courtship vs. dating???? (Full Version)

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OneOfHisJewels -> courtship vs. dating???? (7/11/2008 4:32:33 AM)

Well the X-treme teens were talking about it...

and...this was my response to the OP in Xtreme teens, who was all gung ho for courtship:


I don't usually post in X-treme teens, because I'm far from being a teen (36 to be exact), but when I saw this title, I had to pop in. This is addressed to the original poster. When I was very very young, (16/17) I was a big fan of the courtship movement. Until..........I went through it. From ages 17-21, there was this one guy that off and on I was in a courtship with, but it never worked out, you know why? Because he wasn't so crazy about me? Far from it, he was head over heels for me. But I was completely turned off by him. You know why? Because he carried courtship to such an extreme that it was like he enjoyed my dad's company more than mine, and I felt at times that he was just using my dad to manipulate me.

So, I see where you are coming from, and some courtship principles I totally agree with (no physical touching), but I really think instead of courtship OR worldly dating, it is better to do something like christian dating which honors parents' wishes, and involves the parents, but don't ever make the girl feel like she is merely a piece of cattle that you and her dad are bargaining for. If I had not felt like I had been treated that way, I would not be a single woman today, as I did in some ways care for the guy, but being made to feel like I was on object in a store to be discussed and debated over and bargained for completely turned me OFF.


He ended up marrying someone else, but he treated her and her dad with equal value. He asked her dad's permission to date the daughter, but he also made sure he could ask the daughter herself, rather than having the dad ask on her behalf. He said he learned how to do things right with the girl he did marry from all his mistakes with me[8|] .


So, what are your thoughts, singles? And as a P.S. to the experience I shared with them, at some of our ages and circumstances, courtship just isn't PRACTICAL..I guess right now, at the moment it would be feasible for me, because I'm living at home, but many of you are far from home, and some of you don't even have parents living or your parents aren't even christians.



OneOfHisJewels -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/11/2008 4:41:27 AM)

quote:

He said he learned how to do things right with the girl he did marry from all his mistakes with me[8|] .


P.S.2: Was it tacky to tell me that?



mutinywxgirl -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/11/2008 6:19:38 AM)

You said it - it's not practical. Throw kids into the mix (as we have MANY single parents in here), and it's doubly/triply not practical. That's for the teens. It has no place in an adult's life, unless it's for your own children.

I'm not a big dater - I won't date just to date so I have something to do on the weekend. My time is far too valuable. I am VERY particular over who I will seriously date - they have got to be pretty much marriage material *for me* before I will invest time in a relationship with anyone.



Prairiehiker -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/11/2008 9:37:09 AM)

Courtship? Hmm...sorry, not for me. I'm in my late 30s and I doubt my parents would want to know anything about my love life, let alone deal with men that I date. I'm like Mutiny, I don't date unless I want to explore long term potential with a man, so most often than not, I'm spending my free time pursuing my hobbies than pursuing men.

When I do date, I'd like to get to know the person on a one on one basis. I mean, I'm the one who's going to live with him, not my friends. Though it certainly is helpful when they meet the man I choose and form their opinions about him, but in the end, I'll be the one making the final decision. I'd like to think that God has given me enough wisdom through experiences that I'd be able to discern if a relationship is worth pursuing.



ChoirDJ -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/11/2008 12:16:05 PM)

quote:

When I do date, I'd like to get to know the person on a one on one basis. I mean, I'm the one who's going to live with him, not my friends. Though it certainly is helpful when they meet the man I choose and form their opinions about him, but in the end, I'll be the one making the final decision. I'd like to think that God has given me enough wisdom through experiences that I'd be able to discern if a relationship is worth pursuing.


I totally agree with Prairiehiker...

I think courtship is a good idea for youth who are getting married because of the naivete (help me out Ladybug, is this a word or not) that goes along with the age group. Parents tend to have a clearer perspective on things because they are not as blinded by any emotions and they have a wealth of their life experience.

