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[Poll]
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The Lake of Fire
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| The man or woman burns in a real, literal, physical fire for eternity. |
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| The fire is symbolic. |
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| The man or woman is destroyed by the fire. |
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Total Votes : 25
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(last vote on : 9/15/2008 6:51:49 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/22/2008 4:32:18 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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Often, to certain people, when a man doesn't subscribe to that certain person's beliefs, that certain person will start accusing that man of having hardened his heart and being prideful. The Lord has given me, through Scripture, the means to decide who is teaching me truth and who isn't. I use the Lord's methods to figure out which teachings are obviously false. I don't believe I have to subscribe to the majority's viewpoint on everything or else I'm being a prideful hard-heart.
Am I wrong in this?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/22/2008 5:01:14 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The problem is that destruction DOES last for eternity. The destruction will never end. There will never be a point where the destruction wears off. It is a single punishment which lasts for eternity. Yes, I think this is precisely how we are to also understand "the worm dieth not". It is metaphorical language to indicate that the "dead" will forever be dead, iow, they will never come to life again.
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I don't know what Jehovah's Witnesses teach. I don't care to know.
I realize that... again, until people on this thread told me, I never knew what they thought. I never cared.
Are you arguing that if they think it's real it must not be?
It's ironic that because JW's hold the annihilation view it must be wrong. By the same tokin, RC holds to the Trinity - must they be wrong? Nope, even false religions get things right occassionally. At best, it's a very weak argument.
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When did I dismiss any point in that story[Lazarus and the Rich Man]? I said that it is clearly before the second death. Am I wrong here? As for it being a parable, it's spoken just like a parable. It teaches a specific lesson like other parables.
Yes, most Christians realize this is a parable. Within the parable itself it becomes plain that it is.
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When am I "telling folk they can party-hearty on earth"? My looking at Scripture without preconception is being confused with telling people to sin? Where did that even come from? This is perhaps an integral part of the reasoning why many insist on eternal conscious torment. After all, as Christians we can't live as we did before, we can't "party-hearty". Look at all we must give-up, it's not fair that those who get to "eat drink and be merry" are only destroyed and not eternally tormented.
We see in Jude 7 that Sodom suffers the vengeance of "eternal fire". Yet, we know there is no literal eternal fire burning over there. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
And then Luke 17:29 tells us they were destroyed "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all."
In any event, McFatty, good posts with lots of food for thought. I agree the issue isn't as cut and dried as some believe it to be simply because it has "always" been taught and those wicked people deserve it. Not to mention some of those "wicked" people are very decent, moral and upstanding people - they're all not serial killers. Some are even our parents, our children, our friends....
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/22/2008 5:07:26 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3889
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Often, to certain people, when a man doesn't subscribe to that certain person's beliefs, that certain person will start accusing that man of having hardened his heart and being prideful. The Lord has given me, through Scripture, the means to decide who is teaching me truth and who isn't. I use the Lord's methods to figure out which teachings are obviously false. I don't believe I have to subscribe to the majority's viewpoint on everything or else I'm being a prideful hard-heart.
Am I wrong in this?
LOL...I wouldn't worry about it - in the least. I've seen some very odd beliefs by those who would attack what they consider unorthodox or heretical.
God has given us much to ponder in Scripture concerning the eternal destiny of the unsaved....no reason to be afraid to do precisely that.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/22/2008 6:09:14 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
Joined: 3/10/2006
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As far as if those that die without Christ will be annihilated:
Revelation 14:9-11
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
First of all, how can there be smoke from the unbeliever going up forever and ever if the unbeliever is non-existent? Also, how could the unbeliever be in torment forever and ever if he ceases to exist? How can an unbeliever have no rest day and night if he ceases to exist? If he is non-existent, he cannot experience restlessness or anything else at all.
Mark 9:43-48
43"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
44[Where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
45"If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
46[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
47"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
48where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
Why emphasize the fact that this fire is unquenchable if the unbeliever will simply be annihilated by it?
