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Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 9:26:26 AM
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yours
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Hi! (I hope I'm in the right forum for this  ...)
So, I attend a church that I've been unhappy with for a while; I'm a youth leader there. I know that I'm going to leave, I just don't want to leave until I for sure find somewhere to go. I went to a small, pretty new church yesterday for Sunday service and loved it. The pastor and his family even took me to dinner after the service. It was awesome. The only issue I have is that the ministry is under a ministry who is under Creflo Dollar, who is under Kenneth Hagin. I do not agree AT ALL with the teachings of these men. (This post is not about the WOF movement, by the way). With all of that said, should I continue to try and see if I like it there? The pastor is NOT WOF, he's actually opposite... he and I have the same outlook on a lot of issues. He's never met these men, and his teachings are different than theres. I've heard the whole talk about something 'trickling from the head down'. Please help! My thoughts are everywhere! I love the church but not it's distant leadership. Any suggestions?
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 9:34:40 AM
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JimboFletch
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Would you have the same struggle with this position if the "church" was under a ministry by Sun Myung Moon?
If you know the head of a church group is an apostate or false prophet, it should be a no-brainer, MOVE ON QUICKLY!
You have been warned by the association that church has with those men. God has given you more warning at this point than many get without deliberately praying and digging. Ignore it at your own peril.
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 9:48:57 AM
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earthless
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I agree with Jimbo and what struck me as odd is how can the pastor of that church not be in agreement with WoF teachings and yet be under the two false teachers listed?
Find a doctrinally sound church.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 10:07:52 AM
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dianetavegia
Posts: 1952
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From: Southern Baptist, Non Calvinist, Pro Life Ga. girl
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Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
A little cancer is still cancer. A little part of the food was spoiled. A little piece of the meat was covered in maggots.........
Jimbo is so very correct. Keep searching!
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 10:48:41 AM
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funny_girl
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I think that each church has it's own personality even if 'affiliated' with a denomination. Strangely enough, I don't see that it's so heathen to have faith as Jesus said you must have faith as child to inherit eternal life. Be lead by God's spirit. If you begin working with this pastor and later decide that something doesn't mesh then move on but it sounds to me like it may be OK. Pray about it and do what you feel in your heart God wants you to do. I wouldn't let ANY forum influence such a decision as if it's God. A forum cannot replace you seeking Him for the answers.
So the real question is, "What is God telling you to do?"
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"...bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as imposters; known yet regarded as unknown...poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything." II Corinthians 6:8-10
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 10:54:15 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lil_gringa
I think that each church has it's own personality even if 'affiliated' with a denomination. Strangely enough, I don't see that it's so heathen to have faith as Jesus said you must have faith as child to inherit eternal life. Be lead by God's spirit. If you begin working with this pastor and later decide that something doesn't mesh then move on but it sounds to me like it may be OK. Pray about it and do what you feel in your heart God wants you to do. I wouldn't let ANY forum influence such a decision as if it's God. A forum cannot replace you seeking Him for the answers.
So the real question is, "What is God telling you to do?"
So you don't see a problem with a church that is "covered" by false teachers?
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 11:02:29 AM
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funny_girl
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I don't have time to argue earthless, but I don't think that everything that those two ministries preaches is false. Do they teach that you don't need Christ to go to heaven? Is it the fact that they call things that are not as though they are? I'm not in agreement 100% to the prosperity preaching when Corinthians clearly teaches that some will be content in ALL situations, including poverty, but isn't it true that we glean the good and throw out and reject the bad? You will not find not a SINGLE perfect person on this earth besides Jesus Christ. We are following Him and not a man. People have flaws. I think it's ridiculous to criticize those who walk by faith as though they are false teachers. The reverse is true, those who preach against faith are false.
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"...bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as imposters; known yet regarded as unknown...poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything." II Corinthians 6:8-10
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 11:07:14 AM
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earthless
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The Jesus they preach is not the Jesus of the Bible. How anything else can even matter (in regards to all the items you listed) is beyond me.
By your own admission you're not too familiar with what they have preached and continue to do so. I recommend you do some studying to find out before you continue to recommend other believers to not worry about paying heed to them.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 11:11:15 AM
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earthless
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I also want to add that I was not "arguing". Why do some view it as being argumentative if we simply obey the Word of God when it comes to false teachers and false prophets?
