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Can a Believer overcome physical death Now? - 7/8/2008 2:11:26 AM
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LucySmith
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Can a Believer overcome physical death Now?
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I am asking some forums this question regarding
John 11 v 24-25-26
Martha - John 11 v 24
Messiah - John 11 v 25-26
Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
there are the 2 ways exposed.
This is the core message of the bible and why the Messiah came
To reverse the curse.
2 tim.1 v 10 -gives His Believers the real Goodnews, saying
Quote:
2Ti 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
2Ti 1:11
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
ask
was He inside some alien life form or a wonderfull made human body
Was this 'wonderfully'' made human body designed for eternal life - consider Messiah on the Mt of transfiguration Math 17 v 1 and the displaying of Christ IN A HUMAN BODY.
few find eternal life.
what do the rest find then?
few find the way to be as Messiah is
why?
they are brainwashed by religion....who says ''wait till ye die''.
yet
Here and now we are told ''put off courruption'' and ''put off mortal''
We are told of
our transformation,
the new covenant,
the new birth,
renewing of the mind,
dying on the cross daily,
sanctification and righteousness and justification,
Holy as He is Holy,
a quickened Spirit,
heirs and adopted into the Royal house.
etc
yet NO one majors in the ENTRANCE INTO ETERNAL LIFE, not after death but while THEY ARE ALIVE, just as MESSIAH IS ETERNAL LIFE, so are His church. ETERNAL LIFE PEOPLE... for He says
notice please....
''I will Build MY church [ not the corrupt system of corporate religion] but I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, and the gates [openings] of Hell/grave [the law of sin and death] shall not prevail [get the better of] against her''
the religious church builds its people -they die
Yahushua builds HIS CHURCH - DESIGNER MADE- THEY LIVE AS HE LIVES.
John 11 v 25-26.
why?
they are t.r.a.n.s.f.o.r.m.e.d. by the renewing of their minds.
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RE: Can a Believer overcome physical death Now? - 7/8/2008 2:48:11 AM
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mikejonesoftn
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I don't think a believer can overcome physical death but at the same time, I still don't doubt that God could "take" someone as he did Enoch, we might call it death.
However I think those scriptures are still referring to "after life".
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RE: Can a Believer overcome physical death Now? - 7/8/2008 4:17:12 AM
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LucySmith
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikejonesoftn
I don't think a believer can overcome physical death but at the same time, I still don't doubt that God could "take" someone as he did Enoch, we might call it death.
However I think those scriptures are still referring to "after life".
ummm
so Jesus words dont mean much?
or
Jesus didnt really mean believer inherit eternal life [remembering eternal life is not interupted by physcial death]
somethings to ponder
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RE: Can a Believer overcome physical death Now? - 7/8/2008 6:17:06 AM
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mvic
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Hi LucySmith,
I'm not quite clear what you are asking:
Is it - can believers die today then get resurrected again here and now? (Like Lazarus).
or is it - can believers by-pass death altogether and go to Heaven without dying?
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RE: Can a Believer overcome physical death Now? - 7/8/2008 6:29:46 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LucySmith
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikejonesoftn
I don't think a believer can overcome physical death but at the same time, I still don't doubt that God could "take" someone as he did Enoch, we might call it death.
However I think those scriptures are still referring to "after life".
ummm
so Jesus words dont mean much?
or
Jesus didnt really mean believer inherit eternal life [remembering eternal life is not interupted by physcial death]
somethings to ponder
Where does it say that eternal life isn't "interrupted" by physical death?
Indeed, it even says that even if we should die, we will yet live.
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; (John 11:25)
You cannot live even though you die unless you can die. And we can (and do) die, physically...but for a believer that is merely a "change of address" because to die is to be with Christ.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. (Philippians 1:21)
Throughout Jesus' teaching it is the life of the Spirit that matters, not that of the physical body.
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. (Matthew 6:19-21)
Tim
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The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Can a Believer overcome physical death Now? - 7/8/2008 6:32:55 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
remembering eternal life is not interupted by physcial death Where do you get this? Is there any scripture that says this directly? I don't think so.In John's Gospel Yeshua / Jesus defines eternal life:
Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. "
The author of Hebrews reminds us of this promise:
Heb 9:27 Indeed, just as people are appointed to die once and after that to be judged,
and Yeshua explained it this way:
Joh 6:54 The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him to life on the last day.
IOW, "eternal life" and physical life are 2 completely seperate things. You and I are all appointed by God to a physical death at some point. If we have eternal life HE will resurrect us from physical death on the "last day."
