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deliveredarling -> legalism (7/14/2008 8:51:57 AM)

I see in these threads all the time, comments made about this or that being legalistic. I really think it is a bunch of pooey. People scream legalism when they don't like something they are hearing. They scream it when they feel convicted. They especially scream it when they have to give up something that they are doing (a pet sin). It is amazing to me what and how people will justify sin in their lives. My suggestion to you leagalist police, is look in your life to what needs to go before telling someone that they are a legalist. Deflection doesn't help you or anyone else.



bluestone -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 8:58:32 AM)

Not everyone is the way you have described. I grew up in a church where going to the circus was a sin. Dancing was a sin, going to the prom was a sin, owning a television was a sin, wearing a wedding ring was a sin, all jewelry was, in fact , sin. Wearing short sleeves was a sin.

The church was, in fact, legalistic in a big way. they also removed people from membership on a regular basis who fell down in regards to any of the above mentioned situations. A pastor lost his preaching credentials when his adult married daughter was "seen" going into a movie theater.

Following extra Biblical rules does not make anyone a better, more holy believer. having "Standards" that show an absolute lack of trust in the Holy Spirit's convicting power does not make your church higher than others.

Legalism is a very real thing. It needs to stop.



deliveredarling -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 9:04:13 AM)

quote:



Following extra Biblical rules does not make anyone a better, more holy believer.


I'm not referring to any extra biblical rules. i agree those do need to stop. I'm referring to the very clearly stated scriptures in the bible, that people want to twist to mean justification on their own sin. This is when they scream legalism. maybe I didn'[t describe my beef to well.



bluestone -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 9:10:10 AM)

Maybe you could give some examples.[:)]



DaveW -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 9:17:01 AM)

I have seen both kinds of legalsim. Neither are pretty.



deliveredarling -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 9:26:34 AM)

Living a holy life. You've seen the major ones. They have all been debated and beaten to a dead horse.
Accountability/ responsibility

I just don't get why following the Word of God equals legalism or equates to being a pharisee. It just doesn't make any sense.



armydude -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 10:41:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

I see in these threads all the time, comments made about this or that being legalistic. I really think it is a bunch of pooey. People scream legalism when they don't like something they are hearing. They scream it when they feel convicted. They especially scream it when they have to give up something that they are doing (a pet sin). It is amazing to me what and how people will justify sin in their lives. My suggestion to you leagalist police, is look in your life to what needs to go before telling someone that they are a legalist. Deflection doesn't help you or anyone else.
I see the legalism card played a lot when it's not true, but I've also seen a lot of people that are 100% accurate in their assessment. The kicker is this; if you tell me something's wrong, that's truth while if you tell me that I'm not saved because of it, that's likely legalism.



Liveloved -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 11:26:56 AM)

Delivered,
As one who has befriended a number of women who were in legalistic churches but who have now been set free, I understand what you are speaking of. Those who were trapped in it and are now FREE scream at anything that resembles what they were trapped in before. It is a natural reaction---they fear what they know to be evil.

I have said this before but I would rather be found by God in a doctrineless church (which I was) than to be found by Him in a legalistic church. The legalistics have SO MUCH to get beyond to find God. And few do!

Colossians 2 gives much understanding to what these rules (even so-called biblical ones) do. They are superficial and though making the outside look pretty good, they are not the 'substance' (Paul's word). And Paul ends the chapter by saying, "These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of NO VALUE against fleshly indulgence."

Paul isn't talking about extremes here like those who whip themselves. He's talking about the simple "do not handle, do not taste, do not touch"!
Paul is warning us of the deceitfulness and danger of such.

Those who are now free of such constraints are ultrasensitive to anything that smells of this. They will get over it in time---the Spirit does amazing and mighty works to set them free of this response as well. But it takes time.

And we must bear with them, stand with them, pray for them, and love them through this very real time of what they perceive of danger. Anyway, I hope I've helped you in some way understand what you are observing. DD, you know how wonderful freedom is. You've experienced it. You also know what bondage is all about. Use what you know to come alongside and love these individuals to the place the Lord wants them to be. Bless you dear sister[sm=heart.gif][sm=hug.gif]! LL

Edited to add: Also look at 2Cor 3. The letter of the Law kills and many of those you are referring to have experienced this kind of death. It is brutal. And once freed, the pendulum tends to swing to the other extreme. But where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. So if we love them, pray for them, teach them what is TRUE and walk along side them, they will find the liberty of the Spirit. It is His work but we can do our part.[:)]



DaveW -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 11:38:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

I just don't get why following the Word of God equals legalism or equates to being a pharisee. It just doesn't make any sense.
Actually it does. Not necessarily right, but there is a sense to it.

