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RE: Iranian Missile Test - Threat or Empty Bluster? - 7/14/2008 12:42:32 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1058
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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I really don't know how you can compare George Bush with whatever his name is in Iran. You are welcome to your opinion. I know by following many of these threads, there are a lot of people who share your views. I'm not one of them, so let's agree to disagree.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
It is neither "peacenik" or "America hating" to point out how unstable Bush has been as President, nor to compare him with wackos like those in charge of Iran. It's uniquely American -
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Iranian Missile Test - Threat or Empty Bluster? - 7/14/2008 1:15:46 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2511
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
It is neither "peacenik" or "America hating" to point out how unstable Bush has been as President, nor to compare him with wackos like those in charge of Iran. It's uniquely American -
"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does NOT mean to stand by the President or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country."
Theodore Roosevelt
The Royalists used to call the Patrick Henry's, Thomas Jefferson's et al un-patriotic as well. Being an American means people have a RIGHT to disagree with each other and the policies of their government and have redress to their grievances as well. It's more socialistic, facist or communist to have everyone "re-educated" along one party's ideology and not tolerate dissent.
But those on the far right like to question people's patriotism when they have a different opinion on government policy but dare not call them un-patriotic when they criticize sitting Presidents on the Democratic ticket. They can give it but can't take it!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Iranian Missile Test - Threat or Empty Bluster? - 7/14/2008 1:45:48 PM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 476
Joined: 4/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
The Royalists used to call the Patrick Henry's, Thomas Jefferson's et al un-patriotic as well. Being an American means people have a RIGHT to disagree with each other and the policies of their government and have redress to their grievances as well. It's more socialistic, facist or communist to have everyone "re-educated" along one party's ideology and not tolerate dissent.
But those on the far right like to question people's patriotism when they have a different opinion on government policy but dare not call them un-patriotic when they criticize sitting Presidents on the Democratic ticket. They can give it but can't take it!
I hope you are not saying that only the far right and Republican Party are guilty of pushing thought control as far as patriotism or any other issue is concerned (race, class envy, the environment, etc). IMO the far left and the Democratic Party are masters of pushing and engineering thought control and indoctrination.
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Iranian Missile Test - Threat or Empty Bluster? - 7/14/2008 5:35:04 PM
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EStan
Posts: 451
Joined: 7/27/2005
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"Who are we to say Iran can't or shouldn't have nuclear weapons?" - Medea Benjamin
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Eternal Father, grant that through the tears of repentance I may see more clearly the brightness and glories of the saving cross.
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RE: Iranian Missile Test - Threat or Empty Bluster? - 7/14/2008 6:14:42 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EStan
"Who are we to say Iran can't or shouldn't have nuclear weapons?" - Medea Benjamin
Medea Benjamin - From Wikipedia -
Benjamin grew up in Long Island, a self-described "nice Jewish girl."
She is a co-founder of the feminist anti-war group Code Pink: Women for Peace, which advocates an end to the Iraq War, the prevention of future wars, and social justice. Benjamin has also been involved with the anti-war organization United for Peace and Justice.
I'm not an editor for Wikipedia, but I would also add "fruitcake"...with nuts.
Iran can have nuclear electric power. Why? Because the Russians sold them that technology and we have no way to stop it. But even the Russians agree with us that Iran should never be allowed nuclear weapons.
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RE: Iranian Missile Test - Threat or Empty Bluster? - 7/14/2008 6:51:22 PM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 476
Joined: 4/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
We are talking about a real-life, in your face, documented case of slamming someones's patriotism (FYI - on this thread) should they dare to disagree,
and your reply is "Democrats do it too" in a vague & all-encompassing statement.
" They can give it but can't take it! " Too True!!!
So start documenting.
Last time I checked we are still living in a free society and this forum is oprn for the free exchange of ideas. Labeling and namecalling is an unfortuneate side affect of living in a free society where political discussions have a tendency to get heated and cause people, on both sides of the political aisle, to make unrealistic accusations, such as questioning one's patriotism.
My accusation that Democrats do it too is far more realistic than your apparent arguement that only the far right are quilty of such actions.
Also, your apparent accusation that the far right does not question it's own is also very unrealistic. We are apparently more able to do it than those in the Democratic Party since the Democratic Party has repeatedly demonstrated that all its members are expected to fall in lock step and toe the party line.