Matthew 25:41, 46
41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
How can a person experience punishment if the person does not exist? I have seen the response to this as being that the eternal punishment refers to the fact that the unbeliever is annihilated (he is no more forever). Again, to this I ask how is this eternal punishment? Eternal punishment implies ongoing punishment. If the person is annihilated, then the punishment act is over. Also, “eternal punishment” coupled with “smoke of their torment [going] up forever and ever” (Revelation 14:11) seems to be a very good description for unending suffering. A person cannot suffer if he does not exist.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
If these people were just annihilated, then why mention that they will be away from the Lord’s presence? It goes without saying that if a person no longer exists, he will not be in the Lord’s or anyone else’s presence. This seems to be better understood as these people existing forever away from the Lord's presence.
Also, destruction does not have to mean annihilation. If my vehicle is smashed to pieces beyond repair, I can rightly refer to it as being destroyed, but it still exists...just in a state of ruin. I do not have time to look this up right now, but I have seen where the word used here for destruction is used in other places in the Bible and the meaning is not one of annihilation in those places.
All of these verses taken together seem to give a very good message that everlasting conscious torment awaits those who die without Christ.
_____________________________
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See for Yourself
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/22/2008 7:05:08 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
As far as if those that die without Christ will be annihilated:
Revelation 14:9-11
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
First of all, how can there be smoke from the unbeliever going up forever and ever if the unbeliever is non-existent? Also, how could the unbeliever be in torment forever and ever if he ceases to exist? How can an unbeliever have no rest day and night if he ceases to exist? If he is non-existent, he cannot experience restlessness or anything else at all.
Mark 9:43-48
43"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
44[Where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
45"If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
46[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
47"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
48where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
Why emphasize the fact that this fire is unquenchable if the unbeliever will simply be annihilated by it?
Matthew 25:41, 46
41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
How can a person experience punishment if the person does not exist? I have seen the response to this as being that the eternal punishment refers to the fact that the unbeliever is annihilated (he is no more forever). Again, to this I ask how is this eternal punishment? Eternal punishment implies ongoing punishment. If the person is annihilated, then the punishment act is over. Also, “eternal punishment” coupled with “smoke of their torment [going] up forever and ever” (Revelation 14:11) seems to be a very good description for unending suffering. A person cannot suffer if he does not exist.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
If these people were just annihilated, then why mention that they will be away from the Lord’s presence? It goes without saying that if a person no longer exists, he will not be in the Lord’s or anyone else’s presence. This seems to be better understood as these people existing forever away from the Lord's presence.
Also, destruction does not have to mean annihilation. If my vehicle is smashed to pieces beyond repair, I can rightly refer to it as being destroyed, but it still exists...just in a state of ruin. I do not have time to look this up right now, but I have seen where the word used here for destruction is used in other places in the Bible and the meaning is not one of annihilation in those places.
All of these verses taken together seem to give a very good message that everlasting conscious torment awaits those who die without Christ.
Hello, CCCdnt,
Revelation 14 is pretty clearly taking place before the judgment, and since we know that Hades will be cast into the lake of fire, there has to be another explanation. Also, is there any indication that what is being described in these verses is a torment to mankind beyond this life? I don't see that as being necessary, or even probable, given that this is a description of the bowl judgments to take place in chapter sixteen. What happens forever and ever in this passage? The smoke rises forever and ever. Note that the "smoke rises forever and ever" is actually a quote from Isaiah (34:8-10), talking about the destruction of Edom compared with that of Sodom and Gomorrah from Jeremiah 49. These places were all said to not be quenched both night and day and the smoke rising forever. Guess what, you can see the ruins of those places now, and it is devoid of smoke and fire. Perhaps "smoke" simply means "aftermath" in this case. I don't know. What you should also consider is that the people said to endure this particular torment in Revelation 14 are a specific class of people, rather than ALL non-believers. They're simply the people who receive the mark of the beast. Changing this verse so it applies to everyone wouldn't be true to the Bible, I don't think.
Mark 9:43-48 is a very good passage, one of my favorites. If you weren't aware, it is quoting a passage from Isaiah (chapter 66). Just like in Isaiah, the worms and fire in Mark feed on dead bodies (not immortal souls). That's what worms do. That is one attribute of fire. In fact, neither these verses nor the ones they quote refer to the immortal soul or even physical torment.
