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Peter_Gunn -> Problems with new ministry leadership (7/15/2008 3:10:36 PM)

We are embarking on a scouting-type children's/youth ministry at our two-year old church. There is inbedded training with the programs we are working with and it is a requirement that each and every leader complete the training. We have been blessed with enough adults willing to step forward and take on leadership roles in this area.

However, there are a couple of women who have basically let it be known that they will only be available for the hour and a half on Sundays and will do none of the other things being asked of all the leaders. One has refused to be involved in any of the training, opting instead to purposely schedule out of town trips for the one day we are conducting our main training. She has said, though, that she is willing to be trained privately. !!! She also does not have time for any of the activities scheduled outside of the normal Sunday night. She does not work outside the home and does not have minor children at home.

Another lady (the assistant leader to the first mentioned) can only come on Sunday occasionally and her volunteered leadership is very low on her priority list. At least she was honest enough to volunteer for only an assistant position, stating that she didn't "want to be the main leader" for these girls, but wanted it to be something for her and her daughter (age 13) to do together.

We did not ask anyone to take a position...that is completely out of line with our thinking. We made the need known when we announced the new ministry. All the leaders we have are there because they stepped forward and volunteered. Other than these two, we have had excellent cooperation from the leaders. All others have enthusiastically joined in and have committed to training.

Both of these women do not seem to take their proposed committment seriously. What do I do???



pbaribeault -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/15/2008 6:38:33 PM)

I don't think you should be concerned about people who are willing to help but can't or won't make the full commitment that would be ideal. They are entitled to personal boundaries and their own set of priorities (in light of their sense of calling in the Christian life) and have told you what they are willing to do quite clearly.

They have not committed and then 'dropped the ball', but simply asked you if you want the amount of help they are willing to give.

Just answer them 'yes' or 'no' (Do you want the amount of help they are willing to give?) depending on whether you want some 'helpers' that are not fully trained or committed to the full extent of the program, or if you would rather do without. That's your call.

It seems to me that they take their proposed commitment plenty seriously, and have made it very clear that they are not going to go beyond it to what you are proposing that you would like their commitment to be.



Roberta_ -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/15/2008 8:14:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Both of these women do not seem to take their proposed committment seriously. What do I do???


Thank God and them. Then decide if you'll still be able to use them or not.



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/15/2008 9:41:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbaribeault

I don't think you should be concerned about people who are willing to help but can't or won't make the full commitment that would be ideal. They are entitled to personal boundaries and their own set of priorities (in light of their sense of calling in the Christian life) and have told you what they are willing to do quite clearly.

They have not committed and then 'dropped the ball', but simply asked you if you want the amount of help they are willing to give.

Just answer them 'yes' or 'no' (Do you want the amount of help they are willing to give?) depending on whether you want some 'helpers' that are not fully trained or committed to the full extent of the program, or if you would rather do without. That's your call.

It seems to me that they take their proposed commitment plenty seriously, and have made it very clear that they are not going to go beyond it to what you are proposing that you would like their commitment to be.


I wish they had been that "upfront" about their desires. The only thing that was made clear was from the woman that only wants to be an assistant...a very understandable desire and not one I have a problem with. The other lady was all about being a leader and doing everything "by the book". Now, she's scheduling other stuff on top of me, refuses to be trained and I may have a group of girls with no leader...thus we'll have no group!

I mis-spoke when I said they had "let it be known"...a misleading phrase. I should have said "...their behavior has let me know...".

And, yes, you're right...we all must have a personal life, aside from our ministries. But, when the expectataions are laid out in advance, as I always am careful to do for anyone who volunteers, one should be honest about their level of committment.

I am happy to have volunteers that only help on the occasional basis...you always need extra hands when dealing with young people. But, with such a small cache of leaders already, it's important to have enough fully-trained, "main" leaders starting out to get the thing going. If we don't have enough leaders, and I know well enough in advance, I can re-work the group.

What I have is a person that wants to be a "leader" on her own terms, but doesn't have the gumption to up and say so! So I get to read between the lines and be the bad guy...and I hate that. By having her play these games and expecting me to read her mind, I'm wrong no matter what I do.



crankius -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/15/2008 10:19:13 PM)

I don't know your entire situation, so my response may or may not be helpful.

quote:

What I have is a person that wants to be a "leader" on her own terms, but doesn't have the gumption to up and say so! So I get to read between the lines and be the bad guy...and I hate that. By having her play these games and expecting me to read her mind, I'm wrong no matter what I do.


So don't play the games.

Be direct, honest, helpful, kind, gracious. Does she want to be a leader or not? Just ask her directly. Tell her you take no offense to her answer either way--you just want to know exactly what she is thinking and how available she is, so that a "best fit" can be made for both her and the ministry.

quote:

But, when the expectataions are laid out in advance, as I always am careful to do for anyone who volunteers, one should be honest about their level of committment.