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RE: Can a Believer overcome physical death Now? - 7/8/2008 6:38:52 AM
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LucySmith
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Hi LucySmith,
I'm not quite clear what you are asking:
Is it - can believers die today then get resurrected again here and now? (Like Lazarus).
or is it - can believers by-pass death altogether and go to Heaven without dying?
HI 
they can bypass death called the law of sin and death and walk into LIFE IN THE SPIRIT, where there is now NO condemnation. [Roms 8]
or
rather than be under the fallen adamic nature, become ALIVE IN CHRIST.
this is ofcourse THE MEANING OF ETERNAL LIFE, remembering eternal life has no physical death attatched too it.
ALSO
where is 'heaven''?
Yahusha tells His people that heaven is inside you'' as heaven is not a location, but a realm.
hope this heaps to understand now Yahushua's words found in John 11 v 25-26
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RE: A Believer CANNOT overcome physical death now! - 7/8/2008 8:50:09 AM
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JimboFletch
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First, the Bible is clear in the NT that our mortal body WILL die unless the Lord returns first:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
-Hebrews 9:27
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
-1 Corinthians 15:42
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
-1 Corinthians 15:50
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
-1 Corinthians 15:53
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
-1 Corinthians 15:54
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
-Philippians 3:21
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
-Revelation 20:14
Second, every single foolish person ever to teach otherwise has DIED. Not a survivor among the lot of them - None.
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RE: A Believer CANNOT overcome physical death now! - 7/8/2008 9:09:46 AM
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zoebob
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When Jesus says in John 11:25-26 that we will never die He means spiritually. He even says that even though we die (physically) we won't die spiritually
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RE: A Believer CANNOT overcome physical death now! - 7/8/2008 9:11:29 AM
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earthless
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End.of.thread.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: A Believer CANNOT overcome physical death now! - 7/8/2008 9:46:09 AM
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rcjames
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(2Co 5:6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(2Co 5:7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
(2Co 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Paul does seem to be daying here that one is either here in the body or is there with the Lord. It seems like a continual thing to me.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
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The Defilement Of Physical Death! - 7/8/2008 10:56:07 AM
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Spying
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Hi Everyone,
Under the Law, physical death is the ultimate uncleanness or defilement (see Numbers 19), and contact with someone who has physically died is forbidden the High Priest even if that someone should be His Father or Mother:quote:
Leviticus 21:11
11 Neither shall he go in to any dead body, nor defile himself for his father, or for his mother; So, those who are living become defiled through their own physical death, and contact with someone who has physically died has the capacity to further defile the living.
It is interesting that under the Law, any defilement that comes through contact with someone who has physically died, this uncleanness is removed through submitting to the Ritual of the Red Heifer and the process of purification. For purification, the defiled must be sprinkled with a mixture of ashes and living water, and then, at the end of the process of purification (a 7 day ritual), this defiled person must be baptized (see Numbers 19:19).
Paul recognizes in 1 Corinthians 15 that people are indeed baptized for the dead, and Paul uses that recognition as an argument for the resurrection itself. If it is possible to remove any defilement that comes through contact with those that have physically died through baptism (no doubt, Paul was also visualizing here our arising from our watery grave in baptism), then does it not stand to reason that purification from physical death would necessitate the resurrection itself? Absolutely! Life purifies all the effects of death, and, hence, the resurrection purifies all the physically dead from the contamination of physical death.
Now, thus far in reading the comments on this thread, the general consensus seems to be that it is ok for a Believer to defile Himself with physical death, with physical death being defined as the wages or payment for one's sins (see Romans 6:23).
Is there therefore no such thing as purification from physical death for the Believer in this life? Is there no such thing as cleansing from sin and death through the sprinkling and purification worked by Messiah Yahushua? If cleansing is possible through the resurrection of Messiah Yahushua, why then do all Christians continue to grow old, get sick, and defile themselves with physical death? Is this according to the will of YAHWEH ELOHIM?
Sincerely, Spying
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RE: The Defilement Of Physical Death! - 7/8/2008 11:00:35 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Spying
Hi Everyone...
...Is there therefore no such thing as purification from physical death for the Believer in this life?...
No. Read the posts above.
Howdy and have you posted in this thread with another login name?
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The Fulfillment Of The Law? - 7/8/2008 11:32:45 AM
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Spying
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Hi JimboFletch,
Thank you for your reply and question: No, this is now my 2nd post on this thread, but I think I understand why you would ask. LucySmith is indeed a very good friend of mine. 