The other problem with the word "hell" in these passages is that they're translated from the Greek "gehinnom" or "gehenna" which means the Valley of Hinnom. Look it up. You can find some wonderful pictures of this valley. Look in books. Look in encyclopedias. Research "gehenna" if you don't believe that it's the Valley of Hinnom. The valley was once a garbage dump for the city of Jerusalem, with many fires for the incineration of trash. Whoever translated it "hell" either was misled, corrupt, or thought "hell" had different implications at the time of translation than it does now.
In Matthew 25, the eternal fire was not prepared for wicked men. The Bible clearly states for whom the fire was prepared. It also doesn't say "everlasting torment" but "everlasting punishment". If other scriptures would clearly state that there was such a thing as "eternal torment" for wicked men, this might be used to say the same. However, if there were verses talking about "eternal death", this could mean that too. What do the scriptures say? Death, perishing, destruction.
In 2 Thessalonians, you asked why "away from the presence of the Lord" is in there. I don't know everything about God, but I'd imagine because destruction will take place in the presence of the beast, the devil, and the false prophet. The lake of fire is the second death. The last thing a wicked man gets to see is not God, but horrors. That's my take on it, but then again, I don't know the reason for every single word in the Bible.
You say "destruction" does not have to mean annihilation. You say the word for "destruction" sometimes means something else. Does it ever mean "conscious torment"? If you destroy a car, the matter is still there, but it is no longer a car. That's what destruction implies when the word is used. When you destroy a car, you don't cause it pain, and the process isn't ongoing. It's a single act which lasts forever, because if a car is destroyed, it is by definition not recoverable.
The reason these verses don't indicate eternal conscious torment for the wicked is that the Revelation one isn't even talking about the afterlife or all wicked men, the Mark one quotes the Old Testament's destruction of cities, the long term effects of which we can actually observe now. The Matthew one is vague when taken on its own, but confirms exactly for whom eternal fire was prepared (not wicked men), and the Thessalonians one simply restates that the wicked will be destroyed.
In fact, if you are right and all these verse do point to eternal conscious torment, then the Bible is contradictory, because in Revelation 14, the torment takes place in the presence of the Lamb, but in 2 Thessalonians, it's away from the presence of the Lord.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/22/2008 9:23:21 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
As far as if those that die without Christ will be annihilated:
Forget it, CCCdnt...you make too much sense and appear to know your Bible too well. We don't like your kind coming around here and making trouble! 
It's much more comforting to believe, if you're good, you go to heaven and, if you're bad, you just cease to exist at some point. If I was an unbeliever, I wouldn't see a reason to accept the gift of salvation if I knew the very worst that could happen to me is that I'd burn up one day and just no longer exist. At least the torment would be over quickly!
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 1:28:24 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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I didn't quite say that, Jimbo. I was simply saying how I use the Lord's methods. I didn't say I was applying them to a particular person. If that was offensive to you, I apologize.
But imagine how it sounds to hear that since I disagree with you I'm obviously proud, avoiding rebuke, hard-hearted, and a heretic.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 1:31:01 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
As far as if those that die without Christ will be annihilated:
Forget it, CCCdnt...you make too much sense and appear to know your Bible too well. We don't like your kind coming around here and making trouble!
It's much more comforting to believe, if you're good, you go to heaven and, if you're bad, you just cease to exist at some point. If I was an unbeliever, I wouldn't see a reason to accept the gift of salvation if I knew the very worst that could happen to me is that I'd burn up one day and just no longer exist. At least the torment would be over quickly!
That argument doesn't change Scripture, Peter, and I don't think utter destruction after having been sentenced by a wrathful God is the walk in the park you're pretending it will be. Besides, the Lord hasn't given me a spirit of fear, so I don't like using fear when talking to others about Jesus. Fear isn't what my relationship with God is all about.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 1:52:26 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
That argument doesn't change Scripture, Peter, and I don't think utter destruction after having been sentenced by a wrathful God is the walk in the park you're pretending it will be. Besides, the Lord hasn't given me a spirit of fear, so I don't like using fear when talking to others about Jesus. Fear isn't what my relationship with God is all about.
