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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/12/2008 11:23:29 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
We hold that since scripture is not a science text, we do not need to alter scripture to make it agree with science.
You're right. A theistic evolutionists labels the Bible as unliteralistic, allegorical, mythical, and fictional, and with these labels come the capability of no absolute truth of a certain Scripture verse. You can change your interpretation of a verse 30 times and be right every time if you label the Bible (or any book) like this. Therefor, Scripture will never prove you wrong. Scripture will never prove anyone wrong if you interpret it this way. Even the basic laws laid down is scriptures don;t mean what they say if you treat them as mere stories and/or myths.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/12/2008 11:27:29 PM
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CrimsonMoon
Posts: 24
Joined: 6/17/2005
From: Philadelphia, PA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
Do you have a point?
I have never heard a Christian say that parts of the Bible were fiction before. I have only ever heard that from atheists who say Jesus was not God and that He didn't rise from the dead.
If all you are referring to is Job and parables, I apolygize, I misunderstood. (Though I beleive Job was a historical person, I have heard the argument that he was not and shall not hold that against you. But I must add that most people don't refer to parts of the gospels as fiction -- most people would get the wrong impression as I did).
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
_____________________________
"Be ready always to give a defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope within you" -- Rabbi Cephus, 63 AD
My Blog: Nightmares and Dreamscapes
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/12/2008 11:32:36 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
It is the Baptists and Anabaptists who were called Radicals.
By who? Roman Catholics? This will sound blunt, but I could honestly care less what a RC labels me. We are only "radicals" because we don't believe the un-scriptural ideologies of the RCC.
A RC accuses Baptists of being radicals because they would like people to believe that Baptist was a Protestant denomination, but it can be argued with almost factual certainty that Baptists reformer of the RCC. So actually, IMO, the RCC is radical. 
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 12:07:44 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7784
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
That problem comes from some Christians (I won't point fingers) thinking everything is their business. I have yet to see a scientist go to court to secure the rights to teach the Theory of Evolution in Christian Churches.
Well, that is because no one is forcing scientists to pay for churches.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 12:34:40 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
It is the Baptists and Anabaptists who were called Radicals.
By who?
Historians.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 12:40:09 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoon
Though I beleive Job was a historical person, I have heard the argument that he was not and shall not hold that against you. But I must add that most people don't refer to parts of the gospels as fiction -- most people would get the wrong impression as I did.
I would say the book of Job is fiction even if Job was historical. In much the same way as Shakespeare's play about Julius Caesar is fictional even though Julius Caesar was a historical person who really was assassinated by Cassius and Brutus.
quote:
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Amen. Of course this does not rule out fiction as good fiction can be profitable for teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness---and inspired.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 12:48:04 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
We hold that since scripture is not a science text, we do not need to alter scripture to make it agree with science.
You're right. A theistic evolutionists labels the Bible as unliteralistic, allegorical, mythical, and fictional, and with these labels come the capability of no absolute truth of a certain Scripture verse. You can change your interpretation of a verse 30 times and be right every time if you label the Bible (or any book) like this. Therefor, Scripture will never prove you wrong. Scripture will never prove anyone wrong if you interpret it this way. Even the basic laws laid down is scriptures don;t mean what they say if you treat them as mere stories and/or myths.
And here we see the literalist misunderstanding of literature, of literary interpretation, and prejudice against stories as vehicles of revelation well laid out.
No, it is not true that you can interpret literature any which way you want to or change the interpretation 30 times over and be right every time.
It is not true that non-scientific literature can be legitimately interpreted so that it doesn't mean what it says.
Try that sort of thing with any professor of literature and see how well it flies. Don't expect a passing grade.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 9:34:32 AM
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drmark
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Try that sort of thing with any professor of literature and see how well it flies. Don't expect a passing grade. I would consider it an honor to receive a failing grade from most any humanist E Lit prof who disagreed with my interpretation of non-scientific literature. Our worldviews are diametrically opposed and we both know it!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 10:21:12 AM
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Veritas
Posts: 504
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That problem comes from some Christians (I won't point fingers) thinking everything is their business. I have yet to see a scientist go to court to secure the rights to teach the Theory of Evolution in Christian Churches.
Well, that is because no one is forcing scientists to pay for churches.
The government does force scientists to help pay for churches.
Churches are tax-exempt. Tax-exemptions do not decrease the amount of monies needed by the taxing bodies The tax burden is just shifted to the non-exempt parties. So, the non-exempt parties are paying for services, such as police and fire protection and roads, that the exempt parties enjoy.