Do you yourself believe that Messiah Yahushua is the fulfillment of the Law?
Sincerely, Spying
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RE: The Fulfillment Of The Law? - 7/8/2008 11:34:07 AM
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JimboFletch
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Jesus Christ is God the Son.
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RE: The Fulfillment Of The Law? - 7/8/2008 11:40:19 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
Now, thus far in reading the comments on this thread, the general consensus seems to be that it is ok for a Believer to defile Himself with physical death, with physical death being defined as the wages or payment for one's sins (see Romans 6:23).
Here's my "Please put up or shut up" challenge:
Show me a single, solitary believer - especially any who wrote passages you choose to cite from scripture - that has lived 200 to 2000 plus years. If your hypothesis is correct, we should be able to see and meet the eleven original Apostles and others from the time period. But I'll settle for one.
Thanks,
JF
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A Believer CANNOT overcome physical death now! - 7/8/2008 12:17:07 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
Now, thus far in reading the comments on this thread, the general consensus seems to be that it is ok for a Believer to defile Himself with physical death, with physical death being defined as the wages or payment for one's sins (see Romans 6:23).
Here's my "Please put up or shut up" challenge:
Show me a single, solitary believer - especially any who wrote passages you choose to cite from scripture - that has lived 200 to 2000 plus years. If your hypothesis is correct, we should be able to see and meet the eleven original Apostles and others from the time period. But I'll settle for one.
Thanks,
JF
No fancy-smancy theories please, just one, living, breathing example of a healthy 2000 year-old believer.
Thanks,
JF
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RE: A Believer CANNOT overcome physical death now! - 7/8/2008 12:30:11 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Spying
...LucySmith is indeed a very good friend of mine...
So she is... From your linked website, possibly written as a result of early onset of senility:
quote:
Lucy and I are believers in LIFE NOW! This is the true faith! All other faiths are part of the deception.
Formerly, I was a member of the Tzaddikim, and this forum was associated with the Tzaddikim as their forum. For various reasons, I was separated from them, and I am still separated from them. My belief in LIFE NOW developed after I was separated from them.
The Tzaddikim are reluctant to receive LIFE NOW because I have concluded as part of this belief that there now exist on this earth believers who lived at the time of Messiah Yahushua. Lucy and I refer to them as Immortals.
The Tzaddikim believe that the physical is a shadow or picture of the spiritual. Hence, Solomon's Temple was a shadow of the First Spiritual Temple built by Messiah (Matthew 16:18), and since Solomon's Temple was destroyed, the First Spiritual Temple should likewise have suffered destruction.
The Tzaddikim also correctly believe that Messiah made HIMSELF one with HIS Disciples on the night HE was betrayed. Hence, the Disciples, themselves, became a integral part of the Passover Lamb. The Torah requires that whatever remains from the Passover Supper must be burned with fire (Exodus 12:10). We therefore concluded that martyrdom was ordained for the Apostolic Assembly. This is an iron clad conclusion should one view "burning" as a reference to death. The reader here should also consider all the warnings of Paul concerning the shortness of time. The Apostles knew that the Spiritual Temple that they were helping to build would be destroyed!
Accordingly, Hyssop and I had a rather sharp disagreement over the possible existence of Immortals because the Tzaddikim had always taught (including me) that the 1st Spiritual Temple, the Apostolic Assembly, was completely destroyed through martyrdom. This belief in total destruction was further based on these scriptures:
Ephesians 2:19-22
Matthew 24:1-2
John 2:18-22
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I Am Come To Fulfil! - 7/8/2008 1:43:19 PM
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Spying
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Hi JimboFletch,
Thank you for your reply:quote:
Jesus Christ is God the Son. And does this your reply mean that you believe that Messiah Yahushua is indeed the fulfillment of the Law in accordance with Messiah's own mission statement:quote:
Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Sincerely, Spying
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HIS Witnesses! - 7/8/2008 1:53:49 PM
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Spying
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Hi JimboFletch,
And thank you for this challenge:quote:
Here's my "Please put up or shut up" challenge: I see that you are eager to end this discussion with one strong round house punch. I am sorry, but I prefer a little more give and take, a little bit more sprinkling with hyssop, even if I do find myself on the ropes.
Messiah said this about abiding:quote:
John 15:4-5
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: abide ye in my love. (Messiah's love is the fulfillment of the Law!)
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. And then Messiah said this about John:quote:
John 21:22
22 Yahushua saith unto him, If I will that he abide till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Tell me, how do you know for certain that the Apostle John does not yet abide?