But getting back to the topic - I would like to know how it is possible for a pastor/church to be under certain individuals yet claim they do not adhere to their teachings.
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 11:53:15 AM
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hjemerson
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Back to the frist post. If you are in close walk with the Lord and He has told you it is time to seek other place to serve Him HOW CAN YOU STAY? Why? You are not beening in HIS will and Should not be teaching /leading any youth group with these toughts. God opened a door for you to find a place were you can serve with a new church home. Dont walk run to the door and Thank God for giving you a place to serve with a willing heart. Remeber to service with people that have the same teaching Why ?How can you aline your self with teaching you do not feel is right with what you belive and have been taught in the frist place, It take a strong person /christian to walk a wys and find the truth, Maybe it time your pastor does some soul searching to!
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 12:00:53 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hjemerson
...God opened a door for you to find a place were you can serve with a new church home. Dont walk run to the door and Thank God for giving you a place to serve with a willing heart...
An if that "opened door" is at a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness church, what would that say?
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 12:48:58 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dianetavegia
Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
A little cancer is still cancer. A little part of the food was spoiled. A little piece of the meat was covered in maggots.........
Jimbo is so very correct. Keep searching!
Agree!
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 1:01:30 PM
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funny_girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: hjemerson
...God opened a door for you to find a place were you can serve with a new church home. Dont walk run to the door and Thank God for giving you a place to serve with a willing heart...
An if that "opened door" is at a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness church, what would that say?
God would not open a door there! LOL
Well, I'm a licensed A/G pastor, but I don't agree with everything they do. There isn't a 'perfect' organization. Look for a Bible believing church and one that you feel agrees with the leading of the Lord. As we grow, God will move us along to the places we need to be. We've served in a 'prosperity' type church and influenced those in scripture. It was for a season and then the Lord moved us on.
_____________________________
"...bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as imposters; known yet regarded as unknown...poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything." II Corinthians 6:8-10
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 2:11:28 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lil_gringa
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: hjemerson
...God opened a door for you to find a place were you can serve with a new church home. Dont walk run to the door and Thank God for giving you a place to serve with a willing heart...
An if that "opened door" is at a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness church, what would that say?
God would not open a door there! LOL
Exactly my point. All opened doors aren't from God.
I'm still a believer in not being unequally yoked, whether we're talking marriage or aligning ourself with a "church" whose leadership preaches "another gospel." And we know what Paul said about folk that do that.
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 3:06:46 PM
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hjemerson
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I was in the mind this person was in close walk with the Lord and was asking for a answer from God.(after much pray) If that was so he would know it was the answer he was ask for if the door was for him It sounded like he was in a place now, he did not agree with the teaching etc!!! (should not be teaching if he does not agree with the chruch statement him or any one else) so Any person that is walking and trying to service the Lords needs to listen.pray and wait ,seek the correct place for them! I would not think a strong christian in his faith or walk would look in to another reglion ! TRUE all door are not from the Lord But God does give us the free will to chose ! I am a lay person and do have the belives if you do not agree you should find the place you can be in like agreement, that is one of the freedom God and here in the USA gives us.
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 4:00:22 PM
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yours
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I thank everyone for their posts. Wow! You all were fast in replying. I'm reading what everyone has said, and you all have make a lot of good points, but I'm still on the fence and this. I think I'm going to meet with him and voice my concerns and see where he stands in all of this. I'm not exactly sure either, why he's under these people. The last church he went to was finances, prosperity, total health, etc. However, a lot of what they asked for ($$) was to build the kingdom, not just buy cars and houses. When he left to start his own church, the pastor there gave him his blessing and he still mentors him at times. With all of that said, I'm still on the fence. I'll email him tomorrow. Thanks everyone for you replys. Keep 'em coming!
P.S. I'm resigning from my leadership position @ my current church effective next week, I just have to write the letter and meet with the senior pastor. I know I can't continue to be a youth leader and feel the way I do about the ministry. I'll continue to stay there however until I find somewhere else.
Thanks again.
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/7/2008 7:06:28 PM
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hjemerson
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I will be in pray you will stay in close walk with the Lord and find the church up can agree and serve the Lord in a postive way, It may not be one of the easiers thing you have done or will do.But you will have a closer stronger walk with Him!
