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SuspenseWriter -> concerning agents (7/11/2008 3:57:29 PM)

Hey folks, just wanted to direct you to yesterday's blog post from my agent, Chip MacGregor. He's been doing this since heck was a pup (as my granny used to say), and he answers some good questions from authors about an agent's role in their lives. Good stuff. Check it out at http://chipmacgregor.com/ when you have a minute.



weaselofdoom -> RE: concerning agents (7/12/2008 4:25:35 PM)

Thank you for this information! Wow, I actually came here to ask a few of these questions today. Now I don't have to.

A quick one for you though John, did you have an agent when you published your first book?

-Regards



SuspenseWriter -> RE: concerning agents (7/12/2008 6:18:10 PM)

My very first one, no. It was inadvertantly done with a scam publishing house, and I really didn't realize what had happened until the book came out (in my own defense, this was back in 2001, when they'd yet to be known on the 'Net). While I set about getting the rights to that novel back (which took three years and a literary attorney's intervention), I wrote another one. For this one I got an agent, and they got a deal for that novel and two more in the series.



weaselofdoom -> RE: concerning agents (7/14/2008 11:07:28 PM)

Wow, that sounds like quite a headache! I'm glad it eventually worked out.

Would you suggest than a beginning writer who is working on a book series get an agent or work through the market alone?



SuspenseWriter -> RE: concerning agents (7/15/2008 12:58:07 AM)

It's becoming steadily harder to get even a look from a house without an agent. Within five years, it'll be well-nigh impossible. Get an agent (Christian Writers Market Guide 2008 lists a bunch). Once you select one, trust but verify. If any agent asks you for any upfront money, walk away. Just like a realtor, a literary agent makes their money on the back end, as a commission when they sell they work. Not a penny before.



weaselofdoom -> RE: concerning agents (7/20/2008 10:35:27 PM)

No upfront money. This is good advise. I bet there are lots of publishers and agents who prey off unsuspecting first time writers who are desperate for a little attention.



SuspenseWriter -> RE: concerning agents (7/21/2008 10:29:50 AM)

Sadly, that's very true.



Dancre -> RE: concerning agents (7/21/2008 7:06:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: weaselofdoom

No upfront money. This is good advise. I bet there are lots of publishers and agents who prey off unsuspecting first time writers who are desperate for a little attention.


I have to disagree with this. First Time writers aren't looking for attention, they're just wanting to do what most writers want, a published book. Just b/c they are niave doesn't mean they want 'attention'.

I was almost pulled in by a bad agent who tried to prey off of me and all I had wanted was a sold book. the only thing that saved me was a wise woman suggesting I check out BBB, which I did. The agent had a very bad rep, so I dropped her. (I found out later she was wanted by the FBI.) But a part of me didn't want to believe she was a scammer b/c I didn't understand how the writing world works.

Newbie writers have a sense of innocence on them that says, everyone in the writing world must be legit. That's why John and others warn about the dangers out there. If a writer doesn't listen, then it's their fault. But if they don't know some are scamers, then how can anyone blame them? The writing world is totally different from any other area out there, it has its own rhythm, its own breath, its own way of doing things. Its like a living entity. Its a different world that follows a different drum. So of course, newbies are sucked in. that's why others must warn them, teach them, lead them. If they ignore the warnings, then its their own fault. And yeah, the scammers do prey off the innocent. It's sad, but true. And almost all writers fall into the same trap. Why? Because they don't know what happens out here in the writing world. When one opens the phone book and calls a plumber, they expect the plumber to be legit. Most of the time, they are. Same with Mechanics, doctors, accountants. Yet in the writing world, it's different. One has a 50/50 chance of getting a scammer or a legit agent. And if one doesn't know the signs of a scammer, then how one blame them?

Some writers do get desperate -like I was- and instead of improving their writing skills, which they should always do, they take a chance on a scammer despite the warning signs. Again, it's just a sign of being niave. It's taken me 10 years to figure out how to improve my writing skills and to learn about the writing world, and I'm still learning. most folks don't realize it takes soooo long to figure this stuff out. Again, writing is a breathing, living entity. It builds upon itself, layer upon layer. that's why those of us who do know how this world works must help those who don't. If they don't want the help, then that's their problem.

And may I also add, it's heartbreaking when the newbie writer realizes the only people who want to work with her/him are the scammers. It's like the nerd girl realizing the popular high school quarterback went out with her b/c his buddies dared him to do it. [&o] It can destroy the writer's soul.

kim



SuspenseWriter -> RE: concerning agents (7/21/2008 7:27:23 PM)

Good stuff, Kim. Case in point: the Publisher That Shall Not Be Named.

