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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/14/2008 5:50:27 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I am not capable of judging another's heart, and to judge someone based on their behavior is folly, as anyone can pretend to be anything.
Is one capable of judging their own heart base on the those who thought they were going to Heaven in Matthew 7, but were actually hell bound.
It seems that they should have judged themselve by the iniquity they were commiting; biecause Christ surely judged them on that criteria.
As He wull judge you and me.
Jesue said commiting iniquity was a deal killer for those who think they are save; and I foe one think we need to pay attention.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This really seems to important to gloss over without consideration as eternal life in Heaven is at stake.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/14/2008 6:10:07 PM
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GroupW
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Nice post. I love to combine this with Matthew 25. Matthew 25 reads as almost as if those who expected to be in heaven weren't, while those who didn't expect to be there were.
It's good for me to read that every once in a while as a personal gut-check.
BT
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/14/2008 6:48:48 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1124
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I am not capable of judging another's heart, and to judge someone based on their behavior is folly, as anyone can pretend to be anything.
Is one capable of judging their own heart base on the those who thought they were going to Heaven in Matthew 7, but were actually hell bound.
It seems that they should have judged themselve by the iniquity they were commiting; biecause Christ surely judged them on that criteria.
As He wull judge you and me.
Jesue said commiting iniquity was a deal killer for those who think they are save; and I foe one think we need to pay attention.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This really seems to important to gloss over without consideration as eternal life in Heaven is at stake.
Thanks
RC
RC, God has already judged my sins and yours, and the verdict was guilty, and the sentence was death. Thank God Jesus interceded on my behalf, and yours, and provided what we could never provide for ourselves...propitiation of our sins...by His one sacrifice on the cross.
Hebrews 10:14
"...because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."
And having made us perfect by that one sacrifice, He could then offer us the one thing we truly need, even more than forgiveness...and that is life...because the wages of sin is death, and the only thing a dead person needs is life.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
To mix old covenant theology with new covenant theology is Galatianism, and God has much to say about those who insist on going in that direction. And none of it is good.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 3:29:37 AM
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TheBibleTRUTH
Posts: 94
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
I wonder about the verses in Heb. 6:4-6; I don't have the biblical training to understand it (and it's one of those passages that is controversial). Maybe someone here can shed some light on it.
What is OSAS?
Hebrews 6:4-6, What a crunchy bit of scripture, certainly not one that is easy to understand or ascertain it's meaning. But I will endeavor to explain it clearly so that you might understand it.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Those alone don't really make a lot of sense, and honestly doesn't really tie well into God's word until you fully understand what it means. If God willed that all men be saved it seems really weird that it would be impossible for people to come back to God if they don't accept the message the first time they hear it. So lets use a lesson in understanding Bible scripture by going to the context of these verses. In this case lets start in Hebrews 6:1-2.
Hebrews 6:1-2
1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Now in the first verse it's important to note the word perfection. Because it says "let us go on unto perfection," the word perfection can mean one of two things; either our holy spirit, or us being perfect in heaven. The only perfect thing on Earth right now is our holy spirit, the only perfect thing that we have in store for us in the future is heaven.
The first part of this verse rules out the holy spirit because it starts off by saying, "therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,." One of those principles has to do with the holy spirit so you can rule it out. You can also rule it out because of verse 2 which states, "of the doctrine of baptisms." Baptism by water is how Christ got his holy spirit, and we get ours by way of believing in Christ (Romans 10:9-10).
So the context of this word perfect must mean and refer to heaven.
So no what does this mean for the 2 verses in that context. Well if you take into account the doctrine of our administration you can see that this is discounting the doctrine of the now. Our doctrine right now consists of the doctrine of Christ, the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on hands. The foundation of repentance from dead works is talking about how our doctrine was founded on the law of the old testament. Which if you read Galatians you can see are dead works. This means that he is referring to the perfectness of what has not come, the perfect heaven.
