:37:05 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
quote:
In Newfoundland, there used to be six different school systems, one for Catholics, one for Methodists, one for Presbyterians, one for Seventh-Day Adventists, etc. And, of course, some people still had to choose a school that did not teach their own faith, because there was no school system for Jewish students or atheist students or pagan students.
Wow, never heard that.
Yes, and they actually had to get a constitutional amendment to bring it down to two. (there is still a Catholic system separate from the non-Catholic system.)
Similarly, the province of Quebec had to get a constitutional amendment to change their system from a Catholic-Protestant system to a French-English system. Under the religious division, both Catholic and Protestant systems had to maintain French and English schools, for while most francophones are Catholic and most non-francophones are not Catholic, one still had to provide for the French-speaking Protestant or Jew and for the English-speaking Catholics. So one actually had four systems.
By switching from a religious to a language division, one does get down to only two systems.
Ontario is still where Quebec used to be, with Catholic and non-Catholic schools and some of both teaching in French.
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RE: Teach Creation outside the Scinece curriculum - 7/8/2008 10:16:40 AM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1025
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
What I was proposing was not a comparative religion class. It would be a class where Bible truths could be taught as truths. We would have to make some sort of accmodation for the children of people who believe in a different scripture, or no scripture at all.
But most of us would be able to get a better education for our children than we do today.
That's not allowed in the public schools.
If only there were some sort of building or school, where children could be taken to be instructed in the tenets of their religion!
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Teach Creation outside the Scinece curriculum - 7/8/2008 10:18:24 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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quote:
If only there were some sort of building or school, where children could be taken to be instructed in the tenets of their religion!
*chuckle*
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RE: Teach Creation outside the Scinece curriculum - 7/8/2008 11:14:09 AM
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Method
Posts: 1095
Joined: 9/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
What I was proposing was not a comparative religion class. It would be a class where Bible truths could be taught as truths.
That would violate the Establishment Clause found in the First Amendment.
quote:
Comparative religion sounds like something that might be a good study at the college level.
I think it would be good at the high school level as an elective.
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RE: Teach Creation outside the Scinece curriculum - 7/8/2008 1:55:24 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Method
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
What I was proposing was not a comparative religion class. It would be a class where Bible truths could be taught as truths.
That would violate the Establishment Clause found in the First Amendment.
quote:
Comparative religion sounds like something that might be a good study at the college level.
I think it would be good at the high school level as an elective.
When the place of religious education in elementary public schools was a hot issue in Ontario, I devised a curriculum outline for multi-faith education that would be usable from kindergarten on.
I have also seen a beautiful text on multi-faith education created for a Grade Five level together with extensive lesson plans for teachers to use.
There are certainly some aspects of comparative religion that need to be left to upper levels of education, but there is a lot you can do even in kindergarten.
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RE: Teach Creation outside the Scinece curriculum - 7/9/2008 4:12:36 PM
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atheistinpeace
Posts: 210
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
the teacher explained it as a source of common metaphors and imagery and allegory that appear in literature.
Well, your teacher was wrong, and I apologize that you had to listen to such lies in your English class. God's Word is not a mere piece of literature that can be used as firewood when one becomes sick and tired of it. It is the most unique and powerful book this world has ever seen. It by far surpasses Shakespeare and puts it to shame!
You must have not read Shakespeare!
He may be a bit shaky on explaining the origin of the universe, but he was one fine writer.
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Teach Creation outside the Scinece curriculum - 7/9/2008 5:05:11 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
He may be a bit shaky on explaining the origin of the universe, but he was one fine writer.
I know, and just imagine what that makes God's Word! I'm all for Shakespeare, but He's nothing compared to the mouth of God.
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RE: Teach Creation outside the Scinece curriculum - 7/10/2008 12:19:39 AM
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Strider33
Posts: 114
Joined: 4/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
I think there is another choice:
Have some schools where the Bible is presented a truth.
Have some schools where the Q'uran is presented as truth.
and so on.
And have some schools where nothing other than reason is presented as truth.
Let the parents choose where to send their kids.
That is the path to religious conflict. When Christians and Muslims and Wiccans never get to know one another because they are kept apart, they develop negative stereotypes about each other.
