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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/10/2008 6:40:01 PM
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earthless
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And to simply answer the OP question: Many people today understand the church as a building. This is not the Biblical understanding of the church.
The word church comes from the Greek word "Ecclesia" which is defined as "an assembly,” or “called out ones.” The root meaning of “church” is not that of a building, but of people.
It is ironic that when you ask people what church they attend they usually say Baptist, Methodist, or another denomination. Many times they are referring to a denomination or a building.
Read Romans 16:5: "…also greet the church that is in their house..." Paul refers to the church in their house, not a church building, but a body of believers.
The church is the Body of Christ. Ephesians 1:22-23 says, "And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all."
The Body of Christ is made up of all believers from the time of Pentecost until the Rapture. The Body of Christ is comprised of two aspects:
(1) The universal church is the church that consists of all those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:13 says, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."
We see that anyone who believes is part of the body of Christ. The true church of God is not any particular church building or denomination. The universal church of God is all those who have received salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
(2) The local church is described in Galatians 1:1-2, "Paul, an apostle…and all the brethren who are with me, to the churches of Galatia."
Here we see that in the province of Galatia there were many churches - what we call a local church. A Baptist church, Lutheran church, Catholic church, etc. is not THE church, as in the universal church – but rather is a local church. The universal church is comprised of those who have trusted in Christ for salvation. These members of the universal church should seek fellowship and edification in a local church.
In summary, the church is not a building, or a denomination. According to the Bible, the church is the Body of Christ - all those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 12:13).
There are members of the universal church (the Body of Christ) in local churches.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/10/2008 8:31:55 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
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ORIGINAL: rcjames
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ORIGINAL: theo_book
I take it you will not commit yourself as to which church YOU think is the one true church. Smart move, but not Christianity.
So theo_book; which Church or group do you adhere to or attend?
Thanks
RC
Three times I have posted it. Three times I have made the commitment.
I am a Christian. My allegiance is to Christ. My doctrine is that which is developed within the scriptures of God.
Have to interject here.. but that response did not answer the question asked of you. We're all adults, and we claim to be Christians, so let's not use political ploys.
What church/denomination do you attend/associate with? If none, then say that.. just answer the simple question.
No Christian in scripture ever had to testify as to what he is NOT. I AM a CHRISTIAN. If you think that is true only of a denomination, keep asking "which denomination?" You will get no further response. "I am a Christian" can in no way be considered a "political ploy." It is simply my way of saying "enough with the games. I do not want to play." If in fact your "all adults" I can only say GROW UP and quit the childish games. I AM A CHRISTIAN. Christians do not belong to denominations. Christians are not divided. Christians are true adults in Christ.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/10/2008 8:33:35 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
And to simply answer the OP question: Many people today understand the church as a building. This is not the Biblical understanding of the church.
The word church comes from the Greek word "Ecclesia" which is defined as "an assembly,” or “called out ones.” The root meaning of “church” is not that of a building, but of people.
It is ironic that when you ask people what church they attend they usually say Baptist, Methodist, or another denomination. Many times they are referring to a denomination or a building.
Read Romans 16:5: "…also greet the church that is in their house..." Paul refers to the church in their house, not a church building, but a body of believers.
The church is the Body of Christ. Ephesians 1:22-23 says, "And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all."
The Body of Christ is made up of all believers from the time of Pentecost until the Rapture. The Body of Christ is comprised of two aspects:
(1) The universal church is the church that consists of all those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:13 says, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."
We see that anyone who believes is part of the body of Christ. The true church of God is not any particular church building or denomination. The universal church of God is all those who have received salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
(2) The local church is described in Galatians 1:1-2, "Paul, an apostle…and all the brethren who are with me, to the churches of Galatia."
Here we see that in the province of Galatia there were many churches - what we call a local church. A Baptist church, Lutheran church, Catholic church, etc. is not THE church, as in the universal church – but rather is a local church. The universal church is comprised of those who have trusted in Christ for salvation. These members of the universal church should seek fellowship and edification in a local church.
In summary, the church is not a building, or a denomination. According to the Bible, the church is the Body of Christ - all those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 12:13).
There are members of the universal church (the Body of Christ) in local churches.
AMEN! Well said.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/10/2008 9:19:24 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10624
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
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ORIGINAL: rcjames
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ORIGINAL: theo_book
I take it you will not commit yourself as to which church YOU think is the one true church. Smart move, but not Christianity.
So theo_book; which Church or group do you adhere to or attend?
Thanks
RC
Three times I have posted it. Three times I have made the commitment.
