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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 7/18/2008 10:35:23 AM
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Dagwat
Posts: 53
Joined: 6/13/2008
From: Oklahoma
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I know people like you are referring to, who have lived a highly moral life but just don't go to church. Some of them have work ethics much better than many Christians. They were raised like that, it is ingrained in them. When they see someone in church professing to be a christian, but who struggles with things they can't seem to get a handle on, they call those people hypocrites. Many of these moral people will not attend church because they feel they are living a better life than many who are claiming to be Christians. Just because some people struggle with temptations doesn't mean they are not praying to God and trying with all they have to get it right. Some are just badly beaten down with desires they once gave in to freely before they got saved and are in a real battle to totally overcome those old habits and such.
Such people who have never allowed themselves to stray into things they knew not to do, would call people hypocrites because they did do things they knew were wrong, before they decided to let God come into their heart. Now there are also genuine hypocrites in the church. People who have become so self righteous that they fail to realize where they themselves could be had it not been for a conversion to Christ at an early age. Because of such people, many good moral non-Christians will not go inside a church today. But I like the way I heard an old preacher once say it.
"If there's a hypocrite standing between you and God, then the hypocrite is closer to God than you are, and has a better chance of finding eternal life in Christ". When I picture that in my mind, it makes perfect sense. God on one side, me on another and a hypocrite standing between us, well that's kinda hard to deny.
My best friend of thirty years died a couple years ago in an accident. He was a better friend to me in the hard times of life, than most anyone I ever went to church with. But as far as I know he died without Christ in his life. He knew better and we had talked about this time and time again. He was much that way. A good moral fellow, and wouldn't turn his back on a friend in need for anything. Even when people in the church didn't seem to care. But he didn't have much desire for God in his life. At least some of those very imperfect people at church, professing to be Christians, and struggling to overcome sin, at least WANT to be what God would desire for them. God looks upon the heart, and sometimes we forget to do that. We look at a person's actions and fail to ever see what's in there, deep inside their heart that drives them to keep trying in spite of many many failures.
Is it really moral to see someone who has lived a "not so clean" life, go to church and try to be a Christian, and then judge them when they see that person fall to temptation? I am thankful for the friendship I had with my friend, even though we were not "like-minded" spiritually. Because of our different views on Christianity, we didn't go a lot of places together, or enjoy pastimes together. We just visited from time to time and we had an openness between us to share from the heart. I was able to witness to him on numerous occasions but we didn't just "chum around" together, after I became a Christian. We were different. Our beliefs were different. Our political views were different because of the principles of Christ I accepted and he didn't. I'm glad we were friends, but if I hadn't met him until after I got saved, I probably wouldn't have ever been friends with him. I think we should choose Christian friends, and not those who are non believers. That being said, God does allow our paths to cross with other people we can greatly admire, and even greatly relate to in some way, and form friendships, but beyond visiting with each other, there is a difference from just becoming real bosom buddies. I believe the heart of a sincere Christian will draw a line to how much we associate with non believers, no matter how much we like them as a friend. Otherwise, we might also begin to feel we are living a better life than many Christians and no longer see our own need for Christ, or church. We must guard ourselves from becoming JUST moral and upstanding and failing to recognize that morals are not enough.
_____________________________
God knows right where each of us are, and just how to find us, even when we don't want to be found. He doesn't have to send someone down to our level to reach us. He knows exactly how to draw us to His message and to where He has placed it.
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 7/18/2008 10:42:20 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 4851
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
My father-in-law has the same testimony -- thinking he was good enough because he did so much right, and he was and is a great guy. He was 43 years old when he became a Christian. My husband, who became a Christian about 5-6 years before his dad, used to despair as a kid, "Lord, I hope you can save my dad, but I don't see how, since he doesn't seem to need you."
My father-in-law read Mere Christianity and also went to a James Robison Crusade not long after where he walked the aisle one night, made his profession for the Lord, and he hasn't been the same since. I love the way he puts his testimony, "I was like a polished pair of shoes. I could keep the tops clean, but the soles were always getting dirty." Thankfully, he came to the end of his "righteousness."
