Greek grammar/translation help on John 1:7. (Full Version)

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hammurabi -> Greek grammar/translation help on John 1:7. (7/14/2008 11:27:16 PM)

If there's somewhere better to post this, please let me know. I was surprised not to find a Biblical languages folder. Anyways, I started studying Greek independently, using Paine's "Beginning Greek," and am having trouble with a section of John. The beginning was recent, so please excuse my perhaps incompetent grammar and questions.

John I:7 is written: "οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν, ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός, ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν δι' αὐτοῦ."

The NASB translates the passage as "He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him."

My current working translation is as follows: "He came (for) to witness, in order to testify (witness) about (concerning) the light, in order that all (might) (will) trust (believe) through him."

My translation is ugly, as is my knowledge of Greek. My question is as follows, after a brief explanation of the problem: "πάντες" is in the nominative plural, and I assume the implication is that, as the subject of the dependent clause, its implicit reference is "ἀνθρώπων" [man, "...the life was the light of man."] in John I:4, not "πάντα δι' αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο" ["All things through him came to be"; NASB: "All things came into being through Him"] in verse 3.

"πιστεύσωσιν" [to trust, to believe (in)] is, the best I can tell, part of a clause where the subject is "πάντες," since it is the nominative form of "πᾶς," and the only substantive used as a subject. "αὐτοῦ" [him, "...trust through him"] is genitive, which means that δι' [cont. διά] should mean "through."

What I cannot understand is where the notion of "may" or "might," which is the standardized translation in NASB and NIV, comes from. My probably syntactically, didactically, and stylistically eviscerating translation cannot - for the life of me - find a might, a may, any modal indicator. Of course, I am not up on my verbs, so perhaps that is the problem, but my book gives me the verb used, and a meaning, and I couldn't find a modal verb tense (of this kind, in this context) in an online search of Greek grammar.

My reconstruction is "in order that all [gen. "to"/"for"] to trust through him." Where am I overlooking something more than the rudiments I need to hack and slash away at this passage? Can someone explain to me what, perhaps, the verb, or the genitive declension, is doing? Or is this idiomatic speech?



BerianAardvark -> RE: Greek grammar/translation help on John 1:7. (7/15/2008 12:41:58 AM)

The might/may is part of the declension of the verb. The verbs Believe and Witness are in the Subjunctive mood.

Sometimes an interlinear is helpful to show this (Especially where the Strong's numbers include tense mood and voice):

John 1:7 ουτοςG3778 HE ηλθενG2064 [G5627] CAME ειςG1519 FOR μαρτυριανG3141 A WITNESS, ιναG2443 THAT μαρτυρησηG3140 [G5661] HE MIGHT WITNESS περιG4012 CONCERNING τουG3588 THE φωτοςG5457 LIGHT, ιναG2443 THAT παντεςG3956 ALL πιστευσωσινG4100 [G5661] MIGHT BELIEVE διG1223 THROUGH αυτουG846 HIM.

I'll print out the tense mood and voice definitions for the may/might verbs since some editions of Strong's don't have them:

G5661
Tense-Aorist See [G5777]
Voice-Active See [G5784]
Mood -Subjunctive See [G5792]
Count-512

G5777
Tense-Aorist

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these
include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars.

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases.

G5784
Voice-Active

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The boy hit the ball, " the boy performs the action.


G5792
Mood-Subjunctive

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."



hammurabi -> RE: Greek grammar/translation help on John 1:7. (7/16/2008 2:00:43 AM)

That makes more sense, thank you. I wonder why every textbook I encountered, before settling on one, attempts to have the reader do these translations without teaching the basic grammatical forms first? The other oddly missing element is declension tables, which I just constructed myself. Hmm...Either way, that was helpful. [:)]

You might find this site interesting, although it sounds like you probably don't need it: http://www.zhubert.com/bible?source=greek&verseref=John+1%3A7



BerianAardvark -> RE: Greek grammar/translation help on John 1:7. (7/16/2008 4:35:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hammurabi

That makes more sense, thank you. I wonder why every textbook I encountered, before settling on one, attempts to have the reader do these translations without teaching the basic grammatical forms first? The other oddly missing element is declension tables, which I just constructed myself. Hmm...Either way, that was helpful. [:)]

You might find this site interesting, although it sounds like you probably don't need it: http://www.zhubert.com/bible?source=greek&verseref=John+1%3A7


You are welcome.

Thanks for the link, I can always use a good language study site.

I'm not a Greek scholar, the only reason I could help is that I have some excellent Bible study software. (e-Sword).

Verb declension does seem to be something that is not emphasized.

Having software that does indicate (and define) tense mood and voice (Stem and Mood for Hebrew) does help.

Tim



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