I am a Christian. My allegiance is to Christ. My doctrine is that which is developed within the scriptures of God.
Have to interject here.. but that response did not answer the question asked of you. We're all adults, and we claim to be Christians, so let's not use political ploys.
What church/denomination do you attend/associate with? If none, then say that.. just answer the simple question.
No Christian in scripture ever had to testify as to what he is NOT. I AM a CHRISTIAN. If you think that is true only of a denomination, keep asking "which denomination?" You will get no further response. "I am a Christian" can in no way be considered a "political ploy." It is simply my way of saying "enough with the games. I do not want to play." If in fact your "all adults" I can only say GROW UP and quit the childish games. I AM A CHRISTIAN. Christians do not belong to denominations. Christians are not divided. Christians are true adults in Christ.
I shared in another thread that sometimes what irritates me most in other people is what has taken root most in my own heart. I humbly suggest that you take that to heart.
No where in Scripture do we see Christians who do their own thing, are accountable to no one, fellowship with no one and operate alone. That's because the church is not a person but people and we are the Body - with many parts that should be operating together for the benefit of the body. That's why when people come on to these forums slamming anyone who is a part of a "Body" of believers and claim that they don't need the "Body" because the "Body" is bad and they only follow Christ, big huge red flags starts waving. This idea is arrogant, contrary to God's own Word in Scripture and contrary to Love.
That's why you are getting a simple question about what "Body" you are a part of. If you are not part of the Body because you think the Body is beneath you and bad - just say it. Or if you think that you have no need for the rest of the Body - just say it.
But first, take a few deep breaths and maybe take a step or two down off that horse you have there. 
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/10/2008 9:48:12 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
(theo) No Christian in scripture ever had to testify as to what he is NOT. I AM a CHRISTIAN. If you think that is true only of a denomination, keep asking "which denomination?" You will get no further response. "I am a Christian" can in no way be considered a "political ploy." It is simply my way of saying "enough with the games. I do not want to play." If in fact you're "all adults" I can only say GROW UP and quit the childish games. I AM A CHRISTIAN. Christians do not belong to denominations. Christians are not divided. Christians are true adults in Christ.
(phosadaud) I shared in another thread that sometimes what irritates me most in other people is what has taken root most in my own heart. I humbly suggest that you take that to heart.
(theo) Well I don't know what your reference is to, but I certainly take to heart anything a brother in Christ tells me.
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(phosadaud) No where in Scripture do we see Christians who do their own thing, are accountable to no one, fellowship with no one and operate alone.
(theo) I do not know anyone like that. Do YOU? Christians are to so live their life that it is no longer they that live, but Christ living in them. I am accountable to my king. I fellowship all who will disown the divisions of denominationalism. I operate with all who join me in worship to the Father through the son. What is your problem?
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(phosadaud) That's because the church is not a person but people and we are the Body - with many parts that should be operating together for the benefit of the body.
(theo) "Come ye out from among them and be ye separate" is an admonishion to come out from among WHICH GROUP? BELIEVERS who have stopped behaving like Christians. Denominations, those who teach "it doesn't matter what you believe so long as you don't split the body," have stopped behaving like Christians because Christians would not put up with that nonsense fifteen minutes. Paul opened his letter to the saints at Corinth with the correction about splitting over dogma and doctrines and practices. Denominations THRIVE on their individuality form other splintered groups.
So exactly which body are you referencing? I already operate to the benefit of the body of Christ.
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(phosadaud) That's why when people come on to these forums slamming anyone who is a part of a "Body" of believers and claim that they don't need the "Body" because the "Body" is bad and they only follow Christ, big huge red flags starts waving. This idea is arrogant, contrary to God's own Word in Scripture and contrary to Love.
I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I don't behave in such manner. I have never slammed anyone for being a part of a body of believers. It is schismatic unbelievers I don't need; Those who think it's all right to split the body into thousands of denominations, and thumb their collective
"authoritative" noses at the true head of that same body. Now THAT's arrogance at its worst. And its all about ego and power, pomp and glory.
And I have never said the body is bad. In fact I have repeatedly said the body is the temple of God, and Jesus is its head. What could be bad about that? And it doesn't cause your "big red flag" to wave? What's wrong with THAT picture?
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(phosadaud) That's why you are getting a simple question about what "Body" you are a part of. If you are not part of the Body because you think the Body is beneath you and bad - just say it. Or if you think that you have no need for the rest of the Body - just say it.