As a person matures, courtship may actually become an obstacle because it could set a precedent for the parents being "overinvolved" in the relationship. At any age though, it would be very wise to at least listen to the input of others who are only trying to help us in the 2nd most important decision we'll ever make in life. Someone once said that "who you marry can make the difference between whether you go to heaven or hell". This statement may sound extreme but I can actually see how there's so much truth to it.



WaitingforBoaz -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/11/2008 1:17:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChoirDJ

quote:

When I do date, I'd like to get to know the person on a one on one basis. I mean, I'm the one who's going to live with him, not my friends. Though it certainly is helpful when they meet the man I choose and form their opinions about him, but in the end, I'll be the one making the final decision. I'd like to think that God has given me enough wisdom through experiences that I'd be able to discern if a relationship is worth pursuing.


I totally agree with Prairiehiker...

I think courtship is a good idea for youth who are getting married because of the naivete (help me out Ladybug, is this a word or not) that goes along with the age group. Parents tend to have a clearer perspective on things because they are not as blinded by any emotions and they have a wealth of their life experience.

As a person matures, courtship may actually become an obstacle because it could set a precedent for the parents being "overinvolved" in the relationship. At any age though, it would be very wise to at least listen to the input of others who are only trying to help us in the 2nd most important decision we'll ever make in life. Someone once said that "who you marry can make the difference between whether you go to heaven or hell". This statement may sound extreme but I can actually see how there's so much truth to it.

I can't find one bit of truth in it.....can you explain?
We stand completely and udderly alone before the judgement seat. We will answer for what we have done and not done. Your spouse will not be there to defend or accuse.



Prairiehiker -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/11/2008 1:27:42 PM)

quote:

who you marry can make the difference between whether you go to heaven or hell". This statement may sound extreme but I can actually see how there's so much truth to it.

I can't find one bit of truth in it.....can you explain?
We stand completely and udderly alone before the judgement seat. We will answer for what we have done and not done. Your spouse will not be there to defend or accuse.


I think if the statement was taken literally, there is not an ounce of truth in it. But if taken the way the statement was meant, it means that who you marry can have a high influence on your decision of whether to follow Christ or not. I've seen people pretend to be Christ followers when they are dating a Christian, but once the dating relationship ends, so is their faith. And Vice versa. This is why the "do not be equally yoked" verse was in the bible. One who is or isn't in the faith can be pulled in the opposite direction when there is a relationship at stake.



okrox -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/11/2008 2:36:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker

quote:

who you marry can make the difference between whether you go to heaven or hell". This statement may sound extreme but I can actually see how there's so much truth to it.
I can't find one bit of truth in it.....can you explain?
We stand completely and udderly alone before the judgement seat. We will answer for what we have done and not done. Your spouse will not be there to defend or accuse.


I think if the statement was taken literally, there is not an ounce of truth in it. But if taken the way the statement was meant, it means that who you marry can have a high influence on your decision of whether to follow Christ or not. I've seen people pretend to be Christ followers when they are dating a Christian, but once the dating relationship ends, so is their faith. And Vice versa. This is why the "do not be equally yoked" verse was in the bible. One who is or isn't in the faith can be pulled in the opposite direction when there is a relationship at stake.


Whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa here! Back this pony up a bit!

This line of thought can quickly get us off topic, because, really, at the heart of it is the old debate about whether or not you can lose your salvation. To those who believe in the eternal security of the believer, then no, there's not a speck of truth in that. To those who believe that salvation must be consciously chosen at different stages in the life of a believer, there is truth to it. And since that debate has raged on before us and won't be solved by us and will go on long after us, that statement doesn't seem very useful in this original discussion.

But back to the topic:

When I first heard about courting, I was already married and a mother of youngsters. So I mainly thought about it in those terms. And I do see some merit in the argument for courtship--especially in dealing with very young or very inexperienced people. But by the time it came to my attention, it had already reached a feverish "If-you-are-any-kind-of-Christian-parent-at-all-you-will-require-this-of-your-kids-and-if-you-don't-then-God-help-you-all-you-are-dooming-your-children" pitch. And that kind of thing never sits well with me.