I do fear God...I recognize Who He is and who i am. And Jesus used some pretty "fearful" language to those who refused to repent and acknowledge Him as the Truth.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 2:33:37 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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The Bible says that there is no fear in love. If that's how you choose to talk with people, that's fine, but I don't want to cause fear in the people I love. Perfect love casts out fear.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 2:41:45 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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Yes but we're supposed to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling. I don't think we ought to cause fear in others.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 2:45:56 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 359
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Hello, CCCdnt,
Revelation 14 is pretty clearly taking place before the judgment, and since we know that Hades will be cast into the lake of fire, there has to be another explanation. Also, is there any indication that what is being described in these verses is a torment to mankind beyond this life? I don't see that as being necessary, or even probable, given that this is a description of the bowl judgments to take place in chapter sixteen. What happens forever and ever in this passage? The smoke rises forever and ever. Note that the "smoke rises forever and ever" is actually a quote from Isaiah (34:8-10), talking about the destruction of Edom compared with that of Sodom and Gomorrah from Jeremiah 49. These places were all said to not be quenched both night and day and the smoke rising forever. Guess what, you can see the ruins of those places now, and it is devoid of smoke and fire. Perhaps "smoke" simply means "aftermath" in this case. I don't know. What you should also consider is that the people said to endure this particular torment in Revelation 14 are a specific class of people, rather than ALL non-believers. They're simply the people who receive the mark of the beast. Changing this verse so it applies to everyone wouldn't be true to the Bible, I don't think.
Mark 9:43-48 is a very good passage, one of my favorites. If you weren't aware, it is quoting a passage from Isaiah (chapter 66). Just like in Isaiah, the worms and fire in Mark feed on dead bodies (not immortal souls). That's what worms do. That is one attribute of fire. In fact, neither these verses nor the ones they quote refer to the immortal soul or even physical torment.
The other problem with the word "hell" in these passages is that they're translated from the Greek "gehinnom" or "gehenna" which means the Valley of Hinnom. Look it up. You can find some wonderful pictures of this valley. Look in books. Look in encyclopedias. Research "gehenna" if you don't believe that it's the Valley of Hinnom. The valley was once a garbage dump for the city of Jerusalem, with many fires for the incineration of trash. Whoever translated it "hell" either was misled, corrupt, or thought "hell" had different implications at the time of translation than it does now.
In Matthew 25, the eternal fire was not prepared for wicked men. The Bible clearly states for whom the fire was prepared. It also doesn't say "everlasting torment" but "everlasting punishment". If other scriptures would clearly state that there was such a thing as "eternal torment" for wicked men, this might be used to say the same. However, if there were verses talking about "eternal death", this could mean that too. What do the scriptures say? Death, perishing, destruction.
In 2 Thessalonians, you asked why "away from the presence of the Lord" is in there. I don't know everything about God, but I'd imagine because destruction will take place in the presence of the beast, the devil, and the false prophet. The lake of fire is the second death. The last thing a wicked man gets to see is not God, but horrors. That's my take on it, but then again, I don't know the reason for every single word in the Bible.
You say "destruction" does not have to mean annihilation. You say the word for "destruction" sometimes means something else. Does it ever mean "conscious torment"? If you destroy a car, the matter is still there, but it is no longer a car. That's what destruction implies when the word is used. When you destroy a car, you don't cause it pain, and the process isn't ongoing. It's a single act which lasts forever, because if a car is destroyed, it is by definition not recoverable.
The reason these verses don't indicate eternal conscious torment for the wicked is that the Revelation one isn't even talking about the afterlife or all wicked men, the Mark one quotes the Old Testament's destruction of cities, the long term effects of which we can actually observe now. The Matthew one is vague when taken on its own, but confirms exactly for whom eternal fire was prepared (not wicked men), and the Thessalonians one simply restates that the wicked will be destroyed.
In fact, if you are right and all these verse do point to eternal conscious torment, then the Bible is contradictory, because in Revelation 14, the torment takes place in the presence of the Lamb, but in 2 Thessalonians, it's away from the presence of the Lord.
I have actually researched this quite well in the past and have read both views and their reasons for believing as they do along with the Scripture they use to support their view. Your arguments are nothing new. I have seen your arguments before and others presented for annihilation and have seen rebuttals to all of them. I honestly do not see how one can get the teaching of annihilation out of the Bible if all the teachings on this in the Bible are taken as a whole. I really have no desire to continue to debate this. I doubt there is anything I could say that would change your mind as you have probably seen many arguments presented for conscious eternal torment and still believe as you do.