(theo) But I have never intimated that I have no need of the body. THAT is an unfair charge, not found in any of my posts. If it is, please point out the post by # for my attention. And I have never said I am not part of the body. "Beneath" me and "bad?" Where are you getting this stuff? NOT from MY posts. As for needing the rest of the body, when Christ adds to his body those that are being saved, I accept them all. It is specifically when those saved ones reject the headship of Christ for the "authority" OF MEN WHO MAKE CHANGES, that I come out from among them and be separate."
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(phosadaud) But first, take a few deep breaths and maybe take a step or two down off that horse you have there.
And do what, climb up there with you on yours?
Tell me, how do you justify denominationalism? Please, think it through before responding. I really am interested in your response.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 7/11/2008 8:22:13 AM >
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/10/2008 10:23:30 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10624
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
(phosadaud) No where in Scripture do we see Christians who do their own thing, are accountable to no one, fellowship with no one and operate alone.
(theo) I do not know anyone like that. Do YOU? Christians are to so live their life that it is no longer they that life, but Christ living in them. I am accountable to my king. I fellowship all who will disown the divisions of denominationalism. I operate with all who join me in worship to the Father through the son. What is your problem?
You talk about not liking the "divisions" of denominationalism and yet what you aren't seeing is that you are the one being divisive. Just because someone goes to a church that is part of a denomination does not mean that that person is divisive. I work for an AG church. We work hand in hand with Baptist churches, Congregational Churches, Nondenom Churches, Nazarene churches, etc. There is no "division". We are all one Body - but we have different styles and maybe some minor differences in beliefs that really aren't all that important.
In fact, what is almost humorous is that those of us challenging you are all from very different denominations and yet you condemn us for our divisiveness. That's kind of backwards don't you think? If you are against division, why are you trying to create it?
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(phosadaud) That's because the church is not a person but people and we are the Body - with many parts that should be operating together for the benefit of the body.
(theo) "Come ye out from among them and be ye separate" is an admonishion to come out from among WHICH GROUP? BELIEVERS who have stopped behaving like Christians. Denominations, those who teach "it doesn't matter what you believe so long as you don't split the body," have stopped behaving like Christians because Christians would not put up with that nonsense fifteen minutes. Paul opened his letter to the saints at Corinth with the correction about splitting over dogma and doctrines and practices. Denominations THRIVE on their individuality form other splintered groups.
So exactly which body are you referencing? I already operate to the benefit of the body of Christ.
Yes, there are some churches and some people in those churches who split over stupid things. And there are some who are quite divisive. However, why are you lumping all denominational churches into this? I don't get it. I have attended any number of churches and with the exception of a few whackos, the only people who get overly concerned about "denomination" are those like you. Seriously.
Are far as the body, I think you answered the question.
You say you "operate to the benefit of the body", but you do not claim to be a part of we the body of believers. Christians are the body.
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(phosadaud) That's why when people come on to these forums slamming anyone who is a part of a "Body" of believers and claim that they don't need the "Body" because the "Body" is bad and they only follow Christ, big huge red flags starts waving. This idea is arrogant, contrary to God's own Word in Scripture and contrary to Love.
I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I don't behave in such manner. I have never slammed anyone for being a part of a body of believers. It is schismatic unbelievers I don't need; Those who think it's all right to split the body into thousands of denominations, and thumb their collective
"authoritative" noses at the true head of that same body. Now THAT's arrogance at its worst. And its all about ego and power, pomp and glory.
And I have never said the body is bad. In fact I have repeatedly said the body is th etemple of God, and Jesus is its head. What could be bad about that? And it doesn't cause your "big red flag" to wave? What's wrong with THAT picture?
Have you read your posts? Seriously? Maybe this isn't what you mean, but you have been slamming anyone who is a part of any denomination simply because they are a part of a body that is accountable to a group of believers within a denomination. And I don't get why you think that all denominations are so evil and thumb their noses at Jesus. There are a lot of great, Bible-believing, Jesus-following denominations out there. There are some that aren't so great, but still have some great churches within them.
The big red flag is your sweeping generalizations and condemnations of basically most of the body because it doesn't operate as you think it should (in a denomination for accountability and to support a common mission). The big red flag is that you won't even say whether you have even one single other believer with which you fellowship with. You claim "Christians" but who do you think is a Christian? Do you think I am a Christian though I am a member of a church that is part of the Assemblies of God denomination? Would you fellowship with me or am I bad?
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(phosadaud) That's why you are getting a simple question about what "Body" you are a part of. If you are not part of the Body because you think the Body is beneath you and bad - just say it. Or if you think that you have no need for the rest of the Body - just say it.
