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Is slavery wrong? - 7/13/2008 8:29:48 AM
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Little_1
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According to the Bible - what do you believe about slavery?
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/13/2008 12:11:20 PM
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mattyd00d
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I think there is a lot of confusion. This is because of the fact that we think it is wrong but in the bible there are a lot of verses about slaves being submissive etc.
I think we need to look at the bigger picture. The romans would have treated slave worse than normal citizens. To normal citizens slaves were more like butlers as they were treated quite well compared to roman slaves.
Although the bible was written for everyone when it was first writteb it was for the public mainly using there average language. So we presume that it means the butler like slaves should treat there masters with respect rather than roman slaves.
I think that we shouldn't have slaves as it says in the bible not exactly but we should help each other. Which means we should basiclly be each others butler slaves. If you know what i mean.
Sorry if it is not writtenvery well and is hard to understand.
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/13/2008 1:38:40 PM
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Little_1
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Bible Gateway link re: bondservants
I heard a preacher say that God does not condemn slavery but He does not condone it either! God sets out clear guidance regarding how servants/slaves/bondservatns were to be treated. In a right relationship between slave and master - slaves were well protected, cared for and treated in love and with respect so much so that some did not want to leave their master's households when given the opportunity.
Slavery by today's standards has no comparison with Biblical guidelines. In this century - people (many children) are kidnapped, raped, forced into all sorts of situations and lifestyles which are degrading.
Would God condemn such treatment of the innocents - definately "YES!" This is not the type of slavery which God neither condemns nor condones in the Bible. Such treatment goes against God's Word and is an abomination.
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/13/2008 3:15:56 PM
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fiat_lux
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quote:
I heard a preacher say that God does not condemn slavery but He does not condone it either! God sets out clear guidance regarding how servants/slaves/bondservatns were to be treated. In a right relationship between slave and master - slaves were well protected, cared for and treated in love and with respect so much so that some did not want to leave their master's households when given the opportunity.
The Old Testament law spelled out clear multilayered protections for Hebrews who were servants, including an opportunity for emancipation. Its protections for foreign captured slaves were much less specific. Foreign slaves could be kept for life, but many of the other protections (i.e. you cannot abuse and kill your servants) applied to them as well, as I recall correctly. Slaves also did not have the full protection of a normal person - you could, just for example, beat a slave to within an inch of their life, and would not be punished for their death provided they survived at least a couple of days. Female slaves also had less protection than male slaves.
The degree of detail in the OT law suggests that there were a large number of servants and slaves in a variety of conditions in Israelite society.
The picture in the New Testament, I believe, is somewhat different. Paul was not interested in preaching broad social revolution, but personal revolution in Christ; for this reason he argued that slaves should be prepared to continue to submit to their masters and so on. At the same time, he argued (Galatians 3:28) that slave and free people were equal in Christ. I would argue that this verse, coupled with the assumption that servants are people too and therefore we are called to love them as our neighbors, means we can confidently say that the sort of relationship we now call slavery is extremely unequal and unjust.
The issue of how to deal with Christian slaves and slaveowners was directly taken up in Paul's letter to Philemon. Philemon had a slave named Onesimus, who had escaped and later became a Christian under Paul's guidance. In Philemon, Paul writes that he is sending Onesimus back to his master - something, incidentally, which the OT law said he did not have to do with an escaped slave. However, Paul wrote to Philemon, he was doing so because of an expectation: that Philemon realize that Onesimus was not a slave but a brother in Christ and should be treated accordingly. Paul even seems to imply that he believes he has the authority to order Philemon to treat Onesimus appropriately, but wants to give Philemon the chance to do so voluntarily instead.
There's no clear-cut statement in either testament saying that slavery is abolished or forbidden, but I believe the testimony in Philemon allows us to argue that slavery is not compatible with Christian love.
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/14/2008 6:51:24 AM
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Doghouse
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Slavery is clearly wrong - I can't believe I am reading some of the posts above on a Christian website, for Pete's sake...
- Slavery denies the slave proper recompense for his/her work for the slaveholder. If you believe that "slaves" hang around for the room and board provided by the slaveholder, then just take the chains off, call them "employees" and see who sticks around, and who terminates that employment relationship, if they are truly free to do so.
- Slavery denies humans their identity. In engaging in slavery, you have one group of people oppressing another, often at the expense of the oppressed people's cultural and social identity. The posts above are replete with references to slaves as something other than brothers - almost as possessions, pets, tools; anything but another human being.
- Slavery oppresses God-given freewill in the slave. Who is any man to take away that which God has given to all men? I mean - legalities aside (some will to kill others, but this is not allowed due to justice), who is any man to enslave another and to shackle and bind another to a forced existence for the interests of the en-slaver?
- In all of this, there is an underlying injustice that the slaveholders are perpetrating on the slaves. And injustice is the root of sin, in case you don't understand what sin is.
Again...I am just sitting here in disbelief.