One of the difficult aspects of being a leader is deciding how to reinforce the expectations. Were the expectations too high, or were they reasonable? If they were reasonable, stick to them.

Open honest communication is key. You have to be the leader and openly ask her and talk with her. Perhaps there has been a misunderstanding or perhaps she has changed her mind...you can't know until you ask, with grace and kindness.



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/15/2008 10:24:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

I don't know your entire situation, so my response may or may not be helpful.

quote:

What I have is a person that wants to be a "leader" on her own terms, but doesn't have the gumption to up and say so! So I get to read between the lines and be the bad guy...and I hate that. By having her play these games and expecting me to read her mind, I'm wrong no matter what I do.


So don't play the games.

Be direct, honest, helpful, kind, gracious. Does she want to be a leader or not? Just ask her directly. Tell her you take no offense to her answer either way--you just want to know exactly what she is thinking and how available she is, so that a "best fit" can be made for both her and the ministry.

quote:

But, when the expectataions are laid out in advance, as I always am careful to do for anyone who volunteers, one should be honest about their level of committment.


One of the difficult aspects of being a leader is deciding how to reinforce the expectations. Were the expectations too high, or were they reasonable? If they were reasonable, stick to them.

Open honest communication is key. You have to be the leader and openly ask her and talk with her. Perhaps there has been a misunderstanding or perhaps she has changed her mind...you can't know until you ask, with grace and kindness.


Good, sound advice. Thank you, Crankius.



SusieQ567 -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/16/2008 1:14:48 PM)

Peter ... I was involved for many years in youth ministry. While you can't opt them out really, you can state the policies of your ministry. If someone isnt available for training, they wouldnt be included as leaders for me. I would join the girls with another group, seek out other leaders kindly and go from there.



rcjames -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/16/2008 1:57:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gu
However, there are a couple of women who have basically let it be known that they will only be available for the hour and a half on Sundays and will do none of the other things being asked of all the leaders. One has refused to be involved in any of the training, opting instead to purposely schedule out of town trips for the one day we are conducting our main training. She has said, though, that she is willing to be trained privately. !!! She also does not have time for any of the activities scheduled outside of the normal Sunday night. She does not work outside the home and does not have minor children at home.


There are those in all congregations that want to help, but are time constrained. A good leader will use them when and where they are available. So use them when and where they are available.

There will be some who can come to training whenever you want them to; so use them in that area and give them more responsibility. But please do not diss those who feel that at the present time they cannot make the "commitment that you want them to make". Sometimes with a little patience and training these folks will evently turn out to be you best leaders.

Give the important postisiton to those who can be trained and have a lot of time for your program; but do not neglet those who feel they do not have the time at the present.

Thanks
RC



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/16/2008 2:23:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gu
However, there are a couple of women who have basically let it be known that they will only be available for the hour and a half on Sundays and will do none of the other things being asked of all the leaders. One has refused to be involved in any of the training, opting instead to purposely schedule out of town trips for the one day we are conducting our main training. She has said, though, that she is willing to be trained privately. !!! She also does not have time for any of the activities scheduled outside of the normal Sunday night. She does not work outside the home and does not have minor children at home.


There are those in all congregations that want to help, but are time constrained. A good leader will use them when and where they are available. So use them when and where they are available.

There will be some who can come to training whenever you want them to; so use them in that area and give them more responsibility. But please do not diss those who feel that at the present time they cannot make the "commitment that you want them to make". Sometimes with a little patience and training these folks will evently turn out to be you best leaders.

Give the important postisiton to those who can be trained and have a lot of time for your program; but do not neglet those who feel they do not have the time at the present.

Thanks
RC


I totally agree and have operated that way with my leaders in the past. I just get very frustrated when someone leads me down one path, then changes directions!

And, SusieQ...that's where we're headed! Good advice!



dianetavegia -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/16/2008 2:30:37 PM)

Those women unwilling to attend training would become my 'listeners'. They can chart Bible Verse accomplishments and help serve any snacks, help with crafts, etc., but would not be assigned any regular position.

I worked in AWANA for 8 years and we had many people who wanted to be involved on THEIR terms.



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/16/2008 3:21:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dianetavegia

Those women unwilling to attend training would become my 'listeners'. They can chart Bible Verse accomplishments and help serve any snacks, help with crafts, etc., but would not be assigned any regular position.

I worked in AWANA for 8 years and we had many people who wanted to be involved on THEIR terms.


That's where most of my experience comes from. We're on the same page!



Roberta_ -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/16/2008 8:35:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dianetavegia
I worked in AWANA for 8 years and we had many people who wanted to be involved on THEIR terms.