(theo) But I have never intimated that I have no need of the body. THAT is an unfair charge, not found in any of my posts. If it is, please point out the post by # for my attention. And I have never said I am not part of the body. "Beneath" me and "bad?" Where are you getting this stuff? NOT from MY posts. As for needing the rest of the body, when Christ adds to his body those that are being saved, I accept them all. It is specifically when those saved ones reject the headship of Christ for the "authority" OF MEN WHO MAKE CHANGES, that I come out from among them and be separate."
I guess what you are denying is all that I am reading from your posts so let me ask you more specific questions:
Do you believe that someone who is connected with a body of believers in a denomination (any denomination) is rejecting the headship of Christ? If so, how do you reconcile this with the pattern laid out in Scripture. Do you believe that any type of leadership is wrong?
quote:
Tell me, how do you justify denominationalism? Please, think it through before responding. I really am interested in your response.
Denominations are nothing more than organized bodies of believers who tend to have similar priorities and similar beliefs in many of the non-essentials and styles out there. My being a part of one denomination doesn't "divide" me in the least from my brothers and sisters in Christ in another denomination. We are all working for One Lord and we are all worshipping One God. There is a large group of churches across denominations in my area actually do outreaches together, have occasional combined worship together, plan church events so as not to compete but rather complement each other, etc. I guess I don't see this evil division you think is automatic because of "denominations".
What I see is you, splitting yourself off from groups of believers because of how they are organized. Again, if there is division, I'd say look in the mirror.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 7:52:27 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
I take it you will not commit yourself as to which church YOU think is the one true church. Smart move, but not Christianity.
So theo_book; which Church or group do you adhere to or attend?
Thanks
RC
Three times I have posted it. Three times I have made the commitment.
I am a Christian. My allegiance is to Christ. My doctrine is that which is developed within the scriptures of God.
Have to interject here.. but that response did not answer the question asked of you. We're all adults, and we claim to be Christians, so let's not use political ploys.
What church/denomination do you attend/associate with? If none, then say that.. just answer the simple question.
No Christian in scripture ever had to testify as to what he is NOT. I AM a CHRISTIAN. If you think that is true only of a denomination, keep asking "which denomination?" You will get no further response. "I am a Christian" can in no way be considered a "political ploy." It is simply my way of saying "enough with the games. I do not want to play." If in fact your "all adults" I can only say GROW UP and quit the childish games. I AM A CHRISTIAN. Christians do not belong to denominations. Christians are not divided. Christians are true adults in Christ.
So you do not attend any local church?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 8:26:46 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
So you do not attend any local church?
I guess "the church in my house" is about as LOCAL as it gets.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 8:32:56 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
So you do not attend any local church?
I guess "the church in my house" is about as LOCAL as it gets.
That is just your family? or other non-family members? That's a church just like any other brick and mortar.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 9:38:03 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
(phosadaud) No where in Scripture do we see Christians who do their own thing, are accountable to no one, fellowship with no one and operate alone.
(theo) I do not know anyone like that. Do YOU? Christians are to so live their life that it is no longer they that life, but Christ living in them. I am accountable to my king. I fellowship all who will disown the divisions of denominationalism. I operate with all who join me in worship to the Father through the son. What is your problem?
(phosadaud) You talk about not liking the "divisions" of denominationalism and yet what you aren't seeing is that you are the one being divisive. Just because someone goes to a church that is part of a denomination does not mean that that person is divisive.
(theo) Do you understand the meaning and nature of the word "denomination?" It comes form the word "denominator" which is a reference to the parts of a division problem in arithmetic; i.e., enumerator divided by denominator. The denominator is that by which the enumerator is divided. Denominations divide the body of Christ by virtue of their very existence.
When Paul instructed some to "come out from among them and be ye separate" you would correct him and say "Oh, no Paul, that is divisive in the extreme, and would be worse than what we have already, then YOU Paul, would become the divider." I disagree with your analysis. To separate myself from those causing (or ignoring) division, does not make me "divisive," it makes me "separate." The difference is I am not trying to break away with a huge following of believers to sooth my inflated ego. (I do not imply you do this, I simply point out I do not).
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(phosadaud) I work for an AG church. We work hand in hand with Baptist churches, Congregational Churches, Nondenom Churches, Nazarene churches, etc. There is no "division".