My two oldest are now teen-agers and are somewhat free to date within limits. And they do somewhat. But because we talk A LOT about dating and sex and marriage and its significance to Christians, I think they are going about it pretty reasonably and responsibly. They have shown themselves to be pretty sensible in other areas, so they have earned some freedom here, too. However that does NOT mean just "HEY! GO HAVE AT IT!" They have some pretty good safeguards in place, I think.

For myself, I agree with this statement of Prairiehiker's:

I'd like to think that God has given me enough wisdom through experiences that I'd be able to discern if a relationship is worth pursuing.

In fact, I believe that God IS NOW using dating to GIVE me that wisdom and discernment. In my last year of casually dating, I have seen God grow me so much further, teach me so much about faith in Him and listening to his direction. And He used dating to do that. But, hey, that's justs me. It's what He led me to do in my life. It won't be the same for everyone.

(I have to admit, though, that while it was fun and immensely educational, I won't be sad if it turns out that I am done with that part of my life. But, if not, who knows? Wherever He leads on this, I'm in.)

Oh...and one more thought about courtship: One of the major points I heard over and over is that it safeguards against sexual temptation. I think that is a ridiculous reason to court. If you are so weak that you can't trust yourself to EVER be alone with a person of the opposite sex, well, I don't think you have any business even thinking about a relationship. I think you've got bigger problems to fix, first.



ChoirDJ -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/11/2008 3:55:53 PM)

Thank you Prairiehiker...you got the jest of what I was saying.

okrox...could we move the pony forward just a tiny weeny little bit so I can clarify my statements (lol)?

What I am saying here is that the person you marry some will have an incredible amount of influence in your life for the good or for the bad. Obviously, if you are married to a nonchristian or an unspiritual spouse, that spouse could fall away and influence you in the wrong direction as well if you are not a strong christian. If you have a spiritual spouse, you can count on that person to roll up his/her sleeves, pray for you, and wrestle with you in the many spiritual battles of life. Such spouses have won over their unbelieving spouses just by their godly examples. In this sense, the type of spouse you have in your corner can (not necessarily will) make the difference between whether you fall away from the Lord out of discouragement or hang in there and grow closer to the Lord. I hope this makes sense. Now back the pony back up unless someone else needs to move him forward again[;)]!



benelchi -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/11/2008 4:31:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels

Well the X-treme teens were talking about it...

and...this was my response to the OP in Xtreme teens, who was all gung ho for courtship:


I don't usually post in X-treme teens, because I'm far from being a teen (36 to be exact), but when I saw this title, I had to pop in. This is addressed to the original poster. When I was very very young, (16/17) I was a big fan of the courtship movement. Until..........I went through it. From ages 17-21, there was this one guy that off and on I was in a courtship with, but it never worked out, you know why? Because he wasn't so crazy about me? Far from it, he was head over heels for me. But I was completely turned off by him. You know why? Because he carried courtship to such an extreme that it was like he enjoyed my dad's company more than mine, and I felt at times that he was just using my dad to manipulate me.

So, I see where you are coming from, and some courtship principles I totally agree with (no physical touching), but I really think instead of courtship OR worldly dating, it is better to do something like christian dating which honors parents' wishes, and involves the parents, but don't ever make the girl feel like she is merely a piece of cattle that you and her dad are bargaining for. If I had not felt like I had been treated that way, I would not be a single woman today, as I did in some ways care for the guy, but being made to feel like I was on object in a store to be discussed and debated over and bargained for completely turned me OFF.


He ended up marrying someone else, but he treated her and her dad with equal value. He asked her dad's permission to date the daughter, but he also made sure he could ask the daughter herself, rather than having the dad ask on her behalf. He said he learned how to do things right with the girl he did marry from all his mistakes with me[8|] .