Wonderful post.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 7/18/2008 11:44:46 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3035
Joined: 6/8/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
My father-in-law has the same testimony -- thinking he was good enough because he did so much right, and he was and is a great guy. He was 43 years old when he became a Christian. My husband, who became a Christian about 5-6 years before his dad, used to despair as a kid, "Lord, I hope you can save my dad, but I don't see how, since he doesn't seem to need you."
My father-in-law read Mere Christianity and also went to a James Robison Crusade not long after where he walked the aisle one night, made his profession for the Lord, and he hasn't been the same since. I love the way he puts his testimony, "I was like a polished pair of shoes. I could keep the tops clean, but the soles were always getting dirty." Thankfully, he came to the end of his "righteousness."
Beautiful! Just beautiful.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 7/18/2008 11:58:00 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2951
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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God is good isn't He?  That event had a huge effect on my husband. It built him up in his faith tremendously as a child not to mention his dad's salvation being huge.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 7/18/2008 2:00:06 PM
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Bridgitt
Posts: 237
Joined: 6/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SusieQ567
....but what is our perspective when you begin to see a pattern....a pattern in which the people you know, backpack with etc...have a higher moral code and sense of integrity than some of the Christians you know? This should not be. It is an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. .....
Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
1 Thessalonians 5:14
And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all.
I love to be with somebody who is more spiritually mature than me. I am open to any teaching, sharing, and admonishing this person might have for me. This is one way I can grow in Christ. Of course it is to be done with love. We should never feel embarrassed about it but see it as a godly opportunity to get closer to God. I would have loved to walk alongside Paul. I'm sure that he would have admonished me plenty times but I would have learnt so much about how to live in order to deepen my relationship with God.
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/7/2008 12:44:42 AM
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BibleL7
Posts: 480
Joined: 2/1/2008
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It usually not so much a matter of us seeing 'Christians' with morals less than ours or not living morally lives for most who would not set foot in a church as it is a matter of seeing 'Christians' who would not give the time of day to you cause you are not clean cut or wearing expensive clothing. Or who would not help someone in need when it was obvious they could. The main complaint I knew of about 'Christians' was they didnt care for others, would expect everyone else to give money for starving kids yet when a neighbor needed some help to get a job or in moving or just a little financial help and these 'Christians' would just snub their noses at them. Or if they need someone to talk to they get looked down on cause they dont use proper language all the time. Rarely is it a person who is struggling with sin or falling left and right that turns people off to 'Christians' but more of them not caring to help others. This is what made me mad at 'Christians' more than anything was the ones who thought they were better because they were in church.
Just a little of how I felt when I was an atheist
< Message edited by BibleL7 -- 8/7/2008 12:54:32 AM >
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And you're surprised? - 8/7/2008 2:00:52 AM
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oldmethuselah
Posts: 520
Joined: 7/5/2005
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SusieQ567...
The following remark is extremely telling...
quote:
a pattern in which the people you know, backpack with etc...have a higher moral code and sense of integrity than some of the Christians you know?
Your astonishment can only be based on an assumption which flies in the face of a core evangelical belief.
Now, since MANY MANY evangelicals ALSO forget this core evangelical belief you are in good company.
HOWEVER, to restate it, basically, it is not the well-favoured, the culturally well-groomed, the successful and well-integrated personalities that are attracted to Christianity in the first place ("not many noble are chosen" says scripture)
It is the liars, prostitutes, cheats and morally reprobate that make up the first ranks of the church!
Now, in the end, and by slow process of change, these sad wrecks (and such are we), will, and do, surpass the socially elite, however - in the interim - I fully expect the results you have reported.
NOW... as an afterthought... IF you explore the CLAIM of a "higher moral code" you may find some surprising gaps in fabric... I base this a) on my constant interaction with well-favored well-educated people who have incredibly hard hearts when it comes to the protection of certain groups (such as the unborn) and, b) my immersion in CANADIAN culture, since, as a group, we consider ourselves SO morally superior to Yankees, and, thus embrace all manner of public policies that demean and subject our children to harm.