The resurrection of the dead is what precedes us being with God for eternity in heaven. So the focus has to be about heaven. There is something about verse two which I don't understand, and that is when it says eternal judgment. But I do not need to understand this to ascertain the meaning of these scriptures. Sometimes you aren't mature enough or don't have enough Biblical understanding for God to teach you. But that's OK! We still have a long way to go with God's word! Anyway, lets go back to Hebrews 6:4-6.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Now if you put this in the context of the end times it lines up with the rest of the Word of God. This is talking about people who were enlightened about the word, knew about eternal life, saw manifestations of the holy spirit (miracles, healing, tongues, etc), but NEVER BELIEVED and NEVER GOT BORN AGAIN. When they are eternally judged it will be pretty bad for them and they will put Christ to shame. It bugged me to no end when I read these scripture because of the verses on how our loving God wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Why would he turn his back on them the first time they dabbled in the Bible, but didn't believe it.
Hebrews 6:7-8
7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, recieveth blessing from God:
8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
This further shows that the ultimate judgment for those who never believe will be rejection and burning.
This is a pretty hard concept to grasp. What really nailed it to me was that how many times throughout my childhood I went to church I learned about the bible, participated, had fun, but never believed. This went on for at least 10 years until I moved out on my own. Once my parents stopped making me go to church I did my own thing for 4 years when, by God's grace, I came back and got born again. But my point is that I heard the word, I was enlightened, I tasted the heavenly gift, and I was made a partaker of the holy spirit. BUT I NEVER BELIEVED. And because I'm now born again, it certainly cannot be impossible for people to come back to God. I am just one of the many living examples to this. God's love for us would never sell us that short.
It has to be about the end times when people who reject the holy spirit and are not born again don't make it to heaven. I hope this helps.
God bless!
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 10:29:51 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5668
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
RC, God has already judged my sins and yours, and the verdict was guilty, and the sentence was death. Thank God Jesus interceded on my behalf, and yours, and provided what we could never provide for ourselves...propitiation of our sins...by His one sacrifice on the cross.
Hebrews 10:14
"...because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."
And having made us perfect by that one sacrifice, He could then offer us the one thing we truly need, even more than forgiveness...and that is life...because the wages of sin is death, and the only thing a dead person needs is life.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
To mix old covenant theology with new covenant theology is Galatianism, and God has much to say about those who insist on going in that direction. And none of it is good.
So you are saqying that it matters not whether a believer commits sin, lives in sin, or not?
John seems to disagree with you.
(1Jn 3:6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
(1Jn 3:7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Jesus saiys;
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
But are you saying that a person can not be obedient to the Word of God and still be a Believer?
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 10:34:19 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1124
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
But are you saying that a person can not be obedient to the Word of God and still be a Believer?
Thsnks
RC
I am saying that a believer is one who is indwelt by the living Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And that God accepts the believer not because of what they do not do, but because of who they are and whose they are.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 10:52:18 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5668
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I am saying that a believer is one who is indwelt by the living Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And that God accepts the believer not because of what they do not do, but because of who they are and whose they are.
And per chance that Believer lives a life of total decadence then did that Believer loose their faith?
Or are you saying that that particular "Believer" was never a Believer in the first place?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 10:58:13 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4279
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I am saying that a believer is one who is indwelt by the living Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And that God accepts the believer not because of what they do not do, but because of who they are and whose they are.
And per chance that Believer lives a life of total decadence then did that Believer loose their faith?
Or are you saying that that particular "Believer" was never a Believer in the first place?
Thanks
RC
That's the question I would be asking this person for sure. And then sticking around to hear the answer to find out if they understand the whole gospel. If not...then a discipling moment is available.
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 11:16:48 AM
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Godddy
Posts: 68
Joined: 5/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: kyl
While in the chat rooms yesterday I repeatedly heard people say that had lost their faith.
Is this possible?
I have always thought of faith as being God given.
That we are all given a measure of faith,
That the more you use your faith the stronger your faith becomes because your relationship and trust in the Lord continuly grows.
I understand that we can get weary,tired,rebellious,or fall flat on our face,feel rejected,hurt,abandoned
But the Lord supplies us enough faith to see us through.