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/8/2008 10:14:01 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hjemerson
I was in the mind this person was in close walk with the Lord and was asking for a answer from God.(after much pray) If that was so he would know it was the answer he was ask for if the door was for him It sounded like he was in a place now, he did not agree with the teaching etc!!! (should not be teaching if he does not agree with the chruch statement him or any one else) so Any person that is walking and trying to service the Lords needs to listen.pray and wait ,seek the correct place for them! I would not think a strong christian in his faith or walk would look in to another reglion ! TRUE all door are not from the Lord But God does give us the free will to chose ! I am a lay person and do have the belives if you do not agree you should find the place you can be in like agreement, that is one of the freedom God and here in the USA gives us.
I have a close friend that, after much prayer and council from othet ministers, left his job to go into a ministry position at a church. He was so excited about the "open door" that he ignored warning signs that all wasn't well. Within a few months, there was a major split in the church due to pastoral problems and my friend found himself unemployed. He is now back in his old field, but in another city and another employer.
Walking into an open door where there are major warning signs is to throw oneself into a snake pit without any reason to complain when injected with deadly venom.
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/8/2008 10:35:06 AM
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hjemerson
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Who to say that open doors are all so lesson to be learned. I still feel if the Lord opens the door and you do not us it you will have other brigdes to cross that you may have not if you take the Lord opening (as we have in our life not to folllow the Lords at time we had to wait and take the test and accept the) You ask the Lord for answers, but when He give you the way to go , ( sa many time the answer may not be what WE WANT)if you sit and donot use the answer what good is that! True life may not be prefect if you do go the way the Lord has planned for you But then again the Bible tells us we will have test and trials all along the way! No pastor.missairay etc, I know or have read about has had the smoothis path the hold way ! For your friend this may have been the way to show him to move and start over yes even more than once and who to think or say it may happen a gain as he walks with the Lords! Only the Lord can know and we can trust with faith that we are listening and following the plan the Lord has for us and best of all if we lose our way (NO not lose our savation)He will be waiting to pick us up and start on the right path again all In Christ love for us. That I am thankful for .I have made a few tips off the path and yes even been thur a few doors and let a few doors close that now I Belive and know only God could have open for us/me!I guess just have to wait and Ask HIM some day! Pray .Listen,Follow with sprit,heart not alway just what looks best for us at the time. (Hope this makes sense) .I can wait to See What things I Have missed in life if I had stay close and listen to the Lords But then again I can't wait to see what God still has in Plan for me in the days,month,years to come if He taries!
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/8/2008 12:13:50 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hjemerson
Who to say that open doors are all so lesson to be learned. I still feel if the Lord opens the door...
If your hypothesis is correct, then there would have been no need for the numerous warnings that Jesus, His apostles, and other NT writers gave us to beware of Satan's tricks and Satan's followers. Quite the contrary, we are told to be armed and prepared because we are in a spiritual battle.
There is no command from Christ to skip along merrily through life expecting no snares or traps or problems from the enemy - because he wanders about as a roaring lion, seeking any that he can devour or mangle.
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/8/2008 12:32:57 PM
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earthless
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Amen, Jimbo.
Some people think they can never be deceived or fooled. We are to be of keen mind, alert and equipped (1 Peter 3:15).
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/8/2008 12:48:46 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yours
Hi! (I hope I'm in the right forum for this ...) The only issue I have is that the ministry is under a ministry who is under Creflo Dollar, who is under Kenneth Hagin.
To help clarify the conversation some, can you explain exactly how these ministries are related? Is it just that the current pastor was formerly on staff there? If that's so, I'm not sure anyone here really has enough information to make a fast decision here quite yet. (Edit: though you and everyone else are absolutely correct in picking up on the warning signals and wanting to be careful!)
Questions I'd be wanting to ask:
1) What's the nature of the mentoring relationship - is it personal (less of a problem), theological (more of a problem)
2) Why did the current pastor leave? Was it due to doctrinal issues?
3) What's the current pastor's opinions on the C. Dollar/K. Hagin relationship?
4) How much "gravitational pull" exists between this church and the pastor's former church - i.e. overlap between attenders, former church members at the old one that have come over to this one, Sunday School teachers, etc.
5) Are there other former staff members on staff here?
6) What does their statement of faith look like?
7) What are the backgrounds of their elder board / governing body?
8) Are there folks who've recently left this body? Where did those folks tend to end up?
