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SusieQ567 -> Please weigh in on this... (7/15/2008 1:19:00 PM)

Hi guys, This is kind of a spin off of a discussion in another thread, and wanted you all to weigh in. We should surround ourselves with people that are healthy for us obviously, in our friendships, and also associate with people of faith and worship regularly....but what is our perspective when you begin to see a pattern....a pattern in which the people you know, backpack with etc...have a higher moral code and sense of integrity than some of the Christians you know? This should not be. It is an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. Our unsaved friends are quite aware of the gaps also. Jesus said You will know them by their fruit. If you have an adversarial posture,or have a need to just set somebody straight, please do not contribute to this thread. It is meant for the purpse of courteous, respectful, christian discussion only. Thanks very much for reading! :)



SonInMe1 -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/15/2008 1:58:13 PM)

quote:

It is an embarrassment to the Body of Christ.


No, I disagree. Church is not for perfect people and its not a perfect place and promoting it as such, will only prove to the unsaved that we are hypocrits.

Christians are not magically transformed to perfect little gods when we accept Jesus as Lord. We are sanctified and tempered and we grow.

Many people come to the Lord after a life of very poor choices. After 20 to 50 years of bad choices, they just don't disappear in one moment.

Not all fruit is the same. Not every christian, at the moment of salvation has perfect fruit.

Not even all christians who have known the Lord for years act perfectly all the time. If a mature christian is perfect, then why does the bible talk of forgiveness? Repentence? It would seem there are proccesses in the bible to handle our imperfections, our inability to be....God.

Now, after saying all of that....we should always strive toward the goal of being Christ like. One aspect of an effective witness is to walk the walk when you start talking the talk....integrity.

We all are under the microscope. What we do, as professing christians, does color christianity. However, no matter how bad WE are, it never takes away from whom Jesus is.



LCannon -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/15/2008 2:32:25 PM)

Well, it's just natural that like mindedness attracts like minded association and, hopefully, the more obedient the more maturing in our walk the less demanding of our way and views. It's interesting license and 'Pharasee'(legalist) are the 'weaker brethren'. Romans 14:14-"I know there’s nothing unclean in obedience but we make cleanliness unclean by our approach to another’s burden. 15 If because of external attitudes our brother is hurt you aren’t walking in your sacrifice [for] we destroy what is sustenance for him to whom Christ died. 16 Therefore, don’t let a good thing[for you]become a license for your own vanity 17 for the kingdom of God is not indulging in vanity but righteousness and peace and joy in your gifting. 18 He who submits his way serves Christ to the acceptance of God and is approved by men."

We shouldn't be surprised that the unrepentant's lack respect for morality and decency nor the narrowness of the new convert or the 'Pharisee' rather we should(as a maturing soul of all colors)blend into a cohesive meld of personalities with all their character in service/worship to 'Bring them in, Build them up and Send them Out'.



SusieQ567 -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/15/2008 2:48:44 PM)

Thanks for setting me straight guys....I was really looking for observations.



Liveloved -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/15/2008 3:40:21 PM)

Susie,

I have observed this too. I have some really 'good' friends. And, yes, they live very moral lives. But the whole point of the gospel message is that no matter how good we are or can be, it is not good enough. The rich young ruler was a good man. Saul (Paul) was a good man.

But it is hard for 'good' friends to see their need for Christ.[sm=icon_smile_cry.gif] So we must pray for them. Pride deceives and blinds people. Many 'good' Christians are blinded by their pride as well. That's why we are to cry out to be humbled---only the humble see themselves as they are.

Anyway, I hope these are the kind of thoughts you're looking for.[:)] Bless ya! LL



BibleL7 -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/15/2008 9:48:55 PM)

Well perhaps you should consider talking to those friends about Jesus and get them to join the church and you would have good friends and brothers and sisters in the Lord that you like. Moral people need Jesus too.



OneJohn410 -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/15/2008 11:14:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusieQ567

Hi guys, This is kind of a spin off of a discussion in another thread, and wanted you all to weigh in. We should surround ourselves with people that are healthy for us obviously, in our friendships, and also associate with people of faith and worship regularly....but what is our perspective when you begin to see a pattern....a pattern in which the people you know, backpack with etc...have a higher moral code and sense of integrity than some of the Christians you know? This should not be. It is an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. Our unsaved friends are quite aware of the gaps also. Jesus said You will know them by their fruit. If you have an adversarial posture,or have a need to just set somebody straight, please do not contribute to this thread. It is meant for the purpse of courteous, respectful, christian discussion only. Thanks very much for reading! :)

Please explain about these higher moral code folks... I'm confused. Are they all 'mightier, better Christians' than other Christians you know. Or are you comparing them to others at church? Or are these higer folks unbelievers?