Is not the measure of faith we are given ENOUGH to see us through?
IS THIS JUST GETTING TO BE A COMMON THING TO SAY WHEN YOUR FEELING DOWN AND OUT?
I LOST MY FAITH!
Romans 12For by the grace given me I say to everyone of you:Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought,but rather think of yourself with sober judgement,in accordance with the meausure of faith God has given you.
Timothy 19 having good faith and a good conscience,Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked thier faith.
In the verse in Timothy it said you can shipwreck your faith
If I am reading this right it is your own undoing that causes this.
So you didnt lose it you let it go or didnt use it.
Looking forward to hear some opinions
Please post scriptures on this subject
Our faith, as Christians, is in Christ. He is the object of our faith. Mature faith is centered on the fullness of Christ, on His sufficiency. And this faith is the faith that unifies us in The Body.
Ephesians 4:13
"until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ"
Immature faith focuses on ourselves, and results in faith that is never sure, never certain, and that is subject to the all kinds of false teaching...
Ephesians 4:14
"Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful schemes."
Thinking too highly of ourselves is faith in ourselves and in our own abilities, rather than faith in Christ and His sufficiency. Shipwrecked faith is not lost faith, it is misplaced faith.
Peace
Eph 4-14 Wonderful verse, thank you.
God knows who His elected are, Is He not God, does He not measure out our faith.
If we were all perfect, Jesus won't of had to die. we are going to fall have failures, have trials and tribulation, but these things only service to strengthen our faith.
The Bible speaks of a great falling away of the church, The Spiritual church of Christ. Our faith is in Christ, we are to follow after Him follow His example.
Proverbs 3:5,6,7, Trust in the Lord with all your heart lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and he will make your path straight.
 God Bless
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 11:46:46 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5668
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godddy
The Bible speaks of a great falling away of the church, The Spiritual church of Christ. Our faith is in Christ, we are to follow after Him follow His example.
Then if there is a great falling away of the Churc; then you do see some losing thier faith (those that fall away).
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 11:54:22 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4279
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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Did someone already mention these in regards to backsliding, losing faith, etc.? We just had a sobering discussion on these last night.
1 Cor 5:4-5 (speaking to the sexual immorality in the church)
4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
1 Tim 1:18-20
18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
_____________________________
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 12:45:42 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1124
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I am saying that a believer is one who is indwelt by the living Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And that God accepts the believer not because of what they do not do, but because of who they are and whose they are.
And per chance that Believer lives a life of total decadence then did that Believer loose their faith?
Or are you saying that that particular "Believer" was never a Believer in the first place?
Thanks
RC
I am not able to judge another's heart. We look on the external, God looks on the inside.
If someone says they are a Christian and is living in total decadence the only thing I could say for sure is that they most definitely are not being led by the Spirit. They have bought a lie, and they need the truth. As we all do. To be led by the Spirit, or not, is a choice we all must make in every situation we confront.
There are many who are doing what looks righteous and upstanding, who are just as guilty of disregarding the leading of the Holy Spirit, as are those whose sin is obvious. And quite frankly, the former are a much bigger problem than the latter.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 2:11:02 PM
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faroukfarouk
Posts: 874
Joined: 4/16/2008
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There is a saying (which I think generally corresponds with what Hebrews and Jude describe as apostasy):
"Lord of all, or not at all".
_____________________________
Trust the Bible.
Trust the Lord.
Don't trust the appearance of things.
(I'm a guy. Some tattoo designs look nice, though...but I haven't worn my earrings lately. So, think the lady in the avatar is my sister?)
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 2:35:54 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5668
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I am not able to judge another's heart. We look on the external, God looks on the inside.
If someone says they are a Christian and is living in total decadence the only thing I could say for sure is that they most definitely are not being led by the Spirit. They have bought a lie, and they need the truth. As we all do. To be led by the Spirit, or not, is a choice we all must make in every situation we confront.