Back eight years ago, almost no one had heard of them; their presence on the 'Net was very nearly nil. That's how they got me (but as I said upthread, it didn't take long after that for me to realize what had happened, and to begin taking steps to rectify it).

These days, with so much out there on them--and others--the writers who fall for their honey-tongued spiel usually divide into three camps: the willfully blind (and there is a disheartening number of these), the research-challenged, and the aggressively illiterate. All one has to do is peruse the sites' own writing boards for ten minutes to verify this.

Again, and it can't be stated too strongly, writing for publication is a craft, and should be viewed as such. For every writer infused with Golden Word Syndrome (not saying I've seen that here, just, y'know, saying) there are three scams to nail them. Sad, but true.



Dancre -> RE: concerning agents (7/21/2008 8:08:58 PM)

So I'm guessing that publisher has a P in their first name, and an A in the second name, right? tee hee. I think I know who you are taking of. Too bad the newbies don't know them. It breaks my heart to pieces to see such talent used and abused like a teen prostitute. [&o] sigh . . . I think anyone who has the desire to write can and will be published one day. But the scammers take them under their wings and instead of showing them the way to writing, they consume them, eating them alive. [:o] And that's what makes me angry about the scammers.

And speaking of craft, I'm reading the BEST writing book I've read in a long time: Creating Fiction. Have you read this book yet? WON-DER-FUL!! Writers, who teach crafting the novel in universities, cover different chapters like point of view, voice, (this book has the BEST chapter on minor characters - totally changed my view of them) etc. It's birthed out of the Associated Writing Programs. But it's in depth stuff, not just floating over the surface junk. Like the first chapter is: going to see the Elephant: our duty as storytellers. The first sentence is "There is magic and mystery at the heart of it. Say anything you want about "the creative process," but what is clear and certain is that we don't really understand it." And that's it, we don't get it, even those who have written for centuries, still don't get it. It IS a craft that should be nourished, cherished and even hated at times. And that's what the scammers WON'T teach, the mystery and magic of writing. :(

kim


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter

Good stuff, Kim. Case in point: the Publisher That Shall Not Be Named.

Back eight years ago, almost no one had heard of them; their presence on the 'Net was very nearly nil. That's how they got me (but as I said upthread, it didn't take long after that for me to realize what had happened, and to begin taking steps to rectify it).

These days, with so much out there on them--and others--the writers who fall for their honey-tongued spiel usually divide into three camps: the willfully blind (and there is a disheartening number of these), the research-challenged, and the aggressively illiterate. All one has to do is peruse the sites' own writing boards for ten minutes to verify this.

Again, and it can't be stated too strongly, writing for publication is a craft, and should be viewed as such. For every writer infused with Golden Word Syndrome (not saying I've seen that here, just, y'know, saying) there are three scams to nail them. Sad, but true.



SuspenseWriter -> RE: concerning agents (7/21/2008 8:20:16 PM)

Regarding the publisher, as my Granddad used to say, "you guessed 'er, Chester!" [:D]

I've heard of the book you mentioned, but haven't read it. Hope to when I get time (hah!). Right now I'm ghosting a memior (halfway done, and the church said hallelujah! ), as well as tweaking the two manuscripts I'll be taking with me to the ACFW conference. But I'd like to read it sometime!



weaselofdoom -> RE: concerning agents (7/21/2008 8:37:01 PM)

I am glad to be reading this thread. I was hoping to find a few writers to learn from and I think I've hit the jackpot.

BTW, you actually do agree with me about "attention". I tend to leave a lot to the imagination on blogs like these. It's good for dialogue. I intended the word to cover the broadest possible definition - including having a book published.

I also wouldn't underestimate the influence a "weasel" could just by building up a writer's ego...

"Your the next Mark Twain." "You'll sell tons of books!" "You have a bright future in writing!" "Now just write me a check for $500 and we'll get started."



Dancre -> RE: concerning agents (7/21/2008 10:39:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter

Regarding the publisher, as my Granddad used to say, "you guessed 'er, Chester!" [:D]

I've heard of the book you mentioned, but haven't read it. Hope to when I get time (hah!). Right now I'm ghosting a memior (halfway done, and the church said hallelujah! ), as well as tweaking the two manuscripts I'll be taking with me to the ACFW conference. But I'd like to read it sometime!


I feel so sorry for you, getting suckered by that horrible publisher. :( Makes my fur ruffle!!!