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When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/14/2008 9:56:36 AM
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fiat_lux
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quote:
Slavery is clearly wrong
I agree, but the original post asked (I think) for a clear Biblically based position, and I have to acknowledge that I don't really have one given all the statements in the Bible which appear to at least implicitly accept slavery.
That said, you've given some of the main problems in my mind caused by slavery. Ultimately, forcing perpetual servanthood on other human beings is in my opinion something that cannot be compatible with loving them as we love ourselves.
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/14/2008 10:21:47 AM
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phreddy
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When thinking about slavery in Biblical times, it is important to remember that life was very different than it is today. There was no such thing a soiial security or welfare. When people did not have the resources to feed and house themselves or their families, slavery was the fallback position. It was a necessary insitution of the times. The OT gave clear rules to believers on how they should treat their slaves including the opportunity for emancipation.
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/14/2008 12:25:45 PM
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fiat_lux
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quote:
When thinking about slavery in Biblical times, it is important to remember that life was very different than it is today. There was no such thing a soiial security or welfare. When people did not have the resources to feed and house themselves or their families, slavery was the fallback position. It was a necessary insitution of the times. The OT gave clear rules to believers on how they should treat their slaves including the opportunity for emancipation.
I think that's partly true. The protetions and opportunities for foreign slaves, like those captured in war, were limited and separated from those applied to Hebrew-born servants.
That said, I think we also underestimate what I guess could be called the welfare situation of Israelite society, at least the ideal society defined in the Law by God. There were substantial protections for the poor built into the law which hopefully would prevent them from having to consider slavery as a fallback position, too. Some of these protections go well beyond what we have today.
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/15/2008 2:31:10 AM
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Giulia
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I too can't believe i am hearing this. Clearly we've grown and evolved enough to not stand for such barbaric behaviour. Although in some parts of the world and as we speak young children are being locked up and used as slaves so that we Westerners can have chocolate and coffee. Sometimes even shoes and clothing.
I doubt whether God says these poor dear children should be submitting to a monster. In fact many revolution has happened when a despotic dictator has been challenged and overtaken and clearly it was not against God. Luther was not against God, neither Luther King. Joan of Arc wasn't and neither were many others who challenged the stance the church was taking. Some bibal scholars may have said they were rebellious and not respecting God's ordained structure of authority. However good and progress was born out of these conflicts.
These retarded chicks who are locking themselves up naked in protest of KFC, should check out their nearest coffee field or chocolate field, of which they probably partake. then they would have reason to lock themselves up in cages like total gooses. Chicken are for food, people are for God and have a calling to the divine. Geez these chicks, i tell you. I thought the likes of these retarded women would be worldly enough to know these things. Just shows you how much credit i give people.
Yes there are slaves today and sadly we contribute because we are consumers who don't have much regard or respect for God's creation. I don't need to have proof to drive this home. The proof is in the atmosphere. God does not will that anyone should be a slave. The refering to slaves was because they were still prevalant in that culture. People have shed their blood for our freedom and we have progressed.
< Message edited by Giulia -- 7/15/2008 2:41:41 AM >
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/15/2008 7:59:01 AM
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flare
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i am only assuming here that you are referring to the concept of slavery as referred to in the bible. when we read about how it was carried out within the hebrew society, we see it as very merciful. it was a way of taking care of a debt that one had no other way to pay back. there were strict rules on how the slave was treated and for how long he could be kept.
certainly there was no concept of 'owning' a person which is how we think of slavery today which is horribly wrong.
besides all that, everything in the old testament is a 'type or a shadow' and this concept is no different as a christian is a slave to Jesus Christ. "you are not your own, you were bought with a price", as paul spoke to the corinthians and to the ephesians, "not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart."
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/15/2008 12:32:35 PM
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abraxas
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Giulia, I agree with much of what you write--the consumer-to-slave chain seems to me to be largely ignored, and it's really a serious moral issue. (After all, how can my little purchase possibly be contributing to that?....)
Dunno much about the KFC chicks, but consider that some people have compassion for animals, and it is true that much of the animals raised to feed us are raised in miserable conditions. Deplorably miserable in some cases. Are people who protest that supposed to wait until everything is okay with the human population, and THEN start focusing on the lesser creatures? I don't think it needs to work that way. Compassion is compassion and it can burn the candle from both ends, so to speak, but in a good way!
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/15/2008 1:16:56 PM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phreddy
When thinking about slavery in Biblical times, it is important to remember that life was very different than it is today. There was no such thing a soiial security or welfare. When people did not have the resources to feed and house themselves or their families, slavery was the fallback position. It was a necessary insitution of the times. The OT gave clear rules to believers on how they should treat their slaves including the opportunity for emancipation.
I agree with what you've said.
The problem with slavery is that even if you put the word "Biblical" in front of it, people still get a negative mental image. Most people are far more likely to think of Kunta Kinte than they are of Ophelius.