There are many who are doing what looks righteous and upstanding, who are just as guilty of disregarding the leading of the Holy Spirit, as are those whose sin is obvious. And quite frankly, the former are a much bigger problem than the latter.
That's real nice that you are not going to judge and all; but how do you know whom to celbrate with and whom to correct;
(Gal 6:1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
(Gal 6:2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
It seems that your post midernistic view of taking someone at their word and not by their fruits would lead you to ignore the command of the New Testament and the law of Christ to restore those who are at fault.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 2:36:31 PM
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faroukfarouk
Posts: 874
Joined: 4/16/2008
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The Lord Jesus said: "By their fruits ye shall know them".
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I am not able to judge another's heart. We look on the external, God looks on the inside.
If someone says they are a Christian and is living in total decadence the only thing I could say for sure is that they most definitely are not being led by the Spirit. They have bought a lie, and they need the truth. As we all do. To be led by the Spirit, or not, is a choice we all must make in every situation we confront.
There are many who are doing what looks righteous and upstanding, who are just as guilty of disregarding the leading of the Holy Spirit, as are those whose sin is obvious. And quite frankly, the former are a much bigger problem than the latter.
That's real nice that you are not going to judge and all; but how do you know whom to celbrate with and whom to correct;
(Gal 6:1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
(Gal 6:2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
It seems that your post midernistic view of taking someone at their word and not by their fruits would lead you to ignore the command of the New Testament and the law of Christ to restore those who are at fault.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Trust the Bible.
Trust the Lord.
Don't trust the appearance of things.
(I'm a guy. Some tattoo designs look nice, though...but I haven't worn my earrings lately. So, think the lady in the avatar is my sister?)
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 2:49:28 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
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This thread is uber confusing..
In what way is it NOT possible to lose faith?
In what state are atheists that used to be Christians? They still have faith in God, they just don't know it..? O_o
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 3:09:37 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1124
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I am not able to judge another's heart. We look on the external, God looks on the inside.
If someone says they are a Christian and is living in total decadence the only thing I could say for sure is that they most definitely are not being led by the Spirit. They have bought a lie, and they need the truth. As we all do. To be led by the Spirit, or not, is a choice we all must make in every situation we confront.
There are many who are doing what looks righteous and upstanding, who are just as guilty of disregarding the leading of the Holy Spirit, as are those whose sin is obvious. And quite frankly, the former are a much bigger problem than the latter.
That's real nice that you are not going to judge and all; but how do you know whom to celbrate with and whom to correct;
(Gal 6:1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
(Gal 6:2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
It seems that your post midernistic view of taking someone at their word and not by their fruits would lead you to ignore the command of the New Testament and the law of Christ to restore those who are at fault.
Thsnks
RC
Labels do not help RC. It is not that I am not going to judge, it is that I cannot, for I cannot see into a persons heart.
I have seen too many who have perfected the imitation of a branch. It is not a difficult thing to appear to be something one is not. As a child I was told to sit still and eat my peas. And I complied...outwardly. But, inside I was standing up, shaking my fist, and spitting those peas right out!
External compliance means nothing, without a changed heart to go along with it. And the heart is Gods territory.
It is the Truth that sets people free. I do not need to judge a persons heart in order to share the truth with them, to help restore them. If they are not truly saved, can the truth hurt them? Does Gods Word return void?
Are not hard, little, green, bitter baby apples...still apples? Are we called to be fruit inspectors or are we called to love?
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 3:15:50 PM
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faroukfarouk
Posts: 874
Joined: 4/16/2008
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Proverbs 3.5 speaks of trust in the Lord. The Lord sees our hearts, whether we trust Him. The Bible assures believers that He hears us.
So if we trust Him, we don't need to think about losing faith.
_____________________________
Trust the Bible.
Trust the Lord.
Don't trust the appearance of things.
(I'm a guy. Some tattoo designs look nice, though...but I haven't worn my earrings lately. So, think the lady in the avatar is my sister?)
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 3:47:32 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5668
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I am not able to judge another's heart. We look on the external, God looks on the inside.
