What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (Full Version)

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galadriel2 -> What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/13/2008 11:51:02 AM)

What do people think is really going on in Iraq and Afghanistan? This is necessary to understand somewhat if we will be able to make intelligent decisions about what to do in each situation. I guess people can post on the 'War in Iraq' thread with regards to Iraq, but we don't really have a thread about Afghanistan. George Will was saying today on ABC that there were more American deaths in Afghanistan this week than in Iraq. This is good in that it means deaths are down in Iraq, but up in Afghanistan. What are Biblical principles that we can understand and rightly apply to Afghanistan and Iraq?

One fact I am thinking of is that most are Muslim in these countries and therefore are not saved. How much should this effect the way we deal with them and how should it effect it? Any verses that apply? Which ones and how?

God bless everyone,
Galadriel2



galadriel2 -> RE: What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/13/2008 7:33:08 PM)

For a civilian response I am thinking we have The Great Commission: "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen.' (Matt. 28:18-20) 'For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.' (Eph. 5:8-10)

For a government response to Afghanistan and Iraq I can find three principles:

1) Punish evil-doers - 'For he (government) is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil' (Rom. 13:4b)

2) To provide an environment that allows for people to 'lead...quiet and peaceable [lives] in all godliness and reverence' (1 Tim. 2:2b)

3) And to judge righteously, pleading the cause of the poor, needy, and speechless: 'Open your mouth for the speechless, in the cause of all who are appointed to die. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.' (Pro. 31:8,9)

I understand the principles but not having access to many details on the ground in these countries it is difficult to see how they should be applied.

God bless,
Galadriel2



rlj -> RE: What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/13/2008 11:47:09 PM)

Some comments:

1)Who is to say who is the evil-doer? Why are the entire people of Iraq being punished for Saddam? What about punishment for us in the case of Blackwater for example? Or special judgements for Abu Ghraib? I'm not judging anyone besides Saddam as an evil doer.

2)Those people don't want to lead lives "in godliness and reverence". They are Muslim they have their own traditions, customs and codes to live by that don't include our Judeo-Christian / Western mores.

3)Ok so how come Blackwater is responsible for over 20 alleged deaths, the Iraqi government has asked, pleaded, demanded and begged that they be removed but not only are they not removed, not only do they get an extension BUT there is absolutely no legal recourse for any Iraqi to take any of them to court to get any justice or damages because we decided that all of the cold blooded murdering cowards we hired for security can kill whoever they want, whenever they want with complete immunity? I guess since they're immune none of this happened. I should probably delete this part of my post.



TaoPoohBear -> RE: What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/14/2008 11:51:42 AM)

How's this?

“Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”
And He spoke a parable to them: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother’s eye. Luke 6:37-42


The world allowed us our righteous anger at the Taliban, not so our attack on Iraq.
Our enemies have been given the chance to take the moral high ground, undeserved or not.



galadriel2 -> RE: What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/14/2008 1:43:54 PM)

Thanks Roger and TaoPoohBear (love the name) for your responses.

...Roger...I didn't really have Blackwater in mind when I put the post up - just the whole situation in both Iraq and Afghanistan - Muslims, those wanting a representative form of government, persecuted Christians, those creating terror in other's lives, those wanting a Caliphate, Blackwater too, the internal as well as the international politics, etc.. We determine who is the 'evil-doer' according to the word of God. If you can't determine who are the evil-doers then why does God hold government responsible for punishing them? He doesn't ask people to do something that they have no ability to do. We have the ability, through the Word, to be discerning, in other words. As far as Blackwater goes - they were civilians who acted as evil-doers in the cases that we have been made aware of by the press. They should be punished. I think our government is making a mistake in contracting out its jobs to the private sector. I posted this elsewhere, but part of Madison's reasoning behind a representative form of government was that people tended to be of a better quality and feel a greater responsibility towards the people they are voted in to represent if they are forced to go through the refining and weeding process of having to gather votes. Then for the positions in government that they appoint people to we can expect them to appoint people of like quality. This refining and weeding process doesn't take place when you contract out traditional government roles. As a result the contractors tend to not feel the same level of responsibility for their actions and won't tend to feel that they represent American citizens the way elected and appointed government officials do. We should keep traditional government roles and jobs as such.

...PoohBear...those are really good verses to consider as principles in dealing with people. It is important to keep in mind the difference between condemning and judging a person - which is writing them off - and being discerning - an ability to distinguish between truth and error and right and wrong and good and bad.

Personally, I think it is important to move Iraqis toward a more Christian paradigm. I think going door-to-door and talking with people about the Lord would be a good place to start. At one point I thought that billboards put up with references to what the Apostles and Prophets had said in Bible verses would be good. They respect the Apostles and Prophets - in theory anyway. These could be ways to get the Iraqis into a worldview that matches a representative form of government more and a pluralistic society more and that extends grace and teaching to those who oppose our views - that sees being made in the image of God sufficient reason to give a person equal rights - not being a certain religion and/or sect of a religion.

As far as our government and the Iraqi government - they had better be good at identifying the real bad guys. A bad guy violates the Ten Commandments. The first several commandments deal with our relationship to God. The last several deal with our relationship to man. Government deals with justice - man's fair treatment of his fellow man. The latter commandments determine who is the bad guy in relationship to God and man. Punishments should be wise and just. The OT law gives us good ideas to refer to for just laws, but they aren't something we have to do. We live under the New Covenant now. There are no theocracies as ancient Israel was under the Old Covenant.