So, what are your thoughts, singles? And as a P.S. to the experience I shared with them, at some of our ages and circumstances, courtship just isn't PRACTICAL..I guess right now, at the moment it would be feasible for me, because I'm living at home, but many of you are far from home, and some of you don't even have parents living or your parents aren't even christians.



I really agree with your perspective on this. I do believe their is a lot of good that has come out of the courtship movement, and Christian "dating" should look a lot more like courtship than it does worldly dating (unfortunately often it does not), but what I have found is that often those who push courtship the strongest really are nitpicking semantics and what "terms" to use rather than putting their effort into dealing with the real heart issues.

On the other side of the issue, I do find foolish the idea that when one is older they should date differently i.e. that they are old enough to make their own decisions. While I don't believe anyone needs to go and get their parents permission, they hopefully should be wise enough to realize that they should seek out godly counsel from one who might be in a position to be a bit more objective; love can really blind us sometimes, and as mature Christians we should be wise enough to recognize that fact.



okrox -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/11/2008 5:24:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChoirDJ

Thank you Prairiehiker...you got the jest of what I was saying.

okrox...could we move the pony forward just a tiny weeny little bit so I can clarify my statements (lol)?

What I am saying here is that the person you marry some will have an incredible amount of influence in your life for the good or for the bad. Obviously, if you are married to a nonchristian or an unspiritual spouse, that spouse could fall away and influence you in the wrong direction as well if you are not a strong christian. If you have a spiritual spouse, you can count on that person to roll up his/her sleeves, pray for you, and wrestle with you in the many spiritual battles of life. Such spouses have won over their unbelieving spouses just by their godly examples. In this sense, the type of spouse you have in your corner can (not necessarily will) make the difference between whether you fall away from the Lord out of discouragement or hang in there and grow closer to the Lord. I hope this makes sense. Now back the pony back up unless someone else needs to move him forward again[;)]!


Oh, I totally agree with that, pony-driver! [;)]

But my point is that telling a Christian that a wrong choice of a mate can influence your place in eternity makes no sense whatsoever to the many Christians who believe in the doctrine of eternal security. (The infamous "once-saved, always-saved" in short.) A lot of Christians (like me! No surprise there, huh? LOL) believe that, while you can indeed, "fall away", you can never fall away far enough to lose your place in heaven. So to us, that statement makes no sense and is just there for dramatic effect. However, if you do believe that you can lose your salvation, then, yeah, that statement would hold a lot of truth. Because I don't know of any other earthly decision that affects your future more than your choice of spouse.

Ok...giddy-up, horsies! Get me out of here before the mods send me elsewhere for getting OT! Thanks for your comments, DJ...meet you back at the Topic! [:D]



CoeurdeLeon_ -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/11/2008 6:07:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels

quote:

He said he learned how to do things right with the girl he did marry from all his mistakes with me[8|] .


P.S.2: Was it tacky to tell me that?

It might not have been the best way to say it but my guess would be that he was admitting to you that he realized he had made mistakes with you.



ChoirDJ -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/12/2008 2:39:47 AM)

Honestly, I had never really thought much about the idea of courtship until a couple of threads popped up on the topic. I'm going to back-pedal a little bit on something I said earlier. My presumption was that courtship almost always had to do with parents "monitoring" the relationship. The idea of prearranged marriages and such sort of popped up in my mind but that's only one type of courtship. I have seen another form of courtship and it didn't even dawn on me that it was courtship. This happens when ministers or mentors of a dating couple get involved to give the couple advice and support. Sometimes these mentors even serve as go betweens when necessary. I think this is wise at any age because you have persons involved that know both characters. So, I guess I do believe in this type of courtship. The Bible does teach that plans succeed with many advisers and isn't this sort of what courtship is? Even after the marriage, most couples would benefit from regular discipleship times with spiritual mentors.



John_O -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/12/2008 12:04:27 PM)

I agree with most others here. Classical Courtship is just not practical for grown-ups.

