Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?!

Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (Full Version)

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slimon11 -> Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 12:22:24 AM)
I will go here, as I did join this forum to anonymously ask questions... I live close to a reservation and I was recently talking to a Native American Christian, a Bible reading, Jesus loving, spiritual leader in his community. Certain drugs are not illegal on the reservation including marijuana and other psychoactive plants. He explained that some of these plants are used on certain occasions. “used it to facilitate visionary states of consciousness during spiritual healing sessions.” He used Genesis 1:11-12 to say that these psychoactive plants are a gift. 11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. What do you guys have to say about that?

VJDTropical -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 12:39:14 AM)
quote: He used Genesis 1:11-12 to say that these psychoactive plants are a gift. 11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. I believe that it talks about the earth itself or in it's fullest is good and that creation is beautiful ( but of course I'm not sure and I may be wrong ) thought not everything God creates is for consumption ... there's posion from snakes and bungle ( ? ) , etc that is very harmful ... I've seen some comentaries from a Christian man whom consumed drugs and he stated that when he was high he was more open to the spiritual world and they wouldn't stop teasing him ... he heard many voices ... demons ... this is dangerous and people shouldn't do this ... of course someone in here has a better answer and a full explanation for these things since I'm only a teenager ( why drugs is unbiblical ) , etc Have a nice day

BerianAardvark -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 5:27:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slimon11 I will go here, as I did join this forum to anonymously ask questions... I live close to a reservation and I was recently talking to a Native American Christian, a Bible reading, Jesus loving, spiritual leader in his community. Certain drugs are not illegal on the reservation including marijuana and other psychoactive plants. He explained that some of these plants are used on certain occasions. “used it to facilitate visionary states of consciousness during spiritual healing sessions.” He used Genesis 1:11-12 to say that these psychoactive plants are a gift. 11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. What do you guys have to say about that? It matters little what I have to say about it, what does scripture say about it? One of the words translated sorcery in the New Testament (see verses cited below) is φαρμακεία pharmakeia far-mak-i'-ah From G5332; medication (“pharmacy”), that is, (by extension) magic (literal or figurative): - sorcery, witchcraft. Which refers to the pagan practices of using mind/consciousness altering drugs as a religious "tool". There are good usages in medicine, and that is what is being referred to as good. As far as I have been able to discover there is nowhere in the scriptures that the use of drugs to alter metal states as part of religious activity is spoken of in any way favorably, indeed, such practices are associated with some of the worst behaviors: Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21) The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts. (Revelation 9:20-21) and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery. (Revelation 18:23) "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8) Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. (Revelation 22:15) In every case in the above verses the word translated as sorcery was φαρμακεία pharmakeia. Tim

Jet_A_Jockey -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 9:22:42 AM)
Another thing to think about is the importance of having a sober mind. 1thes5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. and of course 1 peter 5:8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. If God wishes to give any of us revelation there is no reason why we must take any magic mushroom or wacky plant to hear it.

rcjames -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 10:10:47 AM)
Drug use is drug use; no matter what excuses or "Reasons" foks try to use to justify the drug's use. Thanks RC

redeemedsaint -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 10:13:27 AM)
He's having an experience all right, but not of the spiritual kind[;)]

Kat_D -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 10:42:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slimon11 What do you guys have to say about that? I'd say there is nothing some won't do to justify their sin. 16 "I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." -Galatians 5 Smoking dope could qualify as "drunkenness" and also "sorcery" (derived from Greek word, "pharmakeia") which translates to using drugs. Therefore, smoking dope is fulfilling the lust of the flesh and contrary to the Spirit of God. So, in light of that, I would say that to justify his use of dope with the argument that it draws him closer to God is ludicrous.

McFatty -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 11:31:12 AM)
Drug use, in most cases, is probably not the right thing to do. I refuse to judge a man I simply see using drugs, though. It's very possible to relieve medical conditions with drugs which have a bad stigma. Drugs are not necessarily the right way to go about it, but judging someone off the bat isn't the way to go about it either.