...Also...there are different Iraqis saying different things. Some want the U.S. to leave. Some want us to stay. If the concensus is for us to leave then we should leave, it seems to me. The surge seemed to really bring down the violence. We should probably do the same thing in Afghanistan. I think it would be best to leave each country once there is a pretty good ability in their governments to act on the three principles of governance I put up in the 2nd post.

God bless abundantly,
Galadriel2



galadriel2 -> RE: What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/14/2008 2:16:10 PM)

...I just read an article of an interview that Mr. Chomsky had with Aljazeerah. He was saying how an Arab-speaking reporter who has been in Iraq for 5 or 6 years now is saying how Iraq has been a disaster. Al-Maliki is lined up with Iran more than anyone and no one likes Muqtada al-Sadr (sp?) - neither the U.S. nor Iran - because he is independent....

...People had better get a hold on the concept that people are to be given equal treatment and rights on the basis of them being made in the image of God or we will continue to have a mess.

Mr. Chomsky downplayed the success of the surge as well. No one can dispute that the violence is down significantly, though. I think what Mr. Chomsky is saying is that we need a paradigm shift in Iraq. I hope I am not putting words into his mouth - but I with this premise whole-heartedly.

God bless in Christ, by and through Christ,
Galadriel2



rlj -> RE: What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/14/2008 3:08:36 PM)

quote:

Personally, I think it is important to move Iraqis toward a more Christian paradigm.


You are going a more theological route with this than I had expected. Sadly as you pointed out that pointing Iraq in a Shiite direction which had to happen by removing Saddam has made it more dangerous for christians than it was before the invasion. They weren't persecuted to the extent they are now. I know there have been a few articles buried deep in the other thread about this.

quote:

I think going door-to-door and talking with people about the Lord would be a good place to start. At one point I thought that billboards put up with references to what the Apostles and Prophets had said in Bible verses would be good.


The problem is who? The military cannot have anything to do with anything that advances any "religion".

quote:

As far as our government and the Iraqi government - they had better be good at identifying the real bad guys. A bad guy violates the Ten Commandments.


That's too simple. Our government is secular their government is secular but leaning toward Shiite. If anything I would think that the Shiite government would lean more towards the 10 Commandments than ours. For example their swift punishment, strict laws against thieving and adultery come to my mind.



TaoPoohBear -> RE: What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/14/2008 6:35:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: galadriel2

Thanks Roger and TaoPoohBear (love the name) for your responses.

...PoohBear...those are really good verses to consider as principles in dealing with people. It is important to keep in mind the difference between condemning and judging a person - which is writing them off - and being discerning - an ability to distinguish between truth and error and right and wrong and good and bad.

If the concensus is for us to leave then we should leave, it seems to me. The surge seemed to really bring down the violence. We should probably do the same thing in Afghanistan. I think it would be best to leave each country once there is a pretty good ability in their governments to act on the three principles of governance I put up in the 2nd post.


Thanx![:)] (my intro explains it, by the way)

One of the main reasons for the attack & occupation of Iraq seems to come down to Bush's personal hatred for Saddam Hussein; Not going to get into all the documentation right now (But I Can If Challenged![:D]).
It's why I chose that quote.

It would be very unwise to leave Afghanistan anytime soon. If anything, U.S. military resources should probably be devoted into that theater; And darn quick.
History may very well write that Bush's personal feelings triumphed reason, ego over wisdom if you will, and had we devoted all our military resources to Afghanistan the situation in the entire middle-east would be much more stable today.



galadriel2 -> RE: What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/15/2008 5:16:04 AM)

Thanks again for the responses!

...Roger...as far as who would go door-to-door - I think it would be best if it was Arab believers - Iraqis especially - but it is dangerous to do that - it appears.

I think the 10 Commandments are simple and it is true and foundational for discerning a 'bad guy'. The difficulty comes with applying the commandments accurately - I think.

As far as the Muslims applying the 10 Commandments better than we - I think that this is a common misconception of Islam. The morality is actually much lower. For example, it is much easier to where a head scarf and cover most of your body than to actually have a 'meek and quiet spirit' which is what the clothing is to signify. Islamic morality is superficial and exterior only with many ways to get around God's law.

God bless you abundantly,
Galadriel2



galadriel2 -> RE: What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/15/2008 4:28:52 PM)

I think Sun Tzu in his book 'The Art of War' is right when he says that if we know our enemy and ourselves we don't have to fear the outcome of any battle - we will win every time.

God bless,
Galadriel2



rlj -> RE: What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/15/2008 7:57:16 PM)

I always like von Moltke's "No plan ever survived contact with the enemy". ; )



galadriel2 -> RE: What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/15/2008 9:40:51 PM)

Yeah, the Moltke quote is a good one....We mustn't know ourselves or our enemies very well.

God bless abundantly,
Galadriel2



galadriel2 -> RE: What's Really Going on in Iraq and Afghanistan (7/17/2008 6:36:50 AM)

In a nutshell, what is really happening in Iraq and Afghanistan is that the elite in the West are trying to build democracies without the Gospel because in their contempt for Christ and His word they reject the obvious truth that it is Christianity that has made the West what it is as opposed to what Muslim countries have been. The degree to which Muslims accept Christianity into their worldview will be the degree to which their 'democracies' succeed. The elite in the West have ridden on the blessings of the Gospel while at the same time trying to destroy the Gospel - and of course there go the blessings with it. The solution is to pray to the Lord of the harvest that He would send forth laborers - not elite - but laborers for Him.

God bless,
Galadriel2



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