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/15/2008 5:13:17 PM
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earthless
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Has anyone, at all, touched upon the fact that the slavery spoken of and depicted in the Bible is NOTHING like the slavery you're all probably envisioning from the U.S. 1800's, etc...?
The slavery spoken of in Scripture is more akin to the unions of the 1980's (good pay, job security, protection, benefits, etc..) than the southern American style black slavery.
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/15/2008 5:29:27 PM
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Roberta_
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earthless- that's a little of what I was getting at.
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/15/2008 8:32:41 PM
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abraxas
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Could employers beat an employee to within an inch of their life? Were employee's wives and children property of the employer, and if the employee wanted to remain with them he had to become employee for life?
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/15/2008 8:54:47 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Could employers beat an employee to within an inch of their life? Were employee's wives and children property of the employer, and if the employee wanted to remain with them he had to become employee for life?
Are you talking about Scriptural mandates or man-made mandates?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/15/2008 9:32:47 PM
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fiat_lux
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quote:
Are you talking about Scriptural mandates or man-made mandates?
Those sound like Old Testament mandates to me.
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/16/2008 1:48:34 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Could employers beat an employee to within an inch of their life? Were employee's wives and children property of the employer, and if the employee wanted to remain with them he had to become employee for life?
Are you talking about Scriptural mandates or man-made mandates?
Both, if one is akin to the other. 
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/16/2008 9:22:23 AM
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abraxas
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Erm...
The OT permitted Israelite slaveholders to beat their slaves to within an inch of their lives. It permitted slaveholders to retain as their possession the wives and children of male Israelite slaves (e.g. debt slaves) upon their release, so that if the freed slave wished to remain with his wives/children he could voluntarily become slave for life. Non-Israelite slaves were slaves for life. (So yes I guess there was job security...  ) It just isn't true that there is much to compare OT slavery to unions of the 1980s.
And you're right I've never worked for the government. (If I'm who you were talking about.)
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/17/2008 9:18:51 AM
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abraxas
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I've never done a taste test but I have wondered.... Conceptually it's far more delicious. "I will not eat misery." --Alice Walker
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/17/2008 9:52:19 AM
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abraxas
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Back to slavery, we see in the OT that God countenanced slavery, including
--beating a slave -- either to within an inch of life or actually to death, not sure what "as long as he tarries a day or two" means
--keeping a released debt-slave's wife and children
--and taking slaves for life from the people of the surrounding nations.
Today we generally consider all these things morally abhorrant. What can we conclude?
--Times were different then
--Inspired by God or not, some things in the Bible have man all over them
--We're wrong, those things are not morally abhorrant
--?
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/17/2008 10:49:12 AM
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fiat_lux
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quote:
--beating a slave -- either to within an inch of life or actually to death, not sure what "as long as he tarries a day or two" means
Tarries = survives. i.e. you can beat the slave but you can't beat them so hard you kill them outright.
quote:
Today we generally consider all these things morally abhorrant. What can we conclude?
--Times were different then
--Inspired by God or not, some things in the Bible have man all over them
--We're wrong, those things are not morally abhorrant
--?
Regardless of the status under the Law, I think we could still argue that they're morally abhorrent under the new covenant.
Moreover, while I know some people have concluded from this that these parts of the Bible weren't inspired by God, I think you could also argue that the Bible is placing limits on common practices of the times. Today, we choose to draw even stricter limits, which we would say follow from loving others as ourselves and treating them as we would have them treat us. In this way we're doing with slavery what Jesus did with various other issues in the Sermon on the Mount - take an Old Testament principle (e.g. adultery) and then expand it (e.g. adultery includes lust as well as action).
The same is true of polygamy. The Law permits polygamy - a common practice - but puts limits on it. Today, we put an even stricter limit on it - i.e. no polygamy.
Furthermore, theologically, the unprotected slaves were generally those who were foreigners captured or bought by Israel. Greater protections were given to Israelite-born servants. Today we don't draw the distinction between Israel and not-Israel -- under the new covenant our neighbours include those who are not Israelites. So the stricter moral code would have to apply to our dealings with everyone.
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RE: Is slavery wrong? - 7/17/2008 11:56:32 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
Moreover, while I know some people have concluded from this that these parts of the Bible weren't inspired by God, I think you could also argue that the Bible is placing limits on common practices of the times. Today, we choose to draw even stricter limits, which we would say follow from loving others as ourselves and treating them as we would have them treat us. In this way we're doing with slavery what Jesus did with various other issues in the Sermon on the Mount - take an Old Testament principle (e.g. adultery) and then expand it (e.g. adultery includes lust as well as action).
The same is true of polygamy. The Law permits polygamy - a common practice - but puts limits on it. Today, we put an even stricter limit on it - i.e. no polygamy.
Yeah that's a reasonable take. Would you say that it's somewhat like the first option I listed (times were different then), perhaps with an expansion on what that means?
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