URForgiven -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 12:30:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slimon11 I will go here, as I did join this forum to anonymously ask questions... I live close to a reservation and I was recently talking to a Native American Christian, a Bible reading, Jesus loving, spiritual leader in his community. Certain drugs are not illegal on the reservation including marijuana and other psychoactive plants. He explained that some of these plants are used on certain occasions. “used it to facilitate visionary states of consciousness during spiritual healing sessions.” He used Genesis 1:11-12 to say that these psychoactive plants are a gift. 11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. What do you guys have to say about that? quote: Christian I would say the gentleman is mixing his native American beliefs with those of Christianity. Which is not Christianity at all. You do not get closer to God or become more spiritual by altering your mind chemically. All you get is high, and a high person does not receive clarity, a high person receives only his own hallucination. It is the Devils playground. God simply does not need the help of chemicals to enlighten us. If you are a Christian, you are to be led by the Holy Sprit who now indwells you. Do you truly suppose the Spirit will lead someone to get high? Peace

McFatty -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 12:33:43 PM)
I don't believe the Spirit will lead me to get high (in the way described above), but I won't judge someone who truly believes that for themselves.

Kat_D -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 1:26:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: McFatty Drug use, in most cases, is probably not the right thing to do. I refuse to judge a man I simply see using drugs, though. It's very possible to relieve medical conditions with drugs which have a bad stigma. Drugs are not necessarily the right way to go about it, but judging someone off the bat isn't the way to go about it either. Yeah, that's the trouble with the church today, most don't judge sin. Oh no!...heaven forbid they might offend someone.[:'(] That's why we have all these threads with Christians not knowing it is a sin to fornicate with their boy/girlfriend, do drugs, practice homosexuality, get divorced, etc., etc., etc. It's a cinch this guy isn't smoking dope because he has cancer and other than that, everyone I ever knew who smoked it (myself included), smoked it for one reason...to get HIGH! 11"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. -Ephesians 5:11 "1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?" I Corinthians 6

bluestone -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 1:34:41 PM)
Blending religions brings nothing but trouble, and a lack of firm truth. You don't need drugs to worship or draw closer to God. I think it is a bunch of hooey.

Apparition -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 3:26:57 PM)
I do not think drugs are inherently bad in and of themselves but moreso the reasons we might take them. I also do not believe any of the passages mentioned here apply to marijuana or mushrooms, and I will also say that I believe they can get us in a frame of mind to be more open to hearing God's voice, especially when taken with the right frame of mind (which is obviously not of that to 'party', or just for the sake of tripping) Sure the Bible says that not everything is meant to be consumed by man or to be used for healing, but I highly doubt that marijuana, a 'drug' that has been outlawed only since the 20th century due to racist propaganda and misinformation and has in recent years been shown to have many beneficial health effects, fits this bill for something we should not use. The Book of Romans also refers to us not judging or condemning people for what they eat, whether they be vegetarians or meat-eaters, and I think the same thing is true based on what you want to arbitrarily call a 'drug.' My own personal testimony: My experience with marijuana and mushrooms has led me down the path of finding God. I don't use 'drugs' anymore because I have gained what I can from them and they served their purpose for me, and I was led to move on. But one thing I'm convicted of is that they are not against the Bible's teachings.

WesP -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 3:28:11 PM)
quote: It's a cinch this guy isn't smoking dope because he has cancer and other than that, everyone I ever knew who smoked it (myself included), smoked it for one reason...to get HIGH! [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif][sm=icon_smile_faint.gif] He is having truly moving experiences! [sm=tiefighter.gif]

WesP -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 3:32:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apparition I do not think drugs are inherently bad in and of themselves but moreso the reasons we might take them. I also do not believe any of the passages mentioned here apply to marijuana or mushrooms, and I will also say that I believe they can get us in a frame of mind to be more open to hearing God's voice, especially when taken with the right frame of mind (which is obviously not of that to 'party', or just for the sake of tripping) Sure the Bible says that not everything is meant to be consumed by man or to be used for healing, but I highly doubt that marijuana, a 'drug' that has been outlawed only since the 20th century due to racist propaganda and misinformation and has in recent years been shown to have many beneficial health effects, fits this bill for something we should not use. The Book of Romans also refers to us not judging or condemning people for what they eat, whether they be vegetarians or meat-eaters, and I think the same thing is true based on what you want to arbitrarily call a 'drug.' My own personal testimony: My experience with marijuana and mushrooms has led me down the path of finding God. I don't use 'drugs' anymore because I have gained what I can from them and they served their purpose for me, and I was led to move on. But one thing I'm convicted of is that they are not against the Bible's teachings. Apparition, In light of your defense of "consciousness-affecting" herbage, how do you reconcile your viewpoint with biblical verses that teach us to remain sober and aware? A short circuit in a neurological pathway does not equate to expanse of thought. It seems that way because the speed of thinking is erroded so badly that normality is a pipe dream (no pun intended!).