I hope you get to read the book one day. I'm doing the lessons in the book, the first chapter lesson is taking a bad and evil character and finding good qualities in him, what happens to him? I chose Ted Bundy. Every website I saw said the same thing: He's evil, evil, evil. Yet James Dobson did an interview with him and Bundy begged Dobson to warn folks about porn. He said he said he regretted doing what he did and gave his life to Christ. (I don't know if he really did give his life to Christ or if he truly was sorry for killing those women, that wasn't the point.) The point was make this evil guy a sympathetic character and I saw how to do it. Now I can write a short story about a serial killer who regrets killing.

Then take a saint and make them unsympathetic. I chose St. Margaret of Scotland. Again, every website I went to said she was a lovely and wonderful woman who just loved everyone and everybody. Until I came across information that said she was responsible for the demise of the celtic (Gaelic) culture. Very interesting. She took away the Gaelic Christian Church and replaced it with the Roman Catholic Church and also took away the rights of the Gaelic courts. The lowlands of Scotland called her Accursed Margaret and her legacy lived on in her children in which they warred with the Scots for over 100 years. Not much of a saint. But again, the point is find faults in a Saint. I found some dooseys!! Again, I can now write a short story about a Saint who really isn't one. And write both stories from the character's pov or someone elses. cool, huh? It's great lesson.

The third lessons is a little hard for me. You accept an offer to pose nude in a playboy/girl magazine. Write four letters: One to the magazine accepting the offer, one to your spouse/ bf/gf explaining why you are doing this. One to your parents. (Oh, dear God!!) and one to your pastor. Yeah, I'll get right on that one. Oh, dear. The goal is to notice how different you sound in each letter and which one is the real you. I don't know if I'm ready for this one. you go first. ECKK!!

Hey Weasel, if you really want some great writing tips, check out Absolutewrite.com's bb. that's where i learned alot on writing. Here's my favey thread: Learning to write with Uncle Jim Jim McDonald is a prof writer and teacher who graciously gives writing lessons to those who listen. I learned a lot from him. Also the website is chuck full of great writing tips.
And I've heard those lines sooo many times, they just bounce off of me. :) But in reality, that's what those horrible agents do, build up an innocent, niave writer and take them for everything they have. :((( sad, huh? [:(]

Just remember, writing is a love affair with words. Sometimes they love you back, other times they don't. treat them with respect and they'll treat you with respect. yeah, yeah, I know, sounds goofy. [&:]

kim

kim



mvic -> RE: concerning agents (7/22/2008 6:16:58 AM)

quote:

Christian Writers Market Guide 2008



mvic -> RE: concerning agents (7/22/2008 6:24:31 AM)

Hi,

Sorry - really messed up in the previous post. Don't know what happened.

Anyway; the Christian Writers Market Guide is not available in the UK. I self-published using a US Christian Self-Publisher. It's a Christian Fiction paperback available on Amazon and other booksellers websites.

How does one find an agent in the US to promote the book? Are there websites with lists of reputable Christian agents? I hold the Copyright to the book and can move to another publisher if required.

Of course, the book could be just bad ... would an agent say so; or would he take you for a ride?

Thanx.



SuspenseWriter -> RE: concerning agents (7/22/2008 9:15:50 AM)

Once a book, especially a novel, has been self-published, its chance of being considered by an agent or a commercial house becomes vanishingly small (unless they're scammers; they'll figure you've paid once, and maybe they can get you to do it again). The only way it could happen is if you've managed to move a startling amount of units yourself (in the 10,000 range).



mvic -> RE: concerning agents (7/22/2008 9:51:02 AM)

Thanx SuspenseWriter,

So presumably I'm doomed ... as there's no chance that I can sell 10,000 copies myself.

As you know, Christian fiction isn't that popular compared to the overall marketplace. Especially here in the UK.



Dancre -> RE: concerning agents (7/22/2008 6:31:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Thanx SuspenseWriter,

So presumably I'm doomed ... as there's no chance that I can sell 10,000 copies myself.

As you know, Christian fiction isn't that popular compared to the overall marketplace. Especially here in the UK.


hold on there, sport. Don't go tossing out the baby just yet. You wrote one novel, you can write another one, and another and another. Agents don't necessarily tell you if your writing is bad, they'll just send you a happy little, no thanks letter. That could mean, we don't deal with that genre, we aren't taking anymore books at this time or yes, you can't write worth a dime. That's why it's so important to know the craft of writing and get others' opinions on your story, so you can know what needs work, what doesn't. capise?

here's a hint: If the agent says, it doesn't pull me in, that's an indication that you're not showing enough and you're mostly telling the story. If she says, I don't care about the characters, then that means make the characters more realistic, more human. Sometimes it's the query letter that stinks and not the writing. I noticed when I improved the query letter, I actually got letters from the editor herself saying they can't take anymore books at this time, but she loves the idea. Don't give up just yet, mate. Hang in there and learn and write and send out and learn. And can you get the Christian writers book on Amazon.com? I know there's also a secular Writers market book that could also help you.