That's just a few ideas for questions. I'm sure I could come up with more.
I've learned the hard way to judge each church on it's merits. Affiliations can certainly tell you a lot, but it's similarly important to give a solid functioning community a fair shake if it seems like the love of Christ is exhibited in abundance.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/8/2008 1:38:07 PM
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selahgirl
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Whoever it was above who said, "what is God telling you to do?" I agree with the sentiment, but i also say use caution and wisdom. God already said what to do in such cases in Scripture... but there are times when he specifically tells someone to do something contrary... like marry a prostitute or join a dance team when you know that dancing is against your nature and you will never dance (another story for another time).
My husband and I were first saved in the church he grew up in, the pastor was a zealous young pastor licensed in the holiness movement... but as we began to ask about wearing jeans to church and other doctrinal issues during our meetings together... he told us the same thing... that he was licensed with that denomination but that there were a number of doctrinal issues that he didn't agree with. We were young and God was doing so much in our hearts personally, we were raised not to question authority or pastors... so we embraced it.
but... I wish I knew then what I know now. Any man that is representing a denomination and is secretly telling members things contrary to KEY FOUNDATIONS of the doctrine he agreed to represent and teach... has serious character issues that WILL COME BACK TO BITE you. No matter how nice they are, no matter how likable and trendy and cutting edge and common sense sounding they are, no matter how much you have in common or are in agreement about. If someone is willing to sin or betray anyone else... they will do it to you down the road. Someone that justifies going back on their word against good people, breaking a trust... is not someone that can be trusted no matter how likable they are. period.
And it does trickle down to those under their teaching. Some will not receive teaching from such a corrupted spirit and will begin to question things... and they will be blackballed and outcast. Other will embrace it blindly as though they are more righteous because they are not questioning the position of the leaders -- they enter a mindset that equates position and title with being equal to God. Such churches in my experience enter into a cult phase and are soon ripped apart -- because God WILL protect his name. Not that he tears it apart, but he lets the choices of such people in the pulpit and in the congregation run it's course and bear the fruit of what they planted. That fruit is chaos and destruction in the lives of everyone that eats of it.
But God will make a way to healing and wholeness for those truly innocent and caught in the mess. And he will make a way back to wholeness for those who sincerely repent.
Anyway... it is the character of a person in the small things that often reveals their character in the big things. Truly Godly ppl will seek Godly character at all times. I would say like this guy all you want, but only put yourself under the leadership of someone who is Truthful in every way before God and Man. I'm nobody to you... but I've seen that seed of rebellion planted in the heart of men with power... and the fruit in time is devastation -- absolute bloody and cruel devastation of everyone involved. Even the guy that trained under that specific pastor... walks with the same character flaws of arrogance and justifying the sin of his leaders above and below him -- excusing his cover ups as being his tremendous and rare GIFT OF MERCY. He murders those he deems as insignificant and feeds the sin of those addicted to selfish ambition. And there are tons of dead and wounded in their wake.
God will clean up the church in these last days.
He's coming for a bride that's without spot or wrinkle. When a leader rebells against the leadership or denomination above him/her... and does it in secret... and justifies it... and leads others to embrace that rebellion... there is a poison in that ministry that will kill you and everything you love. Get out. If you're not in agreement with your denomination or leadership, go to them and reason together. If the differences are deep enough to where you cannot remain under that denomination, you need to step out and not represent that denomination. Otherwise you are lying and walking in a measure of rebellion no matter how you try to paint it.
Find a church that aligns with the core of your faith. A church where you can talk openly with your leadership and things are done openly and not in secret rebellion. It's difficult to lay down a title or to not be in a ministry role after you've held such a spot most of your walk. But you either walk in Godly character all the time, or you're a fraud. Sorry... that's just the way I see it. I don't even have a church home right now, haven't for over three years. After 20 years of teen/children's ministry and working with new converts. Because I resigned and left my last church when the leadership was covering up the sins of one of it's leaders. The pastor of that church is the one that trained under the first guy. He covered the sins of that pastor even after he was cheating on his wife and eventually started having an affair. Then he covered the sins of his leaders under him when he took over my former church.
