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RE: The face of true evil - 7/17/2008 11:54:26 AM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Well actually I wasn't dumping on Bush. He is just the head bozo in charge. When I said Government, I mean the whole Government, Congress, The Senate, Democrats, Republicans and Bush. But by no means, lets give him a pass since he has watched it happen for 8 years.
Normally I don't blame him for anything. We the people are to blame for most of our own problems. But in this issue, I will blame him.
No, you weren't dumping on GWB in your first post (cow451 was). You dumped on the U.S. and it's gov't. In your latest post you dumped on Bush.
Again, I find it rather pathetic that, in the face of these reports of unspeakable evil by monstrous men in a continent that is steeped in darkness and despair, you would choose to cast blame on the very country that has done the most throughout history to help that continent. Do you see ANY evil, anywhere in the world, that the U.S. has not caused or been complicit in?
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/17/2008 12:28:10 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3962
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
No, you weren't dumping on GWB in your first post (cow451 was).
I beg to differ. "Dumping" would be taking a cheap shot, which I certainly am not above. If you will actually read post # 6, you will note that I am merely pointing out that the current President lacks the skills to lead the type of multinational effort that will be required. The current President has proven himself incapable of managing foreign affairs. That is the overwhelming consensus, not a "dump" on him.
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/17/2008 6:55:58 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
No, you weren't dumping on GWB in your first post (cow451 was).
I beg to differ. "Dumping" would be taking a cheap shot, which I certainly am not above. If you will actually read post # 6, you will note that I am merely pointing out that the current President lacks the skills to lead the type of multinational effort that will be required. The current President has proven himself incapable of managing foreign affairs. That is the overwhelming consensus, not a "dump" on him.
The consensus is to use any opportunity to take a shot at the president for any reason and offer no constructive alternative. You're obviously not above it. I just wonder why you would choose this particular thread to do it.
It's a sad state of affairs, but at least it's not Africa
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/17/2008 7:07:04 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3377
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Look up the depression.
Look up what a true recession was in the 70's.
Stop claiming today is such hard times. Talk about spoiled children.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/17/2008 9:23:15 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Look up the depression.
Look up what a true recession was in the 70's.
Stop claiming today is such hard times. Talk about spoiled children.
Tell that to the thousands losing their jobs every month and those losing their homes. I am sure they will be "comforted" by such knowledge.
BTW, we haven't hit bottom yet either!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/17/2008 10:17:39 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2788
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Though Africa is a large continent, to date, there does not seem to be much of anything in Africa that the rest of the world really needs or wants .
Try oil. Send in the military and we (the USA) will be acussed of just wanting that country's oil.
And just what did Slick Willie do to avert the carnange in Rwanda other than to invite Monica into the Oval Office?
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/17/2008 11:48:45 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1375
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Though Africa is a large continent, to date, there does not seem to be much of anything in Africa that the rest of the world really needs or wants .
Try oil. Send in the military and we (the USA) will be acussed of just wanting that country's oil.
And just what did Slick Willie do to avert the carnange in Rwanda other than to invite Monica into the Oval Office?
Did someone really say we only intervene where there's oil? I wonder if they ever heard of Panama, Grenada, Vietnam, Korea, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Cuba (Kennedy's bay of pigs), just to name a few.
Clinton told the UN to leave Rwanda. He got burned in Somalia and chickened out.
"...Bill Clinton's administration knew Rwanda was being engulfed by genocide in April 1994 but buried the information to justify its inaction, according to classified documents...
Senior officials privately used the word genocide..., but chose not to do so publicly because the president had already decided not to intervene."
let it burn
April 28, 1994: State Department spokeswoman Christine Shelley is asked whether what is happening in Rwanda is a genocide. She responds,
"...the use of the term 'genocide' has a very precise legal meaning, although it's not strictly a legal determination. There are other factors in there as well."
just say no to Rwanda
Calling it genocide would have mandated that the UN take actions and Clinton didn't want any part of it.
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 1:22:15 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Fair question! I think the types of steps that need to be taken are a drastic economic boycott like the type that caused South Africa to rescind apartheid. No troops were needed there. But unfortunately other countries (including the west) will do business with those countries if there is a buck to be made.
If the banks froze the assets of these countries these guys would find their collective heads on a stick since their thugs, ahem, loyal troops like to be paid.
Unfortunately, that will only help with the government troops. The Mai-Mai, Rastas and other militias are not depending on government pay. They live of the local population.
A friend of mine travelled in the area and had contact with the Mai-Mai (part of a research project). What he old me is the stuff of nightmares.
The reasons for this is much, much more complex than money or cruelty.
I have no solutions - but I cannot phantom that we - the world - can stand by and watch Africa bleed like this.
WormHeart
Bumper stickers... I am sure if just a few more BMW's here in California have a Free Tibet bumper sticker it will magically happen...
John
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 1:25:21 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Look up the depression.
Look up what a true recession was in the 70's.
Stop claiming today is such hard times. Talk about spoiled children.
Tell that to the thousands losing their jobs every month and those losing their homes. I am sure they will be "comforted" by such knowledge.
BTW, we haven't hit bottom yet either!
Most folks who are losing their homes did one of more of the following... ARM loans, interest only, multiple refi's and some up to 125% of the value of the house, and probably fudged the numbers to get the loan in the first place...