By paying for services that are used by churches, scientists and everyone else are paying for churches.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 12:51:45 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 426
Joined: 8/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That problem comes from some Christians (I won't point fingers) thinking everything is their business. I have yet to see a scientist go to court to secure the rights to teach the Theory of Evolution in Christian Churches.
Well, that is because no one is forcing scientists to pay for churches.
No one is ever "forced" to pay for churches. They get a free ride in our society.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 1:12:48 PM
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GHitch
Posts: 178
Joined: 7/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Aristocrat
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That problem comes from some Christians (I won't point fingers) thinking everything is their business. I have yet to see a scientist go to court to secure the rights to teach the Theory of Evolution in Christian Churches.
Well, that is because no one is forcing scientists to pay for churches.
No one is ever "forced" to pay for churches. They get a free ride in our society.
Well someone pays for them.
All charitable non profit organizations get a 'free ride' in that sense.
_____________________________
"The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order." Sir F. Hoyle
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 1:30:13 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 426
Joined: 8/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
The Theory of Evolution is science and is not disputed anywhere in the Bible.
Well.......it depends on how you look at the Bible, but I won;t go there on this thread. LOL. I'm sure people are fed up with that. No it does not depend on how you look at the Bible. However, some Christians "use" thier elitist interpretation of the Bible to dispute the Theory of Evolution. There is no other way to dispute the evidence of the Theory of Evolution. And a "Holy Book" is hardly a good contradiction to established evidence.
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You first claim that there is no verse in Scriptures that shows science is a tool of Satan (which I agree that there are no verses that show this),
Okay, we both know that there is no scientific terminology, application or methodology mentioned in the Bible. Upon that we agree.
quote:
yet, you have no verses to somehow prove science is not a tool used by the Holy Spirit to convict an individual. This is a bit hypocritical to demand a verse to prove one's belief, and then have no verse to prove yours.
Actually I do.
John:4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Science is about temporal information and is not apart of God's kingdom. We enter God's kingdom upon death of the flesh. Science is not concerned with anything beyond the temporal existance of life.
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And as a matter of fact, there is a verse that could be used to prove science is a tool of the Holy Spirit's conviction (Psalm 19:1).
1 The heavens proclaim the glory of God.
The skies display his craftsmanship.
All temporal matter displays God's craftmanship. And this is all science concerns itself with.
quote:
I just don't understand the hissy fit some theistic evolutionists get into when one attempts to combine science and religion. They somehow claim science and religion don't belong together, but I see no Scriptural evidence for this.
God belongs in the hearts of the scientists who believe, not with the lab rats, and petri dishes.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 1:31:55 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 426
Joined: 8/3/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Aristocrat
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That problem comes from some Christians (I won't point fingers) thinking everything is their business. I have yet to see a scientist go to court to secure the rights to teach the Theory of Evolution in Christian Churches.
Well, that is because no one is forcing scientists to pay for churches.
No one is ever "forced" to pay for churches. They get a free ride in our society.
Well someone pays for them.
All charitable non profit organizations get a 'free ride' in that sense.
Churches are not charitable organizations! They are places of worship and religious instruction. If they never participated in any charitable work, they would still be tax exempt.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 1:35:54 PM
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Veritas
Posts: 504
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Aristocrat
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That problem comes from some Christians (I won't point fingers) thinking everything is their business. I have yet to see a scientist go to court to secure the rights to teach the Theory of Evolution in Christian Churches.
Well, that is because no one is forcing scientists to pay for churches.
No one is ever "forced" to pay for churches. They get a free ride in our society.
Somebody has to pay for that free ride, and that somebody is the other taxpayers. We are forced to pay for churches.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 4:01:40 PM
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GHitch
Posts: 178
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
Somebody has to pay for that free ride, and that somebody is the other taxpayers. We are forced to pay for churches.
Baloney. That someone is church goers.
Governments do not fund building or operating churches.
But I'll you what, if we Christians are allowed to stop paying taxes for the religious doctrines of secular humanism (such as Darwinism and atheism) taught since over 60 years in our public school system, then maybe you could start whining over your tax dollars that do not go into any church and no church has ever seen!! Sheesh.
_____________________________
"The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order." Sir F. Hoyle
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 4:07:10 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
Somebody has to pay for that free ride, and that somebody is the other taxpayers. We are forced to pay for churches.
Baloney. That someone is church goers.
Governments do not fund building or operating churches.
But I'll you what, if we Christians are allowed to stop paying taxes for the religious doctrines of secular humanism
Many of you seem to be working very hard for that very end. Question is, were you to succeed would you then fairly and duly relinquish tax breaks for churches?