(theo) Excuse me! What do you think all those little identifying names are for? They are DESIGNED to help in identifying DIFFERENCES between each other. And naming one's group "nondenominational" is no more help than those of whom Paul said "some say I am of Christ." And the REASON those who said "I am of Christ" were lumped with all the others who divided the body is BECAUSE they did not separate themselves, but thought it was an o.k. standard of Christianity.
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(phosadaud) We are all one Body - but we have different styles and maybe some minor differences in beliefs that really aren't all that important.
(theo) Well they seem important enough they cause division in the body of Christ. If they truly are "not all that important" explain then why they are still divided and are divided precisely along the lines delineated by those "minor DIFFERENCES."
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(phosadaud) In fact, what is almost humorous is that those of us challenging you are all from very different denominations and yet you condemn us for our divisiveness. That's kind of backwards don't you think? If you are against division, why are you trying to create it?
(theo) see previous response. It is not "backward" nor is it promoting division to invite others to come out from divisiveness and join with unity. It is simply playing with words and concepts to think it is.
Do you not see that the developement of a standing army in the U.S. is an improvement over the system as it existed in the revolutionary war? Each locality would send its neighborhood militia to fight in conjunction with other "local militias" only to find some locals had different levels of expertise than others, based on their different training and leadership?
Christianity has been likened to an army, and considered to be "at war" with spiritual enemies. We CANNOT hope to engage the enemy and come away victorious with divided local militias, and leaderships that come from different understandings of what the General (Christ) expects of his warriors. That is precisely what denominationalism is, by virtue of its existence.
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(phosadaud) That's because the church is not a person but people and we are the Body - with many parts that should be operating together for the benefit of the body.
(theo) "Come ye out from among them and be ye separate" is an admonishion to come out from among WHICH GROUP? BELIEVERS who have stopped behaving like Christians. Denominations, those who teach "it doesn't matter what you believe so long as you don't split the body," have stopped behaving like Christians because Christians would not put up with that nonsense fifteen minutes. Paul opened his letter to the saints at Corinth with the correction about splitting over dogma and doctrines and practices. Denominations THRIVE on their individuality form other splintered groups.
So exactly which body are you referencing? I already operate to the benefit of the body of Christ.
(phosadaud) Yes, there are some churches and some people in those churches who split over stupid things. And there are some who are quite divisive. However, why are you lumping all denominational churches into this? I don't get it.
(theo) THAT is nothing but saying "their division is worse than my division." There is to be NO schism in the body, not divided between major and minor considerations. ALL division is wrong. THAT is why I lump ALL dividers together.
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(phosadaud) I have attended any number of churches and with the exception of a few whackos, the only people who get overly concerned about "denomination" are those like you. Seriously.
Maybe there is hope after all. Maybe more will see the terrible damage that is done to the body of Christ through the idea of thinking "just a little sin" is still sin, and "just a little division" is still division, and "just a little schism" is still schism.
Jesus taught that the way to get rid of big sin is to stop it while it is still little sin. (Stop adultry while it is still in the heart, not allow it to go to fruition.)
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(phosadaud) _Are far as the body, I think you answered the question.
You say you "operate to the benefit of the body", but you do not claim to be a part of we the body of believers. Christians are the body.
Actually I do not claim to part of YOU the body of schisms and divisions.
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(phosadaud) That's why when people come on to these forums slamming anyone who is a part of a "Body" of believers and claim that they don't need the "Body" because the "Body" is bad and they only follow Christ, big huge red flags starts waving. This idea is arrogant, contrary to God's own Word in Scripture and contrary to Love.
(theo) I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I don't behave in such manner. I have never slammed anyone for being a part of a body of believers. It is schismatic unbelievers I don't need; Those who think it's all right to split the body into thousands of denominations, and thumb their collective "authoritative" noses at the true head of that same body. Now THAT's arrogance at its worst. And its all about ego and power, pomp and glory.
And I have never said the body is bad. In fact I have repeatedly said the body is the temple of God, and Jesus is its head. What could be bad about that? And it doesn't cause your "big red flag" to wave? What's wrong with THAT picture?
(phosadaud) Have you read your posts? Seriously? Maybe this isn't what you mean, but you have been slamming anyone who is a part of any denomination simply because they are a part of a body that is accountable to a group of believers within a denomination.
You need to rethink that motive labeled "simply because" for it is faulted. "Accountability to a group of believers" has nothing to do with it. I am accountable to a group of believers, but we are not divisive. Division is not allowed. It is not a standard approved by Jesus. And it is not practiced within our group.
It is not accountability to a group of believers, it is accountability to a group that establishes what others are to believe and practice based upon the understanding of those who have attained power over others. THAT is wrong and I will have no part of such a scheme.