We have seen this in the past when different Christians were kept in separate schools. How much strife in Ireland would have been avoided if Protestant and Catholic kids could have been friends in the schoolyard instead of learning about each other in separate school systems?
In Newfoundland, there used to be six different school systems, one for Catholics, one for Methodists, one for Presbyterians, one for Seventh-Day Adventists, etc. And, of course, some people still had to choose a school that did not teach their own faith, because there was no school system for Jewish students or atheist students or pagan students.
Setting up separate schools is expensive for the taxpayer and socially divisive.
Scriptures can be presented as truth in the home and in the place of worship. The public school should remain neutral as to which, if any, are true.
I don't believe that separate schools are the path to religious conflict.
I'd have to see some very convincing evidence to persuade me otherwise.
The public schools are not neutral today. They are biased towards agnosticism. Parents who want their children to be educated in a Christian setting are increasingly finding alternatives to the public schools. I wouldn't be surprised if people of other persuasion were doing the same thing.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Teach Creation outside the Scinece curriculum - 7/10/2008 12:48:33 AM
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Method
Posts: 1095
Joined: 9/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
I don't believe that separate schools are the path to religious conflict.
I'd have to see some very convincing evidence to persuade me otherwise.
I believe the same. I truly believe that a World Religions or a religious survey class would fit just fine in a public high school. No one, including myself, is afraid of religion. What I dislike is the idea of the government pushing one religion, or even atheism, on to people over others. That is not the job of government. However, understanding religions in a secular context does serve an educational goal.
quote:
The public schools are not neutral today. They are biased towards agnosticism.
I would argue that they are biased towards secularism, being that the government was founded as a secular government.
quote:
Parents who want their children to be educated in a Christian setting are increasingly finding alternatives to the public schools. I wouldn't be surprised if people of other persuasion were doing the same thing.
Very true. The christian bias in schools has been removed over the years.
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RE: Teach Creation outside the Scinece curriculum - 7/10/2008 1:19:00 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
The public schools are not neutral today. They are biased towards agnosticism.
I don't think they have to be. In France, the government decrees that schools must be secular. No religion is allowed in the schools. I think that is wrong, but it is a model followed in most of North America too.
I prefer a multi-faith approach to an all-out secular approach. I think public schools should teach about religion. (Note the word "about". It is important that public schools not teach religion, but rather teach about religion.) Religion is too important to pass over in silence.
A multi-faith approach is constitutional. But favoring one religion over another (or favoring religion over atheism/agnosticism) is not. As long as believers are prepared to support a multi-faith course in public schools, they have a strong case for rejecting a curriculum that, by its silence on religion, is biased toward agnosticism.
My experience, however, is that while agnostics and atheists have no objection to having courses on religion in the schools, even compulsory courses which their own children would have to take, Christians are adamantly opposed to permitting their children to learn about Islam, Buddhism, etc.
When the Ontario Ministry of Education revised its rules on opening exercises, they chose to allow schools any one of three options:
1. The national anthem and nothing else.
2. The national anthem and a moment of silence during which students might pray or meditate as they chose.
3. The national anthem and a reading from any sort of inspirational literature, including the Bible, the Lord's Prayer (read, not prayed), or any other Christian literature, as part of a cycle of readings drawn from many faiths and secular sources.
In my school district, the inter-faith organization I belonged to strongly recommended option 3, and we got it. Option 3 is also used in the largest school board in the province: Toronto--one of the most multi-cultural cities in the world. The special days of various religions are often marked by a reading from the holy books or teachings of that faith.
But in other districts, Option3 was strongly opposed, not by atheists or agnostics, but by Christians. They were so close-minded they would rather have a moment of silence or nothing at all than to have a minute a day given to a cycle of multi-faith readings.
If North American schools are becoming increasingly secular, it is largely at the insistence of Christians who do not tolerate exposing children to any religion other than Christianity. Given the choice between a multi-faith public school and a secular public school, many Christians insist on a secular school.
And having got what they insisted on, they then complain and withdraw their children into private schooling where they can teach religious intolerance undisturbed.
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