For several years I handled all of the minitries from preschool to jr. high. It's always that way. However, there are always others who are willing to go above and beyond.



buckifn -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/16/2008 11:00:22 PM)

I respectfully disagree with some who say "take what you can get" I believe when we are giving our services to God we should be giving our very best.

I don't know of any employer who would say " oh don't worry if you can only be here 3 of the 5 days you are scheduled weekly" or 4 of the 10 hours... do you?

Why is it we always accept the lower standard for ministry and think we are doing God a favor?

I'm sorry, but we are not doing God or the children we serve a favor by setting a bad example of leadership.


If you can't find qualified leaders readily available within your church pray and ask God to send them in. IMO when you settle for 2nd best you usually receive 2nd best...and everyone around knows it.

Trust God enough to ask Him to let this be the best program it can possibly be and to send you the absolute best helper's possible.



Roberta_ -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/16/2008 11:12:07 PM)

I know that I'm in a position where I would only be able to dedicate a small amount of time to a ministry. If I tried to do more than that, I'd burn out and the ministry would suffer.



BibleL7 -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/16/2008 11:48:15 PM)

You said that leadership requires certain training so each person in leadership position needs to meet those requirements. In any organization if training time is required for a position then only those who can get the training can fill position. Really is that simple. Those who wish to help and can not get training can help but can not be in leadership positions. If you try to make exceptions here or there then it creates bad feelings from those who meet the requirements against the one who did not. I know some will say it should not be that way in Christian ministry but it will show in attitudes of either they will be upset that favoritism is shown or they will wonder why they should have had to do the requirement if someone else didn't. Is your choice to possibly hurt feelings of the two which is possible they might understand or you can sabotage the entire ministry.



macokjc -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/17/2008 10:53:41 AM)

I also have been involved in AWANA for many years, and this is a training-intensive program. It is the children who suffer when people are not willing/able to go through the training. This year we are revamping the training required, and everybody will be required to complete it. I think that service on "my" terms only is NOT truly service. Where is the sacrifice? Would a music leader have people in choir who only showed up to sing, not to practice?

Only you know these people, and if you believe their heart is pure and selfless, than you can probably make it work. If their motives are not, than you can politely tell them that this might not be the best place for them.



pbaribeault -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/17/2008 5:15:09 PM)

I'm not clear about the opinions that suggest that people who only allow a limited time for a certain ministry are somehow copping out on serving God. God has called us to use our whole lives to glorify Him. Employment, resting, volunteering, reading, writing, parenting, praying, housekeeping, evangelism, relationship building, recreation, personal time, amusement. eating and sleeping are all a part of a legitimate life-full ministry. I don't see how doing some service one place and some service another way is a problem as far as the whole of serving God.

If my Church started a new ministry, I'd figure out how much time and effort I could give, then ask if that chunk of time was wanted by the leadership. I would not say, "All my time is yours, how much do you want?" then run myself ragged "serving". Slothfulness is a vice, as is working too much to support a materialistic lifestyle. If these things are the problem with the semi-leaders, then they need someone to pastor them to a better level... But holding different areas of ministry in good balance is godly good sense in a life-full ministry.

This is just like someone who can play the piano every second week. You take them or leave them at your own convenience, but you don't deride their willingness to do half as much as you would like.

And, I hate to tell you, but many Churches do without music leaders or choirs that practice at all. Impromptu choirs are nice too. Especially if there are more people singing in them than listening to them. Lots of Churches don't have the option to accept only the service of the deeply dedicated. Nobody does the janitor jobs all year, but many do it for a month. We say thanks. Especially those of us who don't take a month. We say thanks a lot.



buckifn -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/17/2008 9:43:05 PM)

quote:

I'm not clear about the opinions that suggest that people who only allow a limited time for a certain ministry are somehow copping out on serving God.


The requirement for commitment was made clear. The people who said they would be leaders suddenly decided after the fact that they are not willing to do what is being asked of the leader.

I think it's very clear what the problem is.



pbaribeault -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/18/2008 9:52:03 AM)

Yes, accidental over-commitment is a problem -- for both sides. Wishful thinking, poor communication and differences of perspective all play into it. Life happens and it has to be dealt with.

I just don't see how it's tied up with philosophy of ministry, or how it is being understood as failure to serve God in an appropriately dedicated manner.



buckifn -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/18/2008 3:51:27 PM)

quote:

just don't see how it's tied up with philosophy of ministry, or how it is being understood as failure to serve God in an appropriately dedicated manner.


pb - did you get the part where they already knew before committing to be a leader what the requirements were?

That is not accidental imo.



macokjc -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/18/2008 4:56:23 PM)

It is true that some people over-commit their time, and you don't want to burn out people. However, that doesn't help this particular problem. If your church doesn't hold regular choir practices - then it's not a problem if you are not there.