People have been killed for disagreeing with the "power" that is prevelant in religion. Eveything from the Inquisition of Catholicism to the Salem witch hunts of denominationalism were based upon power and authority run amock in congregations of submissive and/or superstitious people who could not or would not "Come out from among them and be separate" but became part of the madness. NO ONE has the right to kill others over faith differences.
Jesus himself warned of murder in God's name. "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." [John 16:2-3]
And though they did not know either the Father or the son, that did not stop them from being in agreement as to what is allowable or what is "pure doctrine."
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(phosadaud) And I don't get why you think that all denominations are so evil and thumb their noses at Jesus. There are a lot of great, Bible-believing, Jesus-following denominations out there. There are some that aren't so great, but still have some great churches within them.
(theo) You Cannot have a great bible believing Jesus-following denomination that don't believe the bible or follow Jesus. It is a contradiction in terms. Division is not following Christ. It is dividing Christ. THAT is precisely why "ALL DENOMINATIONS ARE EVIL."
Look, if the devil, in his "red underware, pitchfork and forked tail" wanted to join yur church, you would not even tolerate any discussion, but would immediately condemn him, and any effort to let him inside the doors. Why then do you invite him in, in his more subtle form, i.e., the great divider?
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(phosadaud) The big red flag is your sweeping generalizations and condemnations of basically most of the body because it doesn't operate as you think it should (in a denomination for accountability and to support a common mission). The big red flag is that you won't even say whether you have even one single other believer with which you fellowship with. You claim "Christians" but who do you think is a Christian? Do you think I am a Christian though I am a member of a church that is part of the Assemblies of God denomination? Would you fellowship with me or am I bad?
I would not hesitate to come into your assembly and fellowship with you and invite you to "come out from among them and be ye separate." Then I would go my way with you or without you. I would not stay in the divisiveness with you.
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(phosadaud) That's why you are getting a simple question about what "Body" you are a part of. If you are not part of the Body because you think the Body is beneath you and bad - just say it. Or if you think that you have no need for the rest of the Body - just say it.
(theo) But I have never intimated that I have no need of the body. THAT is an unfair charge, not found in any of my posts. If it is, please point out the post by # for my attention. And I have never said I am not part of the body. "Beneath" me and "bad?" Where are you getting this stuff? NOT from MY posts. As for needing the rest of the body, when Christ adds to his body those that are being saved, I accept them all. It is specifically when those saved ones reject the headship of Christ for the "authority" OF MEN WHO MAKE CHANGES, that I come out from among them and be separate."
(phosadaud) I guess what you are denying is all that I am reading from your posts so let me ask you more specific questions:
Do you believe that someone who is connected with a body of believers in a denomination (any denomination) is rejecting the headship of Christ? If so, how do you reconcile this with the pattern laid out in Scripture. Do you believe that any type of leadership is wrong?
Look at the examples Paul said were wrong because of division and schism in the body. Would I say Paul is wrong? No! Would I say Appollos is wrong? No! Would I say Cephas is wrong? No! Would I say Jesus is wrong? Emphatically NO! Yet it was Paul who said "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" [I Cor 1:10-13]
If Paul, and Cephas, Apollos, and Christ canot be condemned, yet those making divisions in their name ARE condemned, how can you ask me if the leadership of denominationalism is wrong? EVEN those who said "I am of Christ" were condemned by Paul for staying within the body of schismatics. And that is precisely what you are asking me to approve.
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(theo)Tell me, how do you justify denominationalism? Please, think it through before responding. I really am interested in your response.
(phosadaud) Denominations are nothing more than organized bodies of believers who tend to have similar priorities and similar beliefs in many of the non-essentials and styles out there. My being a part of one denomination doesn't "divide" me in the least from my brothers and sisters in Christ in another denomination. We are all working for One Lord and we are all worshipping One God. There is a large group of churches across denominations in my area actually do outreaches together, have occasional combined worship together, plan church events so as not to compete but rather complement each other, etc. I guess I don't see this evil division you think is automatic because of "denominations".
(theo) You may perceive them as non-essential beliefs and styles, but tell me which is essential in scripture; "That ye all speak the same thing" or "that ye agree in all but the non-essentials?" Which is scriptural? In fact, which is actually believable? If those non-essentials are not essential, why cling to them, why use them to identify the body separately from other differently identified bodies that claim to be the "same body having different non-essentials?"
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(phosadaud) What I see is you, splitting yourself off from groups of believers because of how they are organized. Again, if there is division, I'd say look in the mirror.