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/7/2008 8:56:08 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2951
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
It usually not so much a matter of us seeing 'Christians' with morals less than ours or not living morally lives for most who would not set foot in a church as it is a matter of seeing 'Christians' who would not give the time of day to you cause you are not clean cut or wearing expensive clothing. Or who would not help someone in need when it was obvious they could. The main complaint I knew of about 'Christians' was they didnt care for others, would expect everyone else to give money for starving kids yet when a neighbor needed some help to get a job or in moving or just a little financial help and these 'Christians' would just snub their noses at them. Or if they need someone to talk to they get looked down on cause they dont use proper language all the time. Rarely is it a person who is struggling with sin or falling left and right that turns people off to 'Christians' but more of them not caring to help others. This is what made me mad at 'Christians' more than anything was the ones who thought they were better because they were in church.
Just a little of how I felt when I was an atheist
I understand.
We need to hear the sermon about the "Good Samaritan" on a regular basis. 
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/8/2008 12:52:00 AM
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Theophile2
Posts: 107
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: online
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Susan -
You have made several good observations, and the posts you have received thus far contain some very good responses.
Let's start with:
quote:
We should surround ourselves with people that are healthy for us obviously, in our friendships, and also associate with people of faith and worship regularly
You are absolutely correct in this observation (Eph 5:15-21; He 10:24-25).
But it should be tempered, as mentioned previously, with the story of the Good Samaritan, and every other story of Christ reaching out to the less fortunate. He did not win the hearts of people by staying holed up in a synagogue or the temple. He went out to where people were hurting, and helped them (Mt 9:11-13).
And apparently you agree, since the following observation would have to come with spending time with those who do not profess to be Christians:
quote:
....but what is our perspective when you begin to see a pattern....a pattern in which the people you know, backpack with etc...have a higher moral code and sense of integrity than some of the Christians you know?
I think it has already been observed that perhaps the outside of the cup looks better than the inside of the cup (Mt 23:25-28). Theologians call this behavior "civil virtue" as opposed to the righteousness of Christ observed in the process of sanctification of true believers. Sometimes, "civil virtue" can look pretty good from the outside.
quote:
This should not be. It is an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. Our unsaved friends are quite aware of the gaps also.
Another very good observation. In fact, this has become such a problem that not only are christian sociologists describing our current era as being beyond post-modern, we are now fully post-Christian, but moreover, those who aren't Christian have begun to view those who call themselves Christian as behaving in an "Un-Christian" manner - there's an entire book written on the issue.
The problem it seems, is one that goes beyond the usual concept of acknowledging that we Christians are sinners like everyone else, and we are all going through a process of sanctification that will last a lifetime (Php 1:6).
I think it also goes beyond the acknowledgment that within the church itself there will be wolves in sheep's clothing, chaff among the wheat, and just plain hypocrites (Mt 7:15; Mt 13:24-30; Mt 7:21-23).
It goes beyond this in that I would offer the opinion that the majority of Christians today are really not that different than first century Romans ... our religion has no impact on our daily life or behavior. Christianity has become a once a week activity if that, and life Monday through Saturday is lived on secular terms. George Barna has spent several years documenting the "Un-Christian" perspective among non-believers, and the cognitive disconnect within well over 80% of Christians in America among what is professed (I'm a Christian), what is believed (not everything in the Bible), and the behavior they display (not that different from secular society).
I for one truly believe that the Christian community must take a hard look at what we are teaching ourselves in terms of the practical application of Christianity to everyday life, and how we go about making decisions everyday based on what we believe to be true in the Word of God.
quote:
Jesus said You will know them by their fruit.
Yes, Susan, He did say that. But just prior to saying that in Mt 7:20, this is what He said:
Mat 7:15-19 ESV "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. (16) You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? (17) So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. (18) A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. (19) Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Meaning you can't find Christ-like fruit growing on the tree of a non-Christian.
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/8/2008 6:00:16 PM
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kmbmhands
Posts: 13
Joined: 8/1/2008
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The church has 2 people in it SUCKERS and the people that take advantage of them.
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/8/2008 8:07:18 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3618
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
That event had a huge effect on my husband. It built him up in his faith tremendously as a child not to mention his dad's salvation being huge.