The fact is that if there is any group of people who can not take what they dish out, it is the far left. One just needs to listen to "Air America" or "Progressive Radio" for that fact to be made crystal clear.
But this discussion is getting way off topic.
My apologies.
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Iranian Missile Test - Threat or Empty Bluster? - 7/14/2008 11:38:43 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 283
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
Iran can have nuclear electric power. Why? Because the Russians sold them that technology and we have no way to stop it. But even the Russians agree with us that Iran should never be allowed nuclear weapons.
Ironically, so did Iran, back when it signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty.
I think we need to keep Russia onside on this without forgetting what their real interest is. Russia wants Iran as a client state. They can't do that if Iran has its own nuclear weapons and is independent. But they also may not be able to do that if they prove they can't protect Iran from Western air strikes. Which is why I expect them to continue opposing those.
That said, if there were limited air strikes, they would probably be a gift to Ahmadinejad - since it would guarantee him the continued support of the Muslim religious right in Iran - and possibly also to Russia, since it would probably still seize the opportunity to develop closer relations with Iran and then challenge the West. Remember, Putin's Russia may agree that Iran shouldn't have weapons, but they're not really our allies. They're pursuing power too.
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RE: Iranian Missile Test - Threat or Empty Bluster? - 7/15/2008 12:40:46 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
Iran can have nuclear electric power. Why? Because the Russians sold them that technology and we have no way to stop it. But even the Russians agree with us that Iran should never be allowed nuclear weapons.
Ironically, so did Iran, back when it signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty.
I think we need to keep Russia onside on this without forgetting what their real interest is. Russia wants Iran as a client state. They can't do that if Iran has its own nuclear weapons and is independent. But they also may not be able to do that if they prove they can't protect Iran from Western air strikes. Which is why I expect them to continue opposing those.
That said, if there were limited air strikes, they would probably be a gift to Ahmadinejad - since it would guarantee him the continued support of the Muslim religious right in Iran - and possibly also to Russia, since it would probably still seize the opportunity to develop closer relations with Iran and then challenge the West. Remember, Putin's Russia may agree that Iran shouldn't have weapons, but they're not really our allies. They're pursuing power too.
I have to agree.
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RE: Iranian Missile Test - Threat or Empty Bluster? - 7/17/2008 9:53:46 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2511
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said on Thursday big powers were waiting for specific proposals from Iran in new talks over its disputed nuclear work and Iran's foreign minister said U.S. participation was "positive."
The United States said on Wednesday it was sending an envoy to Geneva to join nuclear talks with Iran for the first time to underline to the Islamic Republic and others that Washington desired a diplomatic solution to the volatile impasse.
"The American participation is positive," Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki told a news conference in Damascus. "We look forward to constructive engagement," he said, referring to a new round of talks in Geneva on Saturday. Source Article
Looks like talking to each other is starting to have a positive effect! Now if the Iranians and US will be reasonable maybe we can get somewhere.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Iranian Missile Test - Threat or Empty Bluster? - 7/17/2008 9:59:34 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2511
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
We are talking about a real-life, in your face, documented case of slamming someones's patriotism (FYI - on this thread) should they dare to disagree,
and your reply is "Democrats do it too" in a vague & all-encompassing statement.
" They can give it but can't take it! " Too True!!!
So start documenting.
Last time I checked we are still living in a free society and this forum is oprn for the free exchange of ideas. Labeling and namecalling is an unfortuneate side affect of living in a free society where political discussions have a tendency to get heated and cause people, on both sides of the political aisle, to make unrealistic accusations, such as questioning one's patriotism.
My accusation that Democrats do it too is far more realistic than your apparent arguement that only the far right are quilty of such actions.
Also, your apparent accusation that the far right does not question it's own is also very unrealistic. We are apparently more able to do it than those in the Democratic Party since the Democratic Party has repeatedly demonstrated that all its members are expected to fall in lock step and toe the party line.
The fact is that if there is any group of people who can not take what they dish out, it is the far left. One just needs to listen to "Air America" or "Progressive Radio" for that fact to be made crystal clear.
But this discussion is getting way off topic.
My apologies.
I agree with you that both sides of the isle use this tactic (I am guilty too!) and the left will use terms like "insensitive, intolerant, facist, totalitarian and Nazi" when referring to the right at times.
People say stay away from talking politics or religion and here we can do both AT THE SAME TIME! 
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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