Apparition -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 3:51:49 PM)
How can one without God truly claim to be sober and aware? Have you ever used marijuana? Are you aware that it's effects are different for everyone and that it's very possible to be sober and aware under its effects? What does it mean to be 'sober' and 'aware'.. ? I've never blacked out or not known what I was doing while on mushrooms or marijuana, unlike with alcohol.

McFatty -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 3:58:09 PM)
There is the part about respecting the law of the land too that we should consider.

Apparition -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 4:04:13 PM)
We live in a land where laws can be challenged, and one is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. The Constitution is also the law of the land (I wish the individuals in office would recognize this fact.. but I digress..)

WesP -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 4:09:45 PM)
quote: How can one without God truly claim to be sober and aware? This question is irrelevant because it does not apply to me. quote: Are you aware that it's effects are different for everyone and that it's very possible to be sober and aware under its effects? I am quite certain that you are not immune to the effects. Look up the effects and tell me that they do not apply to you. quote: I've never blacked out or not known what I was doing while on mushrooms or marijuana, unlike with alcohol. This also is irrelevant. You do not have to exhibit the extreme effects to realize some of them.

Apparition -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 4:21:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WesP quote: How can one without God truly claim to be sober and aware? This question is irrelevant because it does not apply to me. quote: Are you aware that it's effects are different for everyone and that it's very possible to be sober and aware under its effects? I am quite certain that you are not immune to the effects. Look up the effects and tell me that they do not apply to you. quote: I've never blacked out or not known what I was doing while on mushrooms or marijuana, unlike with alcohol. This also is irrelevant. You do not have to exhibit the extreme effects to realize some of them. I submit to you that it does apply to you.. as it applies to everyone. You are also not at all certain about what chemicals affect my body in any manner. I'm well aware of the affects and I have looked them up, but why did you not address the question of what it means to be sober and aware? The very essense of that questions is why my statement about not blacking out with marijuana and mushrooms is relevant.

McFatty -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 4:22:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apparition We live in a land where laws can be challenged, and one is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. The Constitution is also the law of the land (I wish the individuals in office would recognize this fact.. but I digress..) The Constitution says anything that isn't directly mentioned is given to the states to decide. One is PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty. It doesn't mean they ARE innocent. Sure laws can be challenged, but until they're changed, they're still the laws.

WesP -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 4:37:37 PM)
quote: I submit to you that it does apply to you.. as it applies to everyone. You are also not at all certain about what chemicals affect my body in any manner. I'm well aware of the affects and I have looked them up, but why did you not address the question of what it means to be sober and aware? The very essense of that questions is why my statement about not blacking out with marijuana and mushrooms is relevant. In that case, I shall bow out of the discussion. If it has to be a legalistic argument in which insistence upon a specific definition is the only allowable viewpoint, then it is not profitable for me or any others who disagree with your definitions. Peace.

Apparition -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 4:41:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: McFatty quote: ORIGINAL: Apparition We live in a land where laws can be challenged, and one is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. The Constitution is also the law of the land (I wish the individuals in office would recognize this fact.. but I digress..) The Constitution says anything that isn't directly mentioned is given to the states to decide. One is PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty. It doesn't mean they ARE innocent. Sure laws can be challenged, but until they're changed, they're still the laws. And yet laws can still be challenged.

Apparition -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 4:43:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WesP quote: I submit to you that it does apply to you.. as it applies to everyone. You are also not at all certain about what chemicals affect my body in any manner. I'm well aware of the affects and I have looked them up, but why did you not address the question of what it means to be sober and aware? The very essense of that questions is why my statement about not blacking out with marijuana and mushrooms is relevant. In that case, I shall bow out of the discussion. If it has to be a legalistic argument in which insistence upon a specific definition is the only allowable viewpoint, then it is not profitable for me or any others who disagree with your definitions. Peace. It's not a legalistic argument at all.. I'm actually quite happy with allowing YOU to define sober and aware anyway YOU choose, I was merely asking since it was brought up.

McFatty -> RE: Drug use, a spiritual experience?!?! (7/16/2008 4:44:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apparition quote: ORIGINAL: McFatty quote: ORIGINAL: Apparition We live in a land where laws can be challenged, and one is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. The Constitution is also the law of the land (I wish the individuals in office would recognize this fact.. but I digress..) The Constitution says anything that isn't directly mentioned is given to the states to decide. One is PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty. It doesn't mean they ARE innocent. Sure laws can be challenged, but until they're changed, they're still the laws. And yet laws can still be challenged. Okay. We have established this. What is your point?

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