Having your dad saved is...big.
My dad was saved at 67. His friends and wife had been praying for him for 50 years. When he was going to be baptised, they had special recognition of that in his church.
Its a small baptist church, maybe 30 regular members, that has been in existance since 1802. His neighbors go there, people he had a lot in common with since they were all farmers, sharing each other's resources and experiences.
Two of these life long aquaintances stood up in church and testified to the influence my father had on them. Pretty powerful stuff, but the best was yet to come.
We had to wait to baptise my dad because of a thunderstorm but we did a while later, in a very cold creek about a mile from church. I know it was cold because I helped my dad's pastor baptise him. My dad had asked me, months before so I flew in for it.
It was the second time in my life I saw my dad cry.
It was a day I will never forget.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/8/2008 10:43:42 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2951
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
That event had a huge effect on my husband. It built him up in his faith tremendously as a child not to mention his dad's salvation being huge.
Having your dad saved is...big.
My dad was saved at 67. His friends and wife had been praying for him for 50 years. When he was going to be baptised, they had special recognition of that in his church.
Its a small baptist church, maybe 30 regular members, that has been in existance since 1802. His neighbors go there, people he had a lot in common with since they were all farmers, sharing each other's resources and experiences.
Two of these life long aquaintances stood up in church and testified to the influence my father had on them. Pretty powerful stuff, but the best was yet to come.
We had to wait to baptise my dad because of a thunderstorm but we did a while later, in a very cold creek about a mile from church. I know it was cold because I helped my dad's pastor baptise him. My dad had asked me, months before so I flew in for it.
It was the second time in my life I saw my dad cry.
It was a day I will never forget.
Man, what an awesome thing. God is good!
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/8/2008 11:54:00 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 530
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
That event had a huge effect on my husband. It built him up in his faith tremendously as a child not to mention his dad's salvation being huge.
Having your dad saved is...big.
My dad was saved at 67. His friends and wife had been praying for him for 50 years. When he was going to be baptised, they had special recognition of that in his church.
Its a small baptist church, maybe 30 regular members, that has been in existance since 1802. His neighbors go there, people he had a lot in common with since they were all farmers, sharing each other's resources and experiences.
Two of these life long aquaintances stood up in church and testified to the influence my father had on them. Pretty powerful stuff, but the best was yet to come.
We had to wait to baptise my dad because of a thunderstorm but we did a while later, in a very cold creek about a mile from church. I know it was cold because I helped my dad's pastor baptise him. My dad had asked me, months before so I flew in for it.
It was the second time in my life I saw my dad cry.
It was a day I will never forget.
Son this is so powerful, thanks for sharing this because it gives me hope for my parents. They are both 74 and i have been praying for decades for their salvation. My hope for them was almost gone and this testimony renews it.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/9/2008 3:07:58 AM
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GraceBro
Posts: 354
Joined: 12/17/2005
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quote:
Our unsaved friends are quite aware of the gaps also. Jesus said You will know them by their fruit.
Perhaps the key to your dilemma is found in the above sentence. The fruit we bear is not the byproduct of our efforts, but rather we bear the fruit of the Spirit.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is... (Galatians 5:22a)"
This may come as a shock, but Christians don't live by determining what is right and what is wrong and trying to live accordingly. To me, that is what is meant by a moral code. How much good are you doing and how much bad are you avoiding? When you think about it aren't we guilty of making the same mistake Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden when the Serpent tricked Eve into eating the forbideen fruit?
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5
We are trying to be like God by attempting to live by a "moral code." We may not say it in those particular terms, but it is the same nonetheless. We have all heard people say they are trying to be more "Christlike." Well, Jesus is God, right? And in order to live this way we have to determine what qualifies as good and evil. And what is that? It is life under the Law. The Law was not designed to make us righteous, holy or blameless. But, rather it's purpose was to show us our sinfulness so we would turn to Christ by faith. In turn, a Christian lives a life of faith in the indwelling Holy Spriit who guides a believer from within.