If someone says they are a Christian and is living in total decadence the only thing I could say for sure is that they most definitely are not being led by the Spirit. They have bought a lie, and they need the truth. As we all do. To be led by the Spirit, or not, is a choice we all must make in every situation we confront.
There are many who are doing what looks righteous and upstanding, who are just as guilty of disregarding the leading of the Holy Spirit, as are those whose sin is obvious. And quite frankly, the former are a much bigger problem than the latter.
That's real nice that you are not going to judge and all; but how do you know whom to celbrate with and whom to correct;
(Gal 6:1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
(Gal 6:2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
It seems that your post midernistic view of taking someone at their word and not by their fruits would lead you to ignore the command of the New Testament and the law of Christ to restore those who are at fault.
Thsnks
RC
Labels do not help RC. It is not that I am not going to judge, it is that I cannot, for I cannot see into a persons heart.
I have seen too many who have perfected the imitation of a branch. It is not a difficult thing to appear to be something one is not. As a child I was told to sit still and eat my peas. And I complied...outwardly. But, inside I was standing up, shaking my fist, and spitting those peas right out!
External compliance means nothing, without a changed heart to go along with it. And the heart is Gods territory.
It is the Truth that sets people free. I do not need to judge a persons heart in order to share the truth with them, to help restore them. If they are not truly saved, can the truth hurt them? Does Gods Word return void?
Are not hard, little, green, bitter baby apples...still apples? Are we called to be fruit inspectors or are we called to love?
Peace
We are called to be obedient to the Word, of which your attitude ignores.
You will let folks be in error and not do as God instructs to correct them and lead them back because why? You don't want to offend them or what.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 3:50:58 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Are not hard, little, green, bitter baby apples...still apples? Are we called to be fruit inspectors or are we called to love?
This is a good point. We can't possibly judge someone just based on their fruits, because we do not have a complete picture. We are not with them 24-7, and see everything they go through, everybody they talk to, and everything they do.
If we see someone of faith living a lie, or doing something they shouldn't, we can point it out to them. If we see them sinning, we can point that out to them. But like URForgiven said, we can't see the heart, so we should not judge if someone is being true to their word.
That all being said, takes off from the OP, which is can you lose your faith. This of course, some say,depends on if faith was ever had. We can't know that, so we take someone at their word. If someone says I have lost my faith, I think that can be broken down into 2 categories.
1-Did you go through a traumatic event, and are questioning, or doubting your faith. If so, your faith is not lost, it is just being questioned, and tested. I think most if not all of us go through this.
2-Have you then turned from the faith you had. If you lived a life of a follower of Christ, and for some reason, did a complete 180. Have you lost your faith, or did you ever have it. I would say it is lost, maybe temporarily, or maybe for good.
My point is, if we are judging on fruits, then I would say, a lot of us must not have faith, because our fruit up to this point may be insignificant.
We confess with our mouth and believe with our hearts that Jesus Christ is Lord. The fruit will come, but may not be evident to all, at all times.
Another question to pose on this issue is....How do you define faith?
Is it just believing, as some may say to be true?
Or is it living your belief?
Maybe the question for someone who has lost their faith is not if they ever had faith, but what did they place their faith in? Jesus, or religion? The church you attend, or the reason for the church? One of these will lead you to true faith, one will lead to empty faith. Empty faith based on worldly things will at some point be lost, because it is empty.
I believe faith in Jesus will produce fruit, and I don't see how it is possible to lose faith in Him. That does not mean it can not happen, nor does it mean that if we don't see fruit, the person isn't producing it, so they must not have faith.
We don't always live the life we should, and it is not fair to judge someone based on what you see. JMHO.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 3:55:05 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
This thread is uber confusing..
In what way is it NOT possible to lose faith?
In what state are atheists that used to be Christians? They still have faith in God, they just don't know it..? O_o
There is one passage in the bible that has been sited as a “proof” for those who believe that a true child of God can lose their faith …
quote:
Hebrews 6:4-6 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
This verse is referring to apostasy: a total falling away from, and repudiation of having a real relationship with Christ. No true child of God ever apostatizes, though there are quite a few professors of the Christian religion have done so ... as have those who work in His service in various capacities.