Does not the Law require two independent witnesses to establish sin and convict the murderer of his sin (see Numbers 35:30, Deuteronomy 17:6, Deuteronomy 19:15)? And did not Messiah say that HE would send HIS Spirit to convict this world of sin?
How then can you be certain that the Apostle John, who witnessed the murder of Messiah Yahushua, how can you be certain that Messiah has not caused, though HIS Good Spirit, the Apostle John to yet remain as one of HIS Witnesses?
Sincerely, Spying
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RE: HIS Witnesses! - 7/8/2008 2:20:13 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 756
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Spying
Hi JimboFletch,
And thank you for this challenge:quote:
Here's my "Please put up or shut up" challenge: I see that you are eager to end this discussion with one strong round house punch. I am sorry, but I prefer a little more give and take, a little bit more sprinkling with hyssop, even if I do find myself on the ropes.
Messiah said this about abiding:quote:
John 15:4-5
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: abide ye in my love. (Messiah's love is the fulfillment of the Law!)
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. And then Messiah said this about John:quote:
John 21:22
22 Yahushua saith unto him, If I will that he abide till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Tell me, how do you know for certain that the Apostle John does not yet abide?
Does not the Law require two independent witnesses to establish sin and convict the murderer of his sin (see Numbers 35:30, Deuteronomy 17:6, Deuteronomy 19:15)? And did not Messiah say that HE would send HIS Spirit to convict this world of sin?
How then can you be certain that the Apostle John, who witnessed the murder of Messiah Yahushua, how can you be certain that Messiah has not caused, though HIS Good Spirit, the Apostle John to yet remain as one of HIS Witnesses?
Sincerely, Spying
I am afraid I will need to comment on this issue, and what comes next is my own opinion, so please take no offense.
The apostle John has remained as one of the witnesses of Jesus, through his gospel. By no means is he alive to this day. If so, where is he? Wouldn't he still be out there preaching and teaching?Would he not be right now at this moment spreading the good news?
As to overcoming physical death, if you are asking if we can fore go death and live forever in our mortal bodies, the answer is a big and resounding NO. Flesh dies, it is as simple as that. But through our sanctification, and our acceptance of His gift of salvation, our soul will be with Him in heaven forever. The soul is immortal, the body of flesh, not so much. Again, jmho, but I have not seen any scripture that says otherwise.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: HIS Witnesses! - 7/8/2008 2:51:58 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5732
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From: where pigeons are getting their sweaters ready....
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Spying,
Who do you say Jesus is?
And what church/denomination do you attend and what religion do you self-profess to adhere to?
Thanks, I look forward to the answers to the above simple and straight-forward questions.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: A Believer CANNOT overcome physical death now! - 7/8/2008 2:56:07 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Spying
Hi JimboFletch,
And thank you for this challenge:quote:
Here's my "Please put up or shut up" challenge: I see that you are eager to end this discussion with one strong round house punch. I am sorry, but I prefer a little more give and take...
I prefer not to waste time playing games. You cannot produce John because his body has returned to dust. You and Lucy both are showing signs of corruption that is the way of all flesh. I'm not fooled and I'm not buying. You, like L. Ron Hubbard before you, have spent too much time in a fantasy world and cannot separate yourself from your strong delusion. But you and Lucy, despite your denial now, will very soon be forced to face the truth of your physical mortality - as shown in the scripture we've cited.
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RE: A Believer CANNOT overcome physical death now! - 7/8/2008 3:22:53 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Spying
How then can you be certain that the Apostle John, who witnessed the murder of Messiah Yahushua, how can you be certain that Messiah has not caused, though HIS Good Spirit, the Apostle John to yet remain as one of HIS Witnesses?
His tomb is at the Cathedral of Saint John in Ephesus, Turkey. He was about 99 when he died.
BTW:
Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
-John 21:23 (KJV)
Or in the NASB:
Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?"
If the Apostle John didn't claim for himself that he wouldn't physically die, who are we - or you - to do otherwise?
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RE: The Defilement Of Physical Death! - 7/8/2008 3:58:25 PM
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SinnerSaved
Posts: 306
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From: Belfast, N. Ireland
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Howdy and have you posted in this thread with another login name?
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
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ORIGINAL: Spying
...LucySmith is indeed a very good friend of mine...
So she is... From your linked website, possibly written as a result of early onset of senility:
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Lucy and I are believers in LIFE NOW! This is the true faith! All other faiths are part of the deception.
Jimbo, Thank the Lord for the gift of discerning of spirits!
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"No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
John Donne
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