But that doesn't mean we totally disregard our parents input either. We need to remember that when we marry, we also marry their family. If the family has serious problems with us then we will (most likely) have serious problems in our marriage as our spouse is pulled between us and them.

So guys, remember to pursue her family too. If they like you and she likes you, and you like all of them, then you'll have many more people pulling you both together than pulling you apart.

And that's the whole goal of all this courtship/dating anyway right?



ChoirDJ -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/12/2008 12:21:49 PM)

Excellent post John_O...I totally agree. Marriage in and of itself is challenging enough without the added tension of stress among the in-laws.



CoeurdeLeon_ -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/12/2008 1:37:34 PM)

I'm going to have to come to grips with my exact thoughts on this topic, not for myself, but for my kids.[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif][sm=icon_smile_faint.gif][sm=icon_smile_boggled.gif]



WaitingforBoaz -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/12/2008 2:00:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon

I'm going to have to come to grips with my exact thoughts on this topic, not for myself, but for my kids.[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif][sm=icon_smile_faint.gif][sm=icon_smile_boggled.gif]


This is a very real issue for me. Do I model my dating behaviors after what I decide will be appropriate for my daughters. I am forty-two, they will be ????? young. Can they even be compared? I'm sure they will compare My dating behavior with what is requred of them. I'm not sure how they will differ but I am sure that there will be some glaring differences. This is a huge area of prayer right now. [&:]



CoeurdeLeon_ -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/12/2008 2:06:22 PM)

I wasn't really thinking about that aspect of it. I was just thinking "WHAT am I gonna do when (not if, when) my 15yr old gets asked out????"

I mean we've talked about dating and courtship. A lot. But I haven't set down any rules yet. I was waiting til it was time. Well, it's soon gonna be time!

As far as myself, I don't really see myself dating much, if at all, these next couple years. If that should somehow change, the kids are smart enough to know that I am answerable to God but that they are still under my leadership and it's a whole different ballgame.



WaitingforBoaz -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/12/2008 3:28:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon

I wasn't really thinking about that aspect of it. I was just thinking "WHAT am I gonna do when (not if, when) my 15yr old gets asked out????"

I mean we've talked about dating and courtship. A lot. But I haven't set down any rules yet. I was waiting til it was time. Well, it's soon gonna be time!

As far as myself, I don't really see myself dating much, if at all, these next couple years. If that should somehow change, the kids are smart enough to know that I am answerable to God but that they are still under my leadership and it's a whole different ballgame.


I know exactly what you mean. My twins are 14 and surrounded by boys. Right now they are content to have TPing wars[8|] but that won't last forever.



ebony101 -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/13/2008 10:25:34 AM)

Courtship - the old fashioned way!!!

At my age I think not!



jika -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (7/13/2008 4:05:51 PM)

Courtship or dating I believe one should have in mind that they are christians so there has to be order, respect, displine , integrity and love. Reading one of his jewels' experience there was something missing.
Well, I think both are wonderful and either may work well for some singles because of culture, upbringing, distance between the two etc. But whatever you choose its important for you to know that you are dating or courting, Gods own as a result his or her keeper for we are our brothers keeper. Not forgetting that we are His temple, so anything I contribute towords defiling you, means I have failed to keep my brother.
I do not feel that either courtship or dating is bad because these are means, but individuals who take these way too far, like some people date for years and you wonder how much time they need to commit.



onthewayray -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (8/10/2008 8:23:09 PM)

I think we should just be who we are when we date someone. Why be someone you are not?
They will find out sooner or later who you realy are. Right?



John_O -> RE: courtship vs. dating???? (8/10/2008 9:00:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onthewayray

I think we should just be who we are when we date someone. Why be someone you are not?
They will find out sooner or later who you realy are. Right?



This is exactly correct. It's also easiest. You don't have to create a new persona, and you don't have to remember that persona. Not only is honesty commanded by God but it is the easiest policy to follow. If you don't lie you don't have to remember the lies you told.



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