*not that I agree with the premise that schools preach 'secular humanism' and atheism. You guys seriously sound worse than the '9/11 was an inside job' tin foil hat wearing wackos sometimes.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 4:52:25 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 426
Joined: 8/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
All churches practice some kind of charity - its part and package of the roots of Christianity. I know that about Christian Churches. What I'm saying is that being charitable is not what makes them tax exempt.
quote:
And I remind you that that the instruction given is free. No one has to give anything.
Nor do people who give to the charitable organizations you mention.
quote:
You seem to have an angst against churches. Maybe you should go to a good one... that practices charity.
Not at all. Even atheists should feel a sense of National pride knowing that we can gather to worship God in our denomination of choice, without coercion from the state, royalty or political leaders for granting personal favors. And further, that we are not mandated to do so by any religious or secular authority.
Creationists think differently. They see nothing wrong with mandating that their God be a part of secular public institutions and organizations.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 5:00:41 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 426
Joined: 8/3/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
Somebody has to pay for that free ride, and that somebody is the other taxpayers. We are forced to pay for churches.
Baloney. That someone is church goers.
Governments do not fund building or operating churches. All income of any recognized religion is exempt from taxes. Land that churches are built on are tax exempt. The state can in no way manipulate the coffers of religious institutions. It is part of the amendment separating church and state.
quote:
But I'll you what, if we Christians are allowed to stop paying taxes for the religious doctrines of secular humanism (such as Darwinism and atheism) taught since over 60 years in our public school system, then maybe you could start whining over your tax dollars that do not go into any church and no church has ever seen!! Sheesh.
There is no such thing as secular humanism. That is a term coined by a disgruntled Christian Evangelist who was afraid of losing tithe money as people figured out for themselves whether or not they would follow Christ.
Ask any Christian in the field of science, who devotes his career to research and teaching the natural sciences. He/she remains a Christian.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 5:04:21 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 426
Joined: 8/3/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoon
If all you are referring to is Job and parables, I apolygize, I misunderstood. (Though I beleive Job was a historical person, I have heard the argument that he was not and shall not hold that against you. But I must add that most people don't refer to parts of the gospels as fiction -- most people would get the wrong impression as I did).
I take it you are not referring to the Old Testament of the Bible as part of the Gospel, are you?
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 6:59:49 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7784
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
The government does force scientists to help pay for churches.
Churches are tax-exempt. Tax-exemptions do not decrease the amount of monies needed by the taxing bodies The tax burden is just shifted to the non-exempt parties. So, the non-exempt parties are paying for services, such as police and fire protection and roads, that the exempt parties enjoy.
By paying for services that are used by churches, scientists and everyone else are paying for churches.
Actually, the people going to those churches have already been taxed for those services, so the scientists aren't paying anymore than they would if no churches existed at all.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 7:00:08 PM
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Aristocrat
Posts: 426
Joined: 8/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Why turn our backs on knowledge? Maybe if we stop trying to make religion and science the same concept, God can better use science to continue to make this a better world.
After all, isn't that what Christians pray for? Actually, Jesus modelled for us to pray that God the Father's Will be done here on earth as it is in Heaven. We know as Christians what that the Father's will is, don't we. To love our neighbor as ourself? Doesn't seem like too tall a task, if you are not too busy meddling in science to promote a God that needs no promoting.
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I suspect that has been seriously neglected over the centuries by many so-called scientists who selfishly thought that God could use their feeble human knowledge to "make this a better world". Wow, you are putting down past and present brothers and sisters in Christ and calling them selfish, just because they wish to study and research that which comprises this great universe and it's inhabitants? Are you sure that is what God wants from you?
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Indeed, the whole concept chills my soul! Thanks for reminding me, Aristocrat, that God has made foolish the wisdom of this world - 1 Cor 1:20.
You needed reminding. You seem to think you are very wise about the world. That should be a warning to you.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 7:01:25 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7784
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Churches are not charitable organizations! They are places of worship and religious instruction. If they never participated in any charitable work, they would still be tax exempt.
That is to avoid undue entanglement from the government in religious affairs.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 7:02:53 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7784
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Somebody has to pay for that free ride, and that somebody is the other taxpayers. We are forced to pay for churches.
Well, obviously not - if churches didn't exist at all, taxes wouldn't be any lower.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Scientific Challenges to Christianity. - 7/13/2008 7:13:27 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7784
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
No one is ever "forced" to pay for churches. They get a free ride in our society.
Exactly my point - we are forced to pay for schools which are tax exempt and also get a free ride, and often teach things contrary to the beliefs of those who own the schools - the taxpayers. So if I as a taxpaer, am forced to pay for things I don't believe in and don't want my children subjected to, then I think that their should be tax funds available for the religious education of those who choose to send their children to religious schools.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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