I will say that what you present is very dangerous. There are many unbelievers that enjoy their sinful lifestyle so much that they would probably choose to keep living that lifestyle rather than turn to Christ if they believed that the worst that waited for them were non-existence. Sure, Christians can tell them about the love of Christ and how wonderful it will be to spend eternity with Him, but some of the unbelievers could still think that since they will just cease to exist, that then they will not know that they are missing out on anything. I do not say all of this as an argument against annihilation, since if the Bible really did teach that doctrine, then what I just said would not matter. I say this because, as I said before, I believe that God's Word does not teach this doctrine.
Also, I am rather suprised that this thread has gone on as long as it has without a moderator saying anything. As I recall, I remember seeing other threads where annihilation was defended and I thought the moderators cited that it was against the TOS to make such an argument.
_____________________________
http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 2:47:32 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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I'm not sure I fully agree. I believe once we are sure of our salvation, we have no need for fear any longer (once the salvation is worked out).
I believe that the Holy Spirit can make me perfect, and that gives me hope in light of this verse.
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." - 1 John 4:18
I have no fear of punishment (whatever we believe that punishment to be), and according to this verse, without punishment, there is no need for fear.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 2:51:00 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I honestly do not see how one can get the teaching of annihilation out of the Bible if all the teachings on this in the Bible are taken as a whole. I really have no desire to continue to debate this. I doubt there is anything I could say that would change your mind as you have probably seen many arguments presented for conscious eternal torment and still believe as you do.
Amen!
quote:
I will say that what you present is very dangerous. There are many unbelievers that enjoy their sinful lifestyle so much that they would probably choose to keep living that lifestyle rather than turn to Christ if they believed that the worst that waited for them were non-existence. Sure, Christians can tell them about the love of Christ and how wonderful it will be to spend eternity with Him, but some of the unbelievers could still think that since they will just cease to exist, that then they will not know that they are missing out on anything.
Amen, again!
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 2:53:43 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Hello, CCCdnt,
Revelation 14 is pretty clearly taking place before the judgment, and since we know that Hades will be cast into the lake of fire, there has to be another explanation. Also, is there any indication that what is being described in these verses is a torment to mankind beyond this life? I don't see that as being necessary, or even probable, given that this is a description of the bowl judgments to take place in chapter sixteen. What happens forever and ever in this passage? The smoke rises forever and ever. Note that the "smoke rises forever and ever" is actually a quote from Isaiah (34:8-10), talking about the destruction of Edom compared with that of Sodom and Gomorrah from Jeremiah 49. These places were all said to not be quenched both night and day and the smoke rising forever. Guess what, you can see the ruins of those places now, and it is devoid of smoke and fire. Perhaps "smoke" simply means "aftermath" in this case. I don't know. What you should also consider is that the people said to endure this particular torment in Revelation 14 are a specific class of people, rather than ALL non-believers. They're simply the people who receive the mark of the beast. Changing this verse so it applies to everyone wouldn't be true to the Bible, I don't think.
Mark 9:43-48 is a very good passage, one of my favorites. If you weren't aware, it is quoting a passage from Isaiah (chapter 66). Just like in Isaiah, the worms and fire in Mark feed on dead bodies (not immortal souls). That's what worms do. That is one attribute of fire. In fact, neither these verses nor the ones they quote refer to the immortal soul or even physical torment.
The other problem with the word "hell" in these passages is that they're translated from the Greek "gehinnom" or "gehenna" which means the Valley of Hinnom. Look it up. You can find some wonderful pictures of this valley. Look in books. Look in encyclopedias. Research "gehenna" if you don't believe that it's the Valley of Hinnom. The valley was once a garbage dump for the city of Jerusalem, with many fires for the incineration of trash. Whoever translated it "hell" either was misled, corrupt, or thought "hell" had different implications at the time of translation than it does now.
In Matthew 25, the eternal fire was not prepared for wicked men. The Bible clearly states for whom the fire was prepared. It also doesn't say "everlasting torment" but "everlasting punishment". If other scriptures would clearly state that there was such a thing as "eternal torment" for wicked men, this might be used to say the same. However, if there were verses talking about "eternal death", this could mean that too. What do the scriptures say? Death, perishing, destruction.