Modern evangelicism has made such an idol out of "salvation by faith ONLY" that anything that looks remotely like "works" is considered evil. "Legalism!" "Works salvation!" etc. etc. has been the cry both from the pulpit and the congregants.

Look up the discussion on "Lordship Salvation" as taught by John McArthur on these lists to see how rabid that subject can be.

It is as if people either don't want to grow up as christians or believe that initial salvation is all there is.

Edited to add:

Pastors need to teach their congregations what legalism REALLY is (and what it is NOT), and WHY it is bad.



drmark -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 11:58:38 AM)

quote:

I have said this before but I would rather be found by God in a doctrineless church (which I was) than to be found by Him in a legalistic church. The legalistics have SO MUCH to get beyond to find God. And few do!
This is an interesting observation but one that seems to belittle the efficacious grace of God. I really do see how growing up in a legalistic system makes one's appreciation of grace more difficult, but surely God is able to overcome human pride. Indeed, I wonder if those who are saved out of legalism may actually be more dependent on God's grace in the long run than those who are saved out of deep dark sinful behaviors and make so many personal lifestyle changes after conversion.

One more comment for consideration. Legalism can readily become the extreme end result of Holiness doctrine when too much emphasis is placed on free will as its basis. On the other hand, antinomianism (lawlessness) can readily become the extreme end result of Reformed Calvinism when too much emphasis is placed on unconditional election. For me personally, I would much rather err on the side of legalism than lawlessness given the undisputed final destination of the constant sinner!



JimboFletch -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 12:15:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
...For me personally, I would much rather err on the side of legalism than lawlessness given the undisputed final destination of the constant sinner!

I don't think that or the other extreme shows the biblical understanding of the place of works in the believer's life. Having come from the camp that tended to err on the side of legalism, it was marvelous grace to learn that works are either a natural result of one's new nature and an immersion into walking in the Holy Spirit or else they are empty and worthless attempts to be something one is not.

Works are either genuine expressions of that which God is doing internally or else they are wood, hay, and straw.



deliveredarling -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 12:17:54 PM)

quote:



Works are either genuine expressions of that which God is doing internally or else they are wood, hay, and straw.


I agree with this completely. Forced works are evident or will eventually be revealed. God's works will stand eternal.



bluestone -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 12:49:37 PM)

I think most of the bickering resides in "disputable issues", things scripture may not seem to be clear on. Things you have to strectch scripture to get it to wrap around all the way.

Too many times people have been taught in error by the ignorant that something is sin that is not, or something is not sinful that is..legalism and liberalism are both beds I try not to sleep in.

Say that 150 years ago a local congregation was taught that something was evil and sinful. That subject kept being taught, and asumed to be correct all these years. You can point out to the descendants in that church (or denomination) that they are wrong, back it up with scripture...and they won't change their minds. Tradition takes preference.



drmark -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 1:02:47 PM)

quote:

I don't think that or the other extreme shows the biblical understanding of the place of works in the believer's life. Having come from the camp that tended to err on the side of legalism, it was marvelous grace to learn that works are either a natural result of one's new nature and an immersion into walking in the Holy Spirit or else they are empty and worthless attempts to be something one is not.
I also agree. But now that you're in the camp that "tends to err" on the side of lawlessness, do you not despair for those that ignore or minimize their works?



DaveW -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 1:12:51 PM)

quote:

the camp that "tends to err" on the side of lawlessness
Drmark: that was a bit harsh.



deliveredarling -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 1:35:28 PM)

DrMark, and DaveW, you boys have lost me. Camps that err on the side of lawlessness?????? Ignoring or minimizing works??? Why would somebody deny God the glory of those works???



bluestone -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 1:35:30 PM)

Another point about legalism: it produces religious snobbery.

You and your church are not as holy as me and mine since your members are "allowed" to do x, y, and z.

Chrisitans destroy each other of disputable matters.



deliveredarling -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 1:40:26 PM)

quote:

religious snobbery.