Thanks. If I read things right, the unbelieving friends are not going to allow themselves to be tripped up by the Christian stumbling blocks into being a 'bogus' Christian person who's more rude than they are presently.

Right now I'm just confused.

OneJohn410



SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/16/2008 12:37:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusieQ567

Hi guys, This is kind of a spin off of a discussion in another thread, and wanted you all to weigh in. We should surround ourselves with people that are healthy for us obviously, in our friendships, and also associate with people of faith and worship regularly....but what is our perspective when you begin to see a pattern....a pattern in which the people you know, backpack with etc...have a higher moral code and sense of integrity than some of the Christians you know? This should not be. It is an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. Our unsaved friends are quite aware of the gaps also. Jesus said You will know them by their fruit. If you have an adversarial posture,or have a need to just set somebody straight, please do not contribute to this thread. It is meant for the purpse of courteous, respectful, christian discussion only. Thanks very much for reading! :)

I see what you mean, and I do agree that we as Christians, should have higher morals, integrity and many other virtues, than those who do not believe.

We must always remember that we are not perfect. We all fall short of the glory of God, no one is good, and I think you know the rest.

Point is, many of us are works in progress. The old self is being replaced. The old habits are being broken. For some this may happen instantly when they accept the Lord, and for some it can be a lifelong process. We are still flesh, and the flesh has its desires, which go against the desires of the Spirit which now dwells in us.

My advice to you would be, that if you know someone of faith in Christ, who does something they should not be doing, tell them about it. Not judgmentally, but with the love of Jesus. We need to help strengthen our brothers and sisters in Christ, and not condemn them, which is something I have trouble with also. It is so easy to point out the speck in your brothers eye, while there is a big old plank in your own(not a dig at you by the way, just we in general).

We all fall short, which is why we need Jesus.



iamjc-s -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/16/2008 12:21:01 PM)

-
On the other hand it DOES bother me how much Christians are letting Satan get finger & toe wholes.

When we give Satan finger & toe wholes he expands them to hand & foot holds & so forth.

-
2 Examples:

1>Halloween which stores now have cards & lights for (like Christmas)
& too many Christians are cellobrating/ partisipating in.

2> The things we listen to, watch, &/or read.
-



bzirk -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/16/2008 12:55:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusieQ567

Hi guys, This is kind of a spin off of a discussion in another thread, and wanted you all to weigh in. We should surround ourselves with people that are healthy for us obviously, in our friendships, and also associate with people of faith and worship regularly....but what is our perspective when you begin to see a pattern....a pattern in which the people you know, backpack with etc...have a higher moral code and sense of integrity than some of the Christians you know? This should not be. It is an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. Our unsaved friends are quite aware of the gaps also. Jesus said You will know them by their fruit. If you have an adversarial posture,or have a need to just set somebody straight, please do not contribute to this thread. It is meant for the purpse of courteous, respectful, christian discussion only. Thanks very much for reading! :)


I know many Christians who are becoming more keenly aware that the church does not look that different from the world. I believe that's the Holy Spirit at work. The key is not to respond by cloaking ourselves in spirituality or good works just to prove to ourselves or to others that we are not of the world, or not so bad. Instead we have to focus and stay focused on the Lord and what He wants. If we'll just do that as individual believers, there will be a big difference.

But sadly, what happens too often (once is too often) is that Christians will become aware of these kinds of things, and instead of receiving that awareness as wisdom and turning to the Lord to seek more of His wisdom and praying without ceasing, they fall into the trap of agreeing with the accuser of the brethen. Meaning, we throw in with Satan and condemn our own.

So where is accountability in all of this? If we truly love our brothers in Christ and therefore have an atittude of restoration, as the Lord does, then we wil not want to accuse them when we see behaviors that are not Godly, but rather we can aproach them in love and hold them accountable for their actions that fall short of what the Lord instructs. Of course that means that we have to be familiar with what the Lord instructs. What also seems to happen too often is that Christians are held accountable only when sins of the body occur such as addictions or sexual sin. yet often there needs to be accountability for such things as unkindness, bad attitudes, gossip, or dissension within the body of Christ.



SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/16/2008 1:07:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusieQ567

Hi guys, This is kind of a spin off of a discussion in another thread, and wanted you all to weigh in. We should surround ourselves with people that are healthy for us obviously, in our friendships, and also associate with people of faith and worship regularly....but what is our perspective when you begin to see a pattern....a pattern in which the people you know, backpack with etc...have a higher moral code and sense of integrity than some of the Christians you know? This should not be. It is an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. Our unsaved friends are quite aware of the gaps also. Jesus said You will know them by their fruit. If you have an adversarial posture,or have a need to just set somebody straight, please do not contribute to this thread. It is meant for the purpse of courteous, respectful, christian discussion only. Thanks very much for reading! :)


I know many Christians who are becoming more keenly aware that the church does not look that different from the world. I believe that's the Holy Spirit at work. The key is not to respond by cloaking ourselves in spirituality or good works just to prove to ourselves or to others that we are not of the world, or not so bad. Instead we have to focus and stay focused on the Lord and what He wants. If we'll just do that as individual believers, there will be a big difference.

But sadly, what happens too often (once is too often) is that Christians will become aware of these kinds of things, and instead of receiving that awareness as wisdom and turning to the Lord to seek more of His wisdom and praying without ceasing, they fall into the trap of agreeing with the accuser of the brethen. Meaning, we throw in with Satan and condemn our own.

So where is accountability in all of this? If we truly love our brothers in Christ and therefore have an atittude of restoration, as the Lord does, then we wil not want to accuse them when we see behaviors that are not Godly, but rather we can aproach them in love and hold them accountable for their actions that fall short of what the Lord instructs. Of course that means that we have to be familiar with what the Lord instructs. What also seems to happen too often is that Christians are held accountable only when sins of the body occur such as addictions or sexual sin. yet often there needs to be accountability for such things as unkindness, bad attitudes, gossip, or dissension within the body of Christ.

Very well put bzirk. I tend to have to agree with you.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/16/2008 6:43:08 PM)

My dad's a nice guy. He has worked hard and lived in integrity...and it took 67 years before he was saved.

Could it be that good works as an unsaved person hinders their ability to accept Jesus as Lord?

I wonder....does the holiness doctrine reinforce the belief that being good saves you?



BibleL7 -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 2:12:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

My dad's a nice guy. He has worked hard and lived in integrity...and it took 67 years before he was saved.

Could it be that good works as an unsaved person hinders their ability to accept Jesus as Lord?

I wonder....does the holiness doctrine reinforce the belief that being good saves you?


Absolutely a problem when people believe they are good already they do not see a need for a savior from sin. They need to learn that they are sinners before they can understand need for a savior.

Holiness doctrine does not reinforce that notion. It simply states that once saved we are to grow into being more like our Lord Jesus whom we follow.



mvic -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 9:56:50 AM)

When Christ walked on this earth, did He tread the higher moral ground and tell everyone He was better than them?

Or did He teach His followers to be humble?

Did He spend time with sinners and un-believers; teaching them, healing them, and leading them to the Kingdom of God?

Or did He come to frequent the "saved" and those needing no forgiveness?

Why is it so difficult for us today to follow His example?



rcjames -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 10:39:19 AM)

Church is a place for Christians to mature as so aptly put in;

(Eph 4:11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

(Eph 4:15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

(Eph 4:16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

To mature specifically "unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"



Thanks
RC



doinkdom -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 10:56:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusieQ567
Hi guys, This is kind of a spin off of a discussion in another thread, and wanted you all to weigh in. We should surround ourselves with people that are healthy for us obviously, in our friendships, and also associate with people of faith and worship regularly....but what is our perspective when you begin to see a pattern....a pattern in which the people you know, backpack with etc...have a higher moral code and sense of integrity than some of the Christians you know? This should not be. It is an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. Our unsaved friends are quite aware of the gaps also. Jesus said You will know them by their fruit. If you have an adversarial posture,or have a need to just set somebody straight, please do not contribute to this thread. It is meant for the purpse of courteous, respectful, christian discussion only. Thanks very much for reading! :)


It makes me very sad that so many Christians in the past, present and surely in the future have, and will perpetuate this.

I even blogged on it[8|] when I read something in a magazine that set me off.

I don't think it's about being perfect, or watering down the word of God. I think it's about our heart attitude being so far away from God's heart.

God's heart is for His people, those who are with Him now and those who are still wandering in the dessert. God uses people as His vessels and until many hearts are changed, we will continue to see what you describe.



bzirk -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 11:04:55 AM)

RC,

You've touched on a common problem -- Christians not distingusihing the standard for the church from that of the world. As Christians we are to expect the world to be sinful and callous to the things of the Lord. But Christians have another awareness and standard. Often I hear Christians applying the same accountability to Christians that they do to the world, and the scriptures don't teach that. They teach a call to a higher standard for Christians-- as you've referenced in part from Ephesians. That standard certainly includes this as well:

quote:

Ephesians 4

17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
20You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.