(theo) According to scripture, separation from schism is not schism. Separation from sin is not sin. Separation from power hungry hierarchies is not power hungry hierarchiness. YOU do the math. No matter how you add it up, or what standards you use, it is not the same. If you are divided, and I separate myself from that division, I am not divided and condemned, I am separated and redeemed.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 7/11/2008 9:52:36 AM >
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 9:55:34 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
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ORIGINAL: theo_book
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ORIGINAL: earthless
So you do not attend any local church?
I guess "the church in my house" is about as LOCAL as it gets.
That is just your family? or other non-family members? That's a church just like any other brick and mortar.
Family members of Christ are called Christians; non-family members are called "unbelievers."
We accept all family members who do not bring division and schism or try to divide by defining differences.
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 10:17:26 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
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ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
So you do not attend any local church?
I guess "the church in my house" is about as LOCAL as it gets.
That is just your family? or other non-family members? That's a church just like any other brick and mortar.
Family members of Christ are called Christians; non-family members are called "unbelievers."
We accept all family members who do not bring division and schism or try to divide by defining differences.
So you're a local church body just like any other - just like the brick and mortar churches I go to. And you know what I meant by 'family'.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 11:11:28 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
(earthless) So you do not attend any local church?
(theo) I guess "the church in my house" is about as LOCAL as it gets.
(earthless) That is just your family? or other non-family members? That's a church just like any other brick and mortar.
(theo) Family members of Christ are called Christians; non-family members are called "unbelievers."
We accept all family members who do not bring division and schism or try to divide by defining differences.
(earthless) So you're a local church body just like any other - just like the brick and mortar churches I go to. And you know what I meant by 'family'.
(theo) And now you know what I mean by "family."
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 11:13:34 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
(theo) And now you know what I mean by "family."
Yes, but my original question was regarding the non 'Christianese' verbiage.
The point is that your house church is just like the church I attend.. just like the church a Pentecostal attends.. just like the church a Lutheran attends, etc..
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 11:28:19 AM
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Qtman
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I have been reading this thread with nothing less than amused fascination. First of all to the OP. There is a vast difference between The Church and a church. The Church is comprised of all who have been saved and believe in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. A church is nothing more than a brick and mortar, wood and plaster, whatever material used, that is a meeting place for The Church to congregate or assemble.
For the rest of this thread……….
I have historically rocked back and forth from Methodist churches to Southern Baptist churches. I do not particularly care what name is on the door. If it is a Bible believing/teaching church it is o.k. with me. Having traveled with a Southern Gospel Quartet for years I have sung in just about every protestant denomination there is and as Phosy so well stated there is not that much difference in them. The core beliefs of each of the denominations is the same.
Theo you seem to like, among other things, to use the term body of Christ and that body being divided. In scripture Body was used in a metaphorical way. You say the various denominations divide the Body. Take a look at your own body. You will find it is divided by parts or functions and all of these parts and functions combine for a common goal. The keeping of your body up and moving. The same holds true of the Body of Christ. There are various parts of that body all combine to accomplish a common goal. That goal is the Glory of God and the spreading of the Gospel.
Also you seem to like to quote Paul. If you are going to continue to do this you need to first spend a little more time studying the scripture and understanding what they mean. You also need to quote scripture in context and not take a couple of lines out of context to try to prove your point. For instance you are apparently fond of using a couple of lines from Paul’s letter to the Church at Corinth. “Come out from among them, and be ye separate” In this verse Paul is not speaking to the church about the church. Read the entire scripture in context. It says…..
(16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
As you can see people were not being told to separate themselves from the organized church but from the paganistic practices of the world around them.
Do we have to attend church. I do not believe it is necessary. Matthew 18:20 clearly states “Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” Therefore if two or more people are gathered in the name of Jesus that is a church.
Everyone is in some denomination even you. I am reminded of a college professor that used to say not making a decision is a decision. By not associating with a denomination your are by the very act Non-Denominational which is in and of itself a denomination. You can’t avoid that.
Also how are you going to explain Hebrews 10:24/25….
(24) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
(25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
I know I have just wasted a lot of time typing this but it has been said. Receiving it is not up to me.
_____________________________
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 3:06:54 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
(theo) And now you know what I mean by "family."
Yes, but my original question was regarding the non 'Christianese' verbiage.
I do not recall seeing "non -Christianese verbiage" anywhere in the post.
quote:
The point is that your house church is just like the church I attend.. just like the church a Pentecostal attends.. just like the church a Lutheran attends, etc..
