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my quivers full -> Independence (7/13/2008 10:40:01 PM)

What are your thoughts on independence?

I heard a preacher once say that independence was a sin. It was independence that led Adam and Eve to sin. Many sins are an act of our choosing to go our own way. I ask this because someone I know, a believer, has been taking the stand that they can do what they want. Truly, I feel this is a result of the person not wanting others to tell them what to do. They don't want to be controlled or manipulated by others.

I know 1 Cor 6:12 says that "all things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable...but i will not be mastered by anything".

The bible says that we are not our own and that we belong to Christ. Does independence fit into this relationship? How much freedom do we have to walk in our own way?

Your thoughts?



Szaftoo -> RE: Independence (7/14/2008 9:43:24 AM)

The Bible is full of independent people who thought for themselves while praying and seeking the will of the Lord.



DaveW -> RE: Independence (7/14/2008 12:03:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Szaftoo

The Bible is full of independent people who thought for themselves while praying and seeking the will of the Lord.
That is truly looking at the text thru modern western eyes....



deermousie -> RE: Independence (7/14/2008 12:36:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: my quivers full

I heard a preacher once say that independence was a sin.


If you call disobeying God and following your own will independence, then you have a good argument. Adam and Eve sinned because the snake tempted them that God was withholding good from them. So it was disobedience, coveting and lack of faith in God's commands and His goodness to them. Sin.


quote:

I ask this because someone I know, a believer, has been taking the stand that they can do what they want. Truly, I feel this is a result of the person not wanting others to tell them what to do. They don't want to be controlled or manipulated by others.


To follow God is to submit to His will and His commands in the persuasion that He is good and giving us the best. God uses other people in our lives: He instituted marriage (with a "pecking order"), church (with a "pecking order") and state (with a "pecking order"). He has given us precepts, statutes and commands. We are a blind people walking through a mine field, and He tells us which way to step.

quote:


I know 1 Cor 6:12 says that "all things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable...but i will not be mastered by anything".

The bible says that we are not our own and that we belong to Christ. Does independence fit into this relationship? How much freedom do we have to walk in our own way?


I looked at the context of 1 Cor. 6, and it's talking about sin and the body. I don't get the connection, as it seems out of place - which proves I don't understand it. Yet. [:)] I hope someone else can talk about this.

But to be in Christ is to be in relationship, and He is the leader and we are the followers. Jesus said He did whatever the Father told Him to do, so there is a precedent. He has given us rules to live by so we avoid the landmines.

My pastor once said the Ten Commandments showed us the character of God (and before you ask, the one about the Sabbath is fulfilled in salvation - we don't work for our salvation under grace but it is a gift now. In the OT it was a works salvation, and no one could do it). Think of the Ten Commandments as a fence, and inside is lush pasture for the sheep of God. Outside are the wolves and barren lands. Within that pasture, we are free to go anywhere there we want. Outside is death.

I think your friend may be not well-versed in Scripture, and afraid of being hurt by people in authority. Or excusing some private sin perhaps. Persuade them from Scripture in a loving way and pray for them - it's a spiritual battle. God bless you for caring for him, and give you victory over the lie he is clinging to (smell the sulfur?). I am praying for you today.



BerianAardvark -> RE: Independence (7/14/2008 1:23:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: my quivers full

What are your thoughts on independence?

I heard a preacher once say that independence was a sin. It was independence that led Adam and Eve to sin. Many sins are an act of our choosing to go our own way. I ask this because someone I know, a believer, has been taking the stand that they can do what they want. Truly, I feel this is a result of the person not wanting others to tell them what to do. They don't want to be controlled or manipulated by others.


Delight yourself in the LORD; And He will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, and He will do it. (Psalms 37:4-5)

Your friend might try to use this as a proof verse, ignoring the fact that there are conditions, Delighting in the Lord and Committing you way to Him.

If my delight is in the Lord, then I will be delighted by what delights Him. If my way is committed to Him, then what I where I want to go will be where He would have me go.

Such a commitment and interest would mean that what God wants for me and my life would be what I wanted, hence God would have given me my hearts desire, I need to trust Him enough to allow Him to determine what my heart's desire should be and accept what He determines it to be.

quote] I know 1 Cor 6:12 says that "all things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable...but i will not be mastered by anything".

The bible says that we are not our own and that we belong to Christ. Does independence fit into this relationship? How much freedom do we have to walk in our own way?

You answered your own question....if we are walking in our own way, are we walking in God's way? ONLY if we delight in the Lord, commit our way to be His way, and trust Him to select what that way will be.

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, (Hebrews 12:1)

There is nothing in the rule book that says you cannot run a marathon in a scuba wet suit, but it certainly would hold you back. There are many things that are not specifically proscribed by scripture that we could do, but they wont help us to reach what (in theory) is our goal, and should any of them master us....then THEY have become our god, and not only hold us back but can (at least until we overcome that mastery) disqualify us from service.

Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. (1 Corinthians 9:26-27)

I think you are rightly discerning, that person wants to live their live their way, but still claim to be a follower of Christ....but how can you be a follower of Christ and still follow your own desires and path?

Tim



seagullplayer -> RE: Independence (7/14/2008 2:34:51 PM)

When you become a true follower of Christ, His way is your way.

That is part of becoming Christ like.

(Pro 3:5) Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

(Pro 3:6) In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

(Pro 3:7) Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.



(Pro 16:25) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

(Pro 21:2) Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.



my quivers full -> RE: Independence (7/14/2008 7:41:36 PM)

I have spent much time praying for this person and have also been praying for myself that I might see clearly and not judge unfairly. I do not wish conmdemnation on this person, but I see them making choices which are contrary to the heart of God as revealed through the scriptures. They think this is the best path for them. I shared an experience with this person recently where God wanted me to move to a certain town that I did not want to move to. God made His will clear to me but I insisted on going where I wanted to. God didn't argue with me, He simply let me walk my own way. It was the worst week I've ever had as a believer. I was full of anger. Nothing was right. I recognized that I needed to obey God, so I went to where I was supposed to be and I found His blessings for me there.

If we know what God's heart is on a situation and we willingly choose to go another way, we place ourselves on a dangerous road. An example to give, and this is not about this person I'm just picking an example. Is when we choose not to forgive. Forgiveness is difficult sometimes, but I think that's when it means the most. Jesus made it clear that we need to forgive from the heart. (Matt 6:14,15; Matt 18:23-35) It is a must command, not if you feel like it command. If we know this and choose to not forgive we will pay a heavy price for our choice.

I care very much for this person and I want to see Gods best for them, But I know that God's best can only come when we choose to walk in His ways. When we lay down our lives (wants and desires), take up our cross and follow Him.



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