However, in the case of our ministry (AWANA); people who have no idea what is going on and who cannot commit to being there leave us in the lurch. That really puts the children at a disadvantage and leaves the club in disarray and confusion. That is not what God intended and he himself is not the author of confusion.



pbaribeault -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/18/2008 6:39:46 PM)

Well, to be intentional it would have to be, "I know I can't do this, but I'm going to say I will, because I like to mess with people."

Misjudgment of your own capacities and/or failure to be able to imagine what was "clearly" communicated as the commitment level and/or a change in other things going on in one's life...

These are just as accidental as any other way of getting into this mess. Where's the empathy?



buckifn -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/18/2008 10:14:06 PM)

ok if your assessment is right then I would still say we would gladly welcome you as a helper, but you cannot meet the qualifications of being a leader for this specific project.

I believe we lead by example and that includes commitment. I don't think it would even be fair to ask others to give something I am not first willing to give myself.



aquilusone -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/20/2008 9:24:20 PM)

quote:

We are embarking on a scouting-type children's/youth ministry at our two-year old church. There is inbedded training with the programs we are working with and it is a requirement that each and every leader complete the training. We have been blessed with enough adults willing to step forward and take on leadership roles in this area.

However, there are a couple of women who have basically let it be known that they will only be available for the hour and a half on Sundays and will do none of the other things being asked of all the leaders. One has refused to be involved in any of the training, opting instead to purposely schedule out of town trips for the one day we are conducting our main training. She has said, though, that she is willing to be trained privately. !!! She also does not have time for any of the activities scheduled outside of the normal Sunday night. She does not work outside the home and does not have minor children at home.

Another lady (the assistant leader to the first mentioned) can only come on Sunday occasionally and her volunteered leadership is very low on her priority list. At least she was honest enough to volunteer for only an assistant position, stating that she didn't "want to be the main leader" for these girls, but wanted it to be something for her and her daughter (age 13) to do together.

We did not ask anyone to take a position...that is completely out of line with our thinking. We made the need known when we announced the new ministry. All the leaders we have are there because they stepped forward and volunteered. Other than these two, we have had excellent cooperation from the leaders. All others have enthusiastically joined in and have committed to training.

Both of these women do not seem to take their proposed committment seriously. What do I do???
Peter Gunn

I understand how you are feeling. My Husband and I are in leadership in our church. We have seen people just like you have described (they want to be leaders but don't want to put in the time for training). If your Ladies don't want to meet the requirements of the training then they need to be spoken to in a kind way and be told the requirement again. If they are not able at that time to make a committment to the necessary, training they need to be asked to step out of the leadership position, but should be encouraged to participate as much as they are able in the ministry.

I understand that sometimes things come up and people cannot alway fulfill their obligations. They should not be critisized for the difficulties that come up, but should be encouraged.

It is a very difficult position to be in. Also it is easy to give advice and tell you what to do when we are not there in the situation. I hope that you will be able to work out a solution that well allow you all to work together in the peace of God.



ChristianCommando -> RE: Problems with new ministry leadership (7/20/2008 10:39:08 PM)

Here is my suggestion-

*1st- When you offered those positions for volunteer Leaders, did those two women tell you right out from the start they would not be able to spend much time serving in that capacity or the unwillingness to fulfill the obligations required for those positions?

If they did, they should not have been chosen. If there are requirements that need to be met, people with the time, interest and ability should have been chosen. But, if this did not come out until later, they should have been thanked for thier time and interest, but then let loose from those positions and others with the time, interest and ability should've been chosen.

Thing is, if God has guided those who started this program to set these peramiters to be met, they need to be met. A mission for God cannot be carried out as God would have, if those chosen to help are not committed as they should be for God in it.

Granted, no one is absolutely perfect fit for any mission. We all have our faults. Yet, fit is not as important as committment. Committment normally shows people willing to spend the time needed, accept the training necessary and interest to seek God's guidance thru it, not set personal limits that are not realistic or not God guided for the position volunteered for.

I'm not saying this is true, but the description of these two women volunteering for those positions, comes across as more interest in having a position of authority more for "show" than for true Godly committment to serve God as it should be in this instance. Otherwise, they'd have greater interest and a willingness to try and work around obstacles than to outright reject whats need altogether.

My suggestion would be to lovingly and politely release them from thos obligations and seek out two other people who feel a committment to God for serving in such positions and capacity.

God declares we are to use good Godly common sense discerning things. How far would any of God's missions get, if all the wrong people were volunteered into those positions? wouldn't take long for them to fall apart and be of no use at all.

This is why, Godly guidance is prayed for to be used in choosing those leaders, even if volunteers. The list of names should've been prayed over, till God enlightened you to which ones to choose from.

God Bless!!



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