Then why do all those "churches just like" differ so much? Why divide over names?
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 3:14:13 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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ORIGINAL: theo_book
Then why do all those "churches just like" differ so much? Why divide over names?
Because humans are fickle creatures - emotions ebb and flow.
That is why what matters are the core essentials of Christianity. We can disagree on secondary issues (where Christian denominations come from) but we are not divided by them in the sense where we are not all brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ.
In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity...
What your fellowship of believers do is church - just like I do on Sunday mornings - just like someone else does on Friday night, Wednesday night, etc..
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Where is the Church. The building or the person? - 7/11/2008 3:37:15 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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(Qtman) I have been reading this thread with nothing less than amused fascination. First of all to the OP. There is a vast difference between The Church and a church. The Church is comprised of all who have been saved and believe in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. A church is nothing more than a brick and mortar, wood and plaster, whatever material used, that is a meeting place for The Church to congregate or assemble.
For the rest of this thread……….
I have historically rocked back and forth from Methodist churches to Southern Baptist churches. I do not particularly care what name is on the door. If it is a Bible believing/teaching church it is o.k. with me. Having traveled with a Southern Gospel Quartet for years I have sung in just about every protestant denomination there is and as Phosy so well stated there is not that much difference in them. The core beliefs of each of the denominations is the same.
(theo) neither being ignorant of sin, nor ignoring it, makes it any less sin.
Division in the body of Christ is wrong.
quote:
(Qtman) Theo you seem to like, among other things, to use the term body of Christ and that body being divided. In scripture Body was used in a metaphorical way. You say the various denominations divide the Body. Take a look at your own body. You will find it is divided by parts or functions and all of these parts and functions combine for a common goal. The keeping of your body up and moving. The same holds true of the Body of Christ. There are various parts of that body all combine to accomplish a common goal. That goal is the Glory of God and the spreading of the Gospel.
(theo) Then why not glorify God instead of names made up by men? Why not spread the gospel of Christ instead of doctrines and traditions of men? Why not try to relate all the parts of the body, to the head of the body, instead of each body part having its own head?
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(Qtman) Also you seem to like to quote Paul. If you are going to continue to do this you need to first spend a little more time studying the scripture and understanding what they mean.
I think you need to study a little more about how scripture is applied separate and apart from its context. Look for example at Mat 27:9-10 and tell me you really believe the "context" is a "quote" from Jeremiah the prophet.
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(Qtman) You also need to quote scripture in context and not take a couple of lines out of context to try to prove your point. For instance you are apparently fond of using a couple of lines from Paul’s letter to the Church at Corinth. “Come out from among them, and be ye separate” In this verse Paul is not speaking to the church about the church. Read the entire scripture in context. It says…..
(16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
As you can see people were not being told to separate themselves from the organized church but from the paganistic practices of the world around them.
I consider division and denominationalism TO BE a paganistic practice. It certainly is not found either within the context or the meaning of Christianity according to the scripture.
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(Qtman) Do we have to attend church. I do not believe it is necessary. Matthew 18:20 clearly states “Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” Therefore if two or more people are gathered in the name of Jesus that is a church.
(theo) Isn't that a contradiction? I consider two or three gathered in Jesus' name to be the church. And if we gather, we certainly are
"attending church." Or do you mean to say you don't think we have to attend "organized religion churches?" I don't think there is any such differentiation designated in scripture.
Whenever and wherever Christians gather to worship and serve, God is glorified. What else matters? Numbers? Population? "popularity" of some speaker?
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(Qtman) Everyone is in some denomination even you. I am reminded of a college professor that used to say not making a decision is a decision. By not associating with a denomination your are by the very act Non-Denominational which is in and of itself a denomination. You can’t avoid that.
(theo) Only if you consider wearing the name of Christ to be a denomination. Denominations are KNOWN for their divisive defining differences. I have none. I do not divide, I plead for unity. It is precisely those who call themselves after names of men and organizatoins other than the name of Christ, that divide and split the body of Christ.
{quote](Qtman) Also how are you going to explain Hebrews 10:24/25….
(24) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
(25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
(theo) What about Heb 10:24-25 NEEDS explained? We gather, consider, provoke unto love and good works. We exhort, encourage, and teach one another. What is your question?
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(Qtman) I know I have just wasted a lot of time typing this but it has been said. Receiving it is not up to me.
Perhaps revising it to adjust to reality is in order. I know I could not "receive" it as it is written. It is too full of errors and assumptions, and a certain ammount of self justification.
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