Edit: I'm going to be honest with you, Vic. I read some of your novel excerpts on your website and I don't think your writing is all that bad. When someone says, I self publish, I usually scurry away. the writing is sometimes pretty bad and my poor eyes beg for mercy. But this time I peeked at your book and it's pretty dog gone good. you have your own unique writing style, an interesting character, and an interesting story. I say, write more and sell it, for real this time. :)

kim



mvic -> RE: concerning agents (7/22/2008 7:48:29 PM)

Thanx Kim for the words of encouragement.

Much appreciated.

God bless.



Dancre -> RE: concerning agents (7/22/2008 8:29:10 PM)

;)



weaselofdoom -> RE: concerning agents (7/22/2008 8:47:29 PM)

Here is where I'm at in my writing process. I would appreciate any advise anyone may have.

I am writing a series of 12 unique short stories. There will be 4 books total, each containing 3 stories. My target audience is a tough one - men on the go, but I have a solid marketing plan and writing style that gives the word "unique" a whole spin (yea, I know you have all heard that one before). Anyways, I have one story completed one nearly finished and several others in the hopper. I also have a solid book proposal that is ready to roll.

So, now I am looking for a little direction. Get an agent? Contact publishers? Find a mentor? I don't know. I could easily design and publish the thing myself (I am a graphic designer who used to work at a book printing company) but I'm leaning against doing that.

My greatest enemy is the same one that plagues my audience - time. Time to write, time to research, time to much of anything. It is a little frustrating sitting here spinning...

Hey look at the clock. Time to go.



Dancre -> RE: concerning agents (7/25/2008 7:04:56 PM)

Well, I was hoping John could answer this one, but I think he's a bit busy. :) First of all, from what I've learned, it's a bit harder to sell a book of short stories than it is a novel, unless of course your are Britney Spears or Madonna or a writing teacher of some fancy university or an established author. Also the publishers want the entire book done, not parts or almost done. You might find more success if you try to sell your short stories to magazines and such. Then you can build a reputation and perhaps sell the book of short stories. Of course, in the writing world nothing is set in stone. Don't ever give up. It might just work, but beware of the Print on Demand stuff. You'll have a hard time selling stuff if you go that way. God's blessing!!!! :)


Edit: Also, according to John, publishers are looking for Chick Lit now, not tough guy stuff. yeah, I know, GAG!!!! [:'(]
kim



weaselofdoom -> RE: concerning agents (7/25/2008 9:40:16 PM)

Thanks for the reply Kim.

I'm not Madonna, but I might wear #13 and play for the Yanks.

Maybe no...

So, no one likes selling short stuff and no guys will buy it. From some of the stuff I've seen, I don't blame them. I know there is a market for "dude lit". It just hasn't been realized. Just the other day I was talking with a friend about what is perhaps the most popular guy book on the market. His complaint? Even it was way too long and redundant.

If this were easy, it wouldn't be any fun.



Dancre -> RE: concerning agents (7/25/2008 10:19:48 PM)

I completely and totally agree with you. There are so many 'holes' in christian lit. Very little Christian horror and spy novels, guy stories and other stuff. But Christian publishers are like Pavlow's dogs, they think if they show the reader only one thing, they'll salivate. Yet I hear so many readers who want horror, spy novels, mysteries, guy stuff, etc. But it's just not there. The publishers think the readers don't want them. It really is a shame. But you might want to think about turning one of those short stories into a novel, you might get past the gate keeper and a secular one at that. The christian publisher might not want it. Not chick enough. God's blessings, my friend, I hope you make it. :)



SuspenseWriter -> RE: concerning agents (7/26/2008 12:28:43 AM)

Ya'll are gonna get a kick out of this. Okay, I said I'm going to the ACFW conference in September, and finally got around to checking what editors are going to be there, and what they're looking for (yea, I know: duh! [:D]). Anyway, you could have knocked me over with feather. About half are presently looking for "guy" stuff, SF, and suspense! Now THAT'S what I'm talking about! Looks like God's answering some prayers, folks. For all of us.



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