Only after looking back over so much craziness and trying to glean some kind of lesson, did I grasp the depth of so much. Things I should have seen, things that seemed not a big deal when they were doing them, things I should have called into question or told someone other than their circle of leadership. But I feared of saying too much at the time and falling into gossip. Leadership was huge on teaching against gossip in any form... unless it was to a leader and they deemed it useful to protecting their interests. Broken Trust. Abuse of Power. It all starts by putting yourself under authority that does not fully seek Godly Truth at all times, in the big and the small.
yes. Character counts. The character of the leaders you put yourself under matters.
don't join yourself to such a spirit of rebellion, no matter how subtle it seems. Be discerning. Put character in people as a priority for forming key relationships and ties to people. I attend a church with my teens, they have joined but my husband and I have not because we don't agree with the doctrine of alcohol. We attended the membership classes before allowing our children to join, and we met with the pastor and discussed the issue. We have a great and mutual respect for one another. Alcohol is one of only two area's of their doctrine that conflict with key portions of my faith. But I will still not sign a membership form saying I will adhere to certain doctrines, when I know I will have to violate them. That would be lying. And lying (while to men seems small in some cases) is a very big deal to God. (not that I drink alot. I often go months without any alcohol, and when I do partake it's no more that a glass or two of wine).
But I love this church otherwise. Because it is the ONLY one that I have found that will still allow me to participate in ministry as long as I attend on a regular basis and they are able to be in relationship with me and my family. EVERY other church that we visited required membership or applied great pressure to sign the dotted line whether you were being truthful or not about the covenant you were entering into. Truth didn't seem to matter as much as membership numbers and putting their name on you. I am held accountable in this church, but I am allowed to help with community outreach projects and to assist in the teen group and to pray with people. If Jesus were in the world today... I have no doubt that he would be rejected by 90-95% of the churches in America. I know ppl that are leaving the church in droves... huge flocks that love Christ and are wandering the wilderness. And much of it stems from those seeds of past ministry that discarded Truth and Integrity in the little things as much as the big ones. It's heartbreaking, but God is at work and exciting things are beginning to stir.
sorry to ramble so... I just see such writing on the wall in this situation and I have trouble keeping my big mouth shut in such instances. If you find me annoying... just ignore me and go with God. Much love <3
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/8/2008 2:04:16 PM
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hjemerson
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May be I am not clear Our life walk with Chirist is not alway a clear easy road ( ie as which door to have open for us to )I never wanted it to sound as so. We will and must have out trials and suggles along the way or Why would a person want to depend and relaid on Him,The Holy Sprit etc, I feel Christians must have theis or we would become weak and not depend on Christ to lead us, Is What I was trying to say, If at that He give a choice and that is what we made and then have to live with it or repent and comback to Christ way , NO way is Christ the EASY WAY OUT!!!I do feel if we stay close to God and in His word we will know the tricks of Satan has for us and will be strong to not fall for them! (But Never is not what I am saiding we as a human will fall! even )) That why Christ told of this in the NT. So we will know what to do and what to expect if we fall for one of satans tricks, over him, But again if we do go off track Christ is like the Good Shephard looking and find us to bring us back to the fold! I never wanted it to sound as the Christia life is easy and never have a trouble I just stated we somtimes get what we reap. and some time if not most it is a lesson we needed to learn to become stronger for Him and His work, But I still Stand If you do not agree with the Doc/teaching of the chruch are sitting or Much less working in as a Leader You SHOULD REMOVER you self Or God may remove as you casuse other to fall< I Happy this person has desided to stepdown from teach, the youth and Hope He will take the time to seek the Lords will and FInd the place the Lords can use Him even if it is a Hard chioce to made at the time the Lords will provide for him, If I am not clear on my statement I am a lay person and theis are the though and belives I have . One saved always saves, We have free will, But Christ is and always will be leading me if I let Him and If I fall He will be their to help me !Thu His Blood we are saved and Life will not be a easy road! ( If you think that you have let satan trick u!) Sad to sad a easy road for me would be boring and I never depend, learn very much !(No Calvertlism for me) All just thur what I have learn thur my 45yr of Christian life and walks.and Bible teaching I have sit under, ome Christian College class,But still Life is a road.
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RE: Love the church, BUT... (help!) - 7/9/2008 2:48:29 PM
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slushie
Posts: 2280
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
I agree with Jimbo and what struck me as odd is how can the pastor of that church not be in agreement with WoF teachings and yet be under the two false teachers listed?
Find a doctrinally sound church.
I concur.
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Testify to Love
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