Haven't heard that term before, it made me chuckle.

I get what you are saying. What it boils down to is respect. We don't have to agree on everything, but we don't have to be right on everything either. I can tell you my opinions and disagree with yours, but that doesn't mean we aren't both believers in God. I don't have to put you or anyone else down because we may disagree.



Liveloved -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 1:46:28 PM)

quote:

This is an interesting observation but one that seems to belittle the efficacious grace of God.


Not on my part, drmark. As I just got up from my piano singing "and by grace we'll stand on your promises and by faith we'll walk as you walk with us", I have no intention of belittling my most gracious God.

But many of those still caught within the legalistic mindset that thinks every sermon has to be a salvation message or you can't baptize babies, etc, think God is too small to find us WHEREVER we are. So my testimony, growing up in the Evangelical & Reformed church begun by my ancestors when they immigrated to this country from Switzerland and which became the UCC church, of God speaking to me as a child, calling to me from within this most liberal church, using His word and hymns such as Holy, Holy, Holy, is a MOST wonderful testimony of God's amazing ways. He can reach beyond the barriers that bind men and find us! Hallelujah! No church is too liberal, no teaching too heinous for God. He can and does reach beyond all these so-called barriers that men erect. He finds those who are His. Not one sheep will He lose.

No, His grace is marvelous. And because of His grace and the leading of His Spirit, I can walk at liberty. But I don't have to battle the restraints that those who were bound by legalism battle. I walk in freedom. But freedom that is bound to Jesus. True freedom. That is the freedom He longs to bring us into. He's doing it for me. Praise the name of Jesus![:)]



drmark -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 1:55:29 PM)

quote:

Drmark: that was a bit harsh.
I'm not the one who used the phrase initially as you can see in post #11. My comment in post #10 was that legalism or antinomianism "can readily become extreme end results" of certain doctrinal traditions, not that one camp "tends to err" on certain sides. Do you feel labelling Holiness doctrine as "the camp that tended to err on the side of legalism" is any less harsh than labeling Reformed doctrine as "the camp that 'tends to err' on the side of lawlessness"? Is legalism any more grievous a problem than antinomianism in your opinion, Dave?



drmark -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 2:03:22 PM)

quote:

Another point about legalism: it produces religious snobbery.

You and your church are not as holy as me and mine since your members are "allowed" to do x, y, and z.
And some might argue that lawlessness produces religious snobbery:

Your and your church are not as liberated as me and mine since your members "prohibited" to do x, y, and z.



bluestone -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 2:18:23 PM)

drmark: I agree . The swing to liberalism has equal results.



drmark -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 2:32:50 PM)

Thanks for the acknowledgement, bluestone, but I'm not so sure that legalism and lawlessness do indeed have equal results. Think about it. If a Christian is doing all kinds of unnecessary good works for personal "holiness", then God may rebuke her/him in Heaven for their legalism. On the other hand, if a Christian is living in daily sin assured of their "election", will they even see God in Heaven to be rebuked?



bluestone -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 2:54:19 PM)

I don't agree with the mentality of "I was sinking deep in sin, WHEEEE!!!"
or with the adage "Tis a glorious church, without spot or wrinkle".

I do think that if you are not sure whether to do something or not, and don't get a clear answer from prayer or scripture, you are best to stay away from it.

At the same time, avoiding something that is not sin because someone else demands it of you robs you of freedom in Christ.

Example: I feel free to go swimming, even though there are people I know who declare it to be sin. I do not, after prayer, feel free to swim in a skimpy swimsuit, for me it would be sin. (conviction).



JimboFletch -> RE: legalism (7/14/2008 2:55:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

Thanks for the acknowledgement, bluestone, but I'm not so sure that legalism and lawlessness do indeed have equal results. Think about it. If a Christian is doing all kinds of unnecessary good works for personal "holiness", then God may rebuke her/him in Heaven for their legalism. On the other hand, if a Christian is living in daily sin assured of their "election", will they even see God in Heaven to be rebuked?

This reminds me of a story about two sons, one stayed home the other wanted his inheritance early and went away to a far country to spend it. I think, of the two, the one that stayed home ended up the poorer of the two.

Then there was Mary and Martha... One learning at the Master's feet, the other busy and critical of the other's lack of work. I remember the Master rebuking just one of the two.







[Edited to correct typo]



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