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us... (Titus 2: 11-12a)"
A Christian lives a life of responding to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. When we are doing that, the Holy Spirit is not going to lead us into a life of sin. And that is the goal of the Christian life; learning to trust the Holy Spirit in our lives. And when we are trusting in, and relying on, Him, He will produce the fruit that we bear for God.
"...love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22b)."
We cannot muster up these attributes in and of ourselves. In fact, the fruits of the Spirit are reminders of just how it is that God deals with us. We, in turn, are able to share what we have received from God with the people we meet each day. When we bear these fruits to the world, those we encounter will be effected by it to the point that it may lead someone to Christ. Remember, for example, we can't express patience or kindness to someone unless they are being impatient and unkind towards us.
"...to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age...(Titus 2:12b)"
And when we are bearing these fruits, it is not out of obedience to laws or moral codes, but in reponse to the leading of the Holy Spirit. God already had a moral code in place for us to live by. It was the Law. The Law was God's contribution to man's best efforts to be like Him. And, as we read throughout the Old Testament, we see story after story of mankinds failure to live up to it. Perhaps your backpacking friends appear to have a "higher moral code and sense of integrity" simply because they have a set of laws they have agreed to try and live by that appear more acceptable and doable than the ones your Christian friends have adopted. Both are mistaken.
Grace and Peace
_____________________________
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraceRest/
www.livinggodministries.net
http://360.yahoo.com/idog96
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/9/2008 3:48:56 AM
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Aleric
Posts: 33
Joined: 10/31/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SusieQ567
Hi guys, This is kind of a spin off of a discussion in another thread, and wanted you all to weigh in. We should surround ourselves with people that are healthy for us obviously, in our friendships, and also associate with people of faith and worship regularly....but what is our perspective when you begin to see a pattern....a pattern in which the people you know, backpack with etc...have a higher moral code and sense of integrity than some of the Christians you know? This should not be. It is an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. Our unsaved friends are quite aware of the gaps also. Jesus said You will know them by their fruit. If you have an adversarial posture,or have a need to just set somebody straight, please do not contribute to this thread. It is meant for the purpse of courteous, respectful, christian discussion only. Thanks very much for reading! :)
It kind of sounds like you've had a bad experience. This sounds like a vent post. I do that sometimes so I hope I'm not offending you. It isn't my intention to.
I've seen a few post in this thread where people have said, "Christian aren't perfect". It's true we're not. We make mistakes all the time like everyone else. Just because we're saved doesn't mean we're above mortality here on earth. We're suppose to need Jesus to fall back on or to save us from time to time. To remind us of how much he loves us.
I keep having this same thought. It's overwhelming sometimes. This is the thought.
We're all brothers and sisters in Christ. So why don't we treat each other like family?
We really don't and we should. I know in many Churches, the members look out for each other.
Someone falls behind on the rent, or they lose their job and need groceries. The Church pulls together and helps them out. It's estimated that there are 3 billion Christians on the planet.
Can you imagine if you just helped Christians out every where. Regardless if they were in our Church or not. We would really all be lenders and not barrows.
No worries.
I'm guessing once the stress is out of our lives because we have such a big family to fall back on.
We would "all" be setting an example.
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/9/2008 4:58:57 AM
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Annie64
Posts: 708
Joined: 6/4/2007
From: Indianapolis, IN
Status: offline
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I have had an experience that I think directly relates to the question the OP is asking. It doesn't give any answers. It only illustrates the question. It's sort of a long story so I hope it isn't too long of a post. I'll try not to be too wordy.
A year ago last June, my then 17-year-old son was rear-ended in a parking lot. He was driving my almost new car, so new that I hadn't made more than two payments on it. I insisted that we get a police report because I wanted to be sure insurance would pay for repairs and I wanted it to be clear that the accident was not my son's fault, since he was a minor. The young man who had run into him waited at my insistence, even though the police were very slow to show up. He said that this was likely to make him lose his new job, and cause him to be arrested since he was driving on a suspended drivers' license. I still insisted, and the man waited. I don't know what happened about the job, but he didn't end up going to jail, but only because the accident happened in a parking lot, not on the street. But the officer said that if it had happened on the street, he would have been arrested. The guy had been legitimately afraid of it.