In 2 Thessalonians, you asked why "away from the presence of the Lord" is in there. I don't know everything about God, but I'd imagine because destruction will take place in the presence of the beast, the devil, and the false prophet. The lake of fire is the second death. The last thing a wicked man gets to see is not God, but horrors. That's my take on it, but then again, I don't know the reason for every single word in the Bible.
You say "destruction" does not have to mean annihilation. You say the word for "destruction" sometimes means something else. Does it ever mean "conscious torment"? If you destroy a car, the matter is still there, but it is no longer a car. That's what destruction implies when the word is used. When you destroy a car, you don't cause it pain, and the process isn't ongoing. It's a single act which lasts forever, because if a car is destroyed, it is by definition not recoverable.
The reason these verses don't indicate eternal conscious torment for the wicked is that the Revelation one isn't even talking about the afterlife or all wicked men, the Mark one quotes the Old Testament's destruction of cities, the long term effects of which we can actually observe now. The Matthew one is vague when taken on its own, but confirms exactly for whom eternal fire was prepared (not wicked men), and the Thessalonians one simply restates that the wicked will be destroyed.
In fact, if you are right and all these verse do point to eternal conscious torment, then the Bible is contradictory, because in Revelation 14, the torment takes place in the presence of the Lamb, but in 2 Thessalonians, it's away from the presence of the Lord.
I have actually researched this quite well in the past and have read both views and their reasons for believing as they do along with the Scripture they use to support their view. Your arguments are nothing new. I have seen your arguments before and others presented for annihilation and have seen rebuttals to all of them. I honestly do not see how one can get the teaching of annihilation out of the Bible if all the teachings on this in the Bible are taken as a whole. I really have no desire to continue to debate this. I doubt there is anything I could say that would change your mind as you have probably seen many arguments presented for conscious eternal torment and still believe as you do.
I will say that what you present is very dangerous. There are many unbelievers that enjoy their sinful lifestyle so much that they would probably choose to keep living that lifestyle rather than turn to Christ if they believed that the worst that waited for them were non-existence. Sure, Christians can tell them about the love of Christ and how wonderful it will be to spend eternity with Him, but some of the unbelievers could still think that since they will just cease to exist, that then they will not know that they are missing out on anything. I do not say all of this as an argument against annihilation, since if the Bible really did teach that doctrine, then what I just said would not matter. I say this because, as I said before, I believe that God's Word does not teach this doctrine.
Also, I am rather suprised that this thread has gone on as long as it has without a moderator saying anything. As I recall, I remember seeing other threads where annihilation was defended and I thought the moderators cited that it was against the TOS to make such an argument.
I have read the TOS in regards to this thread, because I didn't want to violate them. I do not believe I am in violation of our terms of service. I'm not arguing against the existence of the eternal Lake of Fire. I simply don't see ANYWHERE in the Bible where people are said to be tormented consciously for all of eternity there. If I saw that, I would believe it, but I don't. Using verses which clearly talk about a specific class of people before death only makes me disbelieve that doctrine more strongly. I'm sorry you have given up, because if I am wrong, I'd like to understand that, but I haven't seen anything to give me such an idea. It seems these verses only back up eternal conscious torment if you already believe that they must.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 2:59:44 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline
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For some reason, I'm reminded of my grandfather who would read nothing but his KJV Bible. I mean nothing. For him, a Strong's Concordance or a Vine's Expository Dictionary were too "high falutin"! He was not, at all, interested in the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek and felt that anyone that was was just plain old unsaved. If his Bible said "love", he just took it to mean our English definition of love. If it said "destruction", he also took it to mean our English definition of destruction.
Too bad.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 3:01:53 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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What reminds you of this? The fact that I researched the Greek "gehinnom" being strangely translated into "hell"?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 3:43:29 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17125
Joined: 2/28/2005
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Our Range of Doctrine (and therefore our TOS) believes in "the reality of an eternal heaven and hell". Sustained argument against it would be considered a Terms of Service violation.
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RE: The Lake of Fire - 7/23/2008 5:34:50 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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I've never argued against an eternal heaven or an eternal hell.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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