I do thiink Christians can too often be impatient with each other. We find something we don't like and instead of praying about it and having an attitude of restoration, we become accusers. But naturally we salve ourselves with great justification for the accusation. [8|] Thankfully, the Lord has been so good as to show me my scummy self apart from Him, and how He does not accuse but rather chastises as a loving father and certainly He is patient.



doinkdom -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 11:06:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk
I do thiink Christians can too often be impatient with each other. We find something we don't like and instead of praying about it and having an attitude of restoration, we become accusers. But naturally we salve ourselves with great justification for the accusation. [8|] Thankfully, the Lord has been so good as to show me my scummy self apart from Him, and how He does not accuse but rather chastises as a loving father and certainly He is patient.


yep, it's like "I learned this last week and then told you about it 5 minutes ago, so how come you haven't changed already?" You've had almost 6 minutes now....



bzirk -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 11:15:02 AM)

Yeah, that's some of it, Connie. BTW, I refer to that as the "I've eaten why are you hungery' syndrome. [8D]

The underlying problem is that talk is cheap. It's so easy for Christians to take issue with the big picture while not addressing their own situations (both personally and in their local Church). To really be in relationship with someone and go down the road with them and encounter that person's messes and as well as their own messes and still seek the Lord and be accountable and hold others accountable? Oh, man, most will run like the wind from that, 'cause it's work and often painful work. It really requires some skin in the pan, as it were. Talking about a sistuation at large requires nothing but a little time.



.



doinkdom -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 11:32:03 AM)

Agreed...our motto, tagline, mission...whatever you call it for our church was just recently approved by the author of a book with a similar title

Oasis...where relationships are a mess worth making

Our prayer is we meet that statement.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 12:03:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusieQ567
but what is our perspective when you begin to see a pattern....a pattern in which the people you know, backpack with etc...have a higher moral code and sense of integrity than some of the Christians you know?

This happened a lot when I was in the old church. When I first really acknowledged/admitted it, I was in my early twenties, and the difference between the "us" and the "them" was shocking. We were actually taught from the pulpit that we were the "cream of the crop," and that specific term was used at the pulpit.

But what I saw -- reality -- was very different. I met many people outside of that church, some of whom were believers and some of whom were complete unbelievers, who simply were better people than way too many of those in that church. I would really like to believe that this was because I was comparing young or new believers with these "outside" people, but that is not the case. I am talking about well-seasoned people -- people who had saying they were believers for years, people who were leaders, people who were pastors.

Is it because I am older and hopefully more mature now that my present fellow congregants, in a different place of worship, live completely differently from those of the old church? What I see now, of those who do not claim to be believers, is that they truly not up to the standards and integrity of those where I attend now. It is not that they are perfect, because they certainly are not -- and I know I am very far from perfect. It's just that where I attend now, they don't fake it: they are who they claim to be; they live what they say. TI think that the difference is that they spend no time on covering up what they really are but strive to attain what they ought to be.



growingseed -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 12:11:08 PM)

I believe that their are alot of people who mistake leaves for fruits.



Lufia -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 8:35:49 PM)

quote:

My dad's a nice guy. He has worked hard and lived in integrity...and it took 67 years before he was saved.

Could it be that good works as an unsaved person hinders their ability to accept Jesus as Lord?

I wonder....does the holiness doctrine reinforce the belief that being good saves you?


It certainly was my case. I taught that i didn't need a savior because i was a good person. It took me 46 years to realize it!



bzirk -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 9:20:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

Agreed...our motto, tagline, mission...whatever you call it for our church was just recently approved by the author of a book with a similar title

Oasis...where relationships are a mess worth making

Our prayer is we meet that statement.


I like that. [:D]



bzirk -> RE: Please weigh in on this... (7/17/2008 9:25:37 PM)

My father-in-law has the same testimony -- thinking he was good enough because he did so much right, and he was and is a great guy. He was 43 years old when he became a Christian. My husband, who became a Christian about 5-6 years before his dad, used to despair as a kid, "Lord, I hope you can save my dad, but I don't see how, since he doesn't seem to need you."

My father-in-law read Mere Christianity and also went to a James Robison Crusade not long after where he walked the aisle one night, made his profession for the Lord, and he hasn't been the same since. I love the way he puts his testimony, "I was like a polished pair of shoes. I could keep the tops clean, but the soles were always getting dirty." Thankfully, he came to the end of his "righteousness."



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