Several months later, I started a new job and wanted very much to be a witness to my co-workers. One night I parked at work between two cars and then decided I was too close to the car on my left to even be able to get out. I was going to back out and pull in again to the space, but as I backed, I heard a heart-deflating noise, stopped quickly, and looked back. My driver's side mirror had hooked onto the driver's side mirror of the car I was so close to--it had been backed in to the space. As soon as I pulled forward again the mirror of the other car hung limply in its place. I knew who's car it was and immediately went inside and told the owner what had happened. She told me not to worry about it, even after I told her I'd pay for the damage. Several months have gone by and she has still not gotten it repaired. It was an older car and not in very good repair. Eventually she had a mechanic friend do everything else on the car, but the mirror, the last I knew, still hadn't been fixed. I'm still willing to pay for it, but I don't know if she's going to let me.
This incident blew me away, and totally put my desire to be a witness at work in a different light. I even started a thread about it. In that thread, I said that I couldn't "out-nice" my co-workers. I had the other situation, my son's accident, to compare with, and knew that I had been shown more mercy by someone who is not living a Christian life than I, who am supposed to be living one, had shown.
I still don't know how to be a witness at work. They know I'm a Christian, but I have been humbled. I don't know what comes next. I had thought that my behavior would make them wonder what I had that they didn't. After that happened, I can see that that was very prideful.
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/9/2008 12:44:54 PM
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terryjohn
Posts: 392
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
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Righteousness is not determined as men determine it, for it is not about being perfect but about being in love with this Christ. And yet we find seemingly sinless men who in their hearts and intentions depsie Christ and His righteousness and even more His claim on their lives. Sin is about being seperated from Christ or a state of faithlessness. Faith is the determining factor is sin. For without faith it is impossible to please Him. Now one man does a good deed without faith and it is account to him as a sin and a man who has faith does the same good deed and it is accredited to him as righteouenesss. Now both may do evil but it is faith that restores one of them and the continuing lack of it that will condemn the other.
Scripture says some of mens sins are presently apparent but there are others that will be made apparent at the judgement seat of Christ. In the end it is not that we did good that we are accepted but simply because we did not reject Christ. Now the man who does no evil and is perfect in all his ways and yet rejects the grace and love of Christ is lost and no amount of self righteousness will excuse them for having rejected so great a salvation.
I see our salvation much the same way I see my own relationship with my own son who I love. He may not be as good a my neighbours son but he is mine and loved all the more for it. His faults are forgiven simply because he is my son but the faults of the neighbour can never be forgiven in the sameway for he is not my son.
The only unforgiveable sin is continuing unbelief.
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/9/2008 1:13:38 PM
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Paul_Thomas
Posts: 5
Joined: 8/9/2008
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There are a few things that stick out to me in the posts I've read on this thread:
1. The concept that "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" - a true concept but often misapplied to justify a lifestyle that is inconsistent with the teachings of Christ.
2. A question comes to me: Who are the Christians that the thread starter is in fellowship with? Most of the Christitans I know have integrity, character and a high moral standard.
3. The final observation: the 67 year old dad that "got saved." I wouldn't want to place a judgment upon the man either before or after he made a profession of faith, but the chances are very good that many years earlier he had developed a belief system that was consistent with Christianity but had never felt confident to make a public profession.
Just my thoughts.
_____________________________
Paul
www.newhopeministryresources.org
Reconciled - Renewed - Restored
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RE: Please weigh in on this... - 8/9/2008 3:45:57 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3035
Joined: 6/8/2005
Status: offline
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Hi, Paul. Welcome to the forum.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Paul_Thomas
There are a few things that stick out to me in the posts I've read on this thread . . .
3. The final observation: the 67 year old dad that "got saved." I wouldn't want to place a judgment upon the man either before or after he made a profession of faith, but the chances are very good that many years earlier he had developed a belief system that was consistent with Christianity but had never felt confident to make a public profession.
Just my thoughts.
What difference should that make, Paul? The proof in the salvation pudding is partly confession with the mouth. I have two brothers I believe are a singular step from salvation, but they both are still confessing with their mouths that they are not yet believers. Therefore, they are not yet believers.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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