In the words of H.B. Hole:
quote:
In verses 4 and 5 it is contemplated that those liable to fall away may have shared in privileges common to believers in those times, and that in no less than five ways. We may well ask if it is possible for anyone to share in this way without being truly converted; and this question may well be specially urgent as regards the third of the five. Can it be possible to be a partaker of the Holy Ghost" without being born again?
The answer to that question is … that it is quite possible. Only a true believer can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but all within the circle of Christian profession, whether truly converted or not, partake or share in the benefits of the presence of the Spirit. A man may be enlightened without being saved. He may taste the heavenly gift without receiving it. He may taste the good word of God without digesting it in his inward parts. He may share in "the powers of the world to come." (i.e. miraculous powers) without experiencing the real power of the world to come.
It is very possible to think you have faith and are a Christian, yet it the opposite is true. We have so many walking the halls of the church thinking they are saved … and they are not. Jesus says in Matthew:
quote:
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
I have two friends who started out their walks THINKING they were Christians and … but later found they did not have a relationship with Christ. One is the lady that led me to the Lord. She went to a Christian college, met her very strong Christian husband, married him, worked as a bible school teacher raising her three little children, and felt empty and exhausted. She was going through the motions without ever committing her life to Christ and came to the point she could not do it anymore … her prayer, “If this is what a Christian life is, I don’t want it … but if you’re really there … do something in me.” She soon after committed her life to Christ and everything changed. She tells there was a VERY noticeable difference. My old Pastor was pastoring his church for 10 years before he entered into a relationship with Christ … and it completely transformed his life.
So I have seen that it is very possible to believe you have … or had faith at one time, when in fact you didn’t … It is a supernatural experience … and once it REALLY happens … it’s for ever and ever.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 3:55:18 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1124
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I am not able to judge another's heart. We look on the external, God looks on the inside.
If someone says they are a Christian and is living in total decadence the only thing I could say for sure is that they most definitely are not being led by the Spirit. They have bought a lie, and they need the truth. As we all do. To be led by the Spirit, or not, is a choice we all must make in every situation we confront.
There are many who are doing what looks righteous and upstanding, who are just as guilty of disregarding the leading of the Holy Spirit, as are those whose sin is obvious. And quite frankly, the former are a much bigger problem than the latter.
That's real nice that you are not going to judge and all; but how do you know whom to celbrate with and whom to correct;
(Gal 6:1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
(Gal 6:2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
It seems that your post midernistic view of taking someone at their word and not by their fruits would lead you to ignore the command of the New Testament and the law of Christ to restore those who are at fault.
Thsnks
RC
Labels do not help RC. It is not that I am not going to judge, it is that I cannot, for I cannot see into a persons heart.
I have seen too many who have perfected the imitation of a branch. It is not a difficult thing to appear to be something one is not. As a child I was told to sit still and eat my peas. And I complied...outwardly. But, inside I was standing up, shaking my fist, and spitting those peas right out!
External compliance means nothing, without a changed heart to go along with it. And the heart is Gods territory.
It is the Truth that sets people free. I do not need to judge a persons heart in order to share the truth with them, to help restore them. If they are not truly saved, can the truth hurt them? Does Gods Word return void?
Are not hard, little, green, bitter baby apples...still apples? Are we called to be fruit inspectors or are we called to love?
Peace
We are called to be obedient to the Word, of which your attitude ignores.
You will let folks be in error and not do as God instructs to correct them and lead them back because why? You don't want to offend them or what.
Thanks
RC
Are you even reading my posts?
We have taken this thread for enough off the OP.
________________________________________________
Our faith is in Christ. We are sealed, Eph 4:30, and we will never be left alone or have His grip on us relaxed , Heb. 13:5.
Thank you Jesus !
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Can someone LOSE their faith - 7/15/2008 4:04:23 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5668
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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