John
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 2:41:38 AM
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WormHeart
Posts: 292
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
That said Wormheart, what do you think some of the reasons for this are?
Uh, there are a lot.
Some of them are the means of recruiting these militas use.
The villages of Congo are very hieratical. The elders call the shots, get first pick of food and young men cant get married until they can provide for them. Hence there’s a lot of young men at the bottom of the ladder.
Then the militias come to town.
They give the young man an AK-47 and suddenly *he* is in charge. He wants food, he just take it. He want women, he just take it.
Of course by taking such a choice, he essentially becomes an outcast. Should he regret, he cannot go back to the old life. His future is with the militias.
Other recruiting means is to force children or young men to do unspeakable things to their family. Often the militias will round up potential candidates and force them to kill their parents. Sometimes they have to eat part of them too.
That will obviously traumatise the candidates, and as the article mentioned, lots of these militias are traumatised by the thing they have seen.
They have to be damaged to do the tings they do.
My friend explained that in order to make people do those things, they had to demonise the enemy. Particular when the conflict was a tribal conflict, like in Rwanda. The Hutus constantly referred to the Tutsis as “cockroaches”.
There is a saying in the area – “You don’t kill the snake, you destroy the snakes nest”.
A reference to women and children as legal targets.
Furthermore, once the atrocities are happening, they become mechanised. It becomes sport.
Once they enter the villages, they compete. One day it is about getting the biggest pile of left arms. Other times it is chopping up someone with fewest strikes of a machete.
The cruelty becomes creative.
How can they do maximum emotional damage? Forcing a father to watch them rape his 3-year old daughter, then pouring gasoline over her and burning her alive.
(The Rastas in the article are apparently big fans of this).
In the Dafur region families have adopted a truly desperate measure for survival. When night comes, they will switch family members with the other huts, so male and female family isn’t sleeping together.
The Janjaweed rebels have their own sport. They will often give a family an ultimatum. Either the males rape the females of their own family, or the entire family will be slaughtered.
So they switch women. It is bad to be raped, but worse to be raped by you father or brother.
WormHeart
_____________________________
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Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 7:03:03 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Look up the depression.
Look up what a true recession was in the 70's.
Stop claiming today is such hard times. Talk about spoiled children.
Tell that to the thousands losing their jobs every month and those losing their homes. I am sure they will be "comforted" by such knowledge.
BTW, we haven't hit bottom yet either!
Most folks who are losing their homes did one of more of the following... ARM loans, interest only, multiple refi's and some up to 125% of the value of the house, and probably fudged the numbers to get the loan in the first place...
John
So they deserved what they got! Just punishment! Serves them right for allowing themselves to be "led astray"! I'm so thankful to have someone who can see so "clearly" into other's thoughts and actions. [sarc/off] Keep looking for that speck in your brother!
BTW, you can always start a more forceful "Free Tibet" movement! 
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 8:06:53 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3377
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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So...you think we are headed for 25% unemployment...the depression?
Double digit inflation....the 70's recession?
Thousands unemployed? What percentage is 100,000 out of 300 million? You do know that 95% employment rate is exceedingly great?
Doom and gloom.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 9:41:14 AM
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blue1914
Posts: 398
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
That said Wormheart, what do you think some of the reasons for this are?
Uh, there are a lot.
Some of them are the means of recruiting these militas use.
The villages of Congo are very hieratical. The elders call the shots, get first pick of food and young men cant get married until they can provide for them. Hence there’s a lot of young men at the bottom of the ladder.
Then the militias come to town.
They give the young man an AK-47 and suddenly *he* is in charge. He wants food, he just take it. He want women, he just take it.
Of course by taking such a choice, he essentially becomes an outcast. Should he regret, he cannot go back to the old life. His future is with the militias.
Other recruiting means is to force children or young men to do unspeakable things to their family. Often the militias will round up potential candidates and force them to kill their parents. Sometimes they have to eat part of them too.
That will obviously traumatise the candidates, and as the article mentioned, lots of these militias are traumatised by the thing they have seen.
They have to be damaged to do the tings they do.
My friend explained that in order to make people do those things, they had to demonise the enemy. Particular when the conflict was a tribal conflict, like in Rwanda. The Hutus constantly referred to the Tutsis as “cockroaches”.
There is a saying in the area – “You don’t kill the snake, you destroy the snakes nest”.
A reference to women and children as legal targets.
Furthermore, once the atrocities are happening, they become mechanised. It becomes sport.
Once they enter the villages, they compete. One day it is about getting the biggest pile of left arms. Other times it is chopping up someone with fewest strikes of a machete.
The cruelty becomes creative.
How can they do maximum emotional damage? Forcing a father to watch them rape his 3-year old daughter, then pouring gasoline over her and burning her alive.
(The Rastas in the article are apparently big fans of this).
In the Dafur region families have adopted a truly desperate measure for survival. When night comes, they will switch family members with the other huts, so male and female family isn’t sleeping together.
The Janjaweed rebels have their own sport. They will often give a family an ultimatum. Either the males rape the females of their own family, or the entire family will be slaughtered.
So they switch women. It is bad to be raped, but worse to be raped by you father or brother.
WormHeart
In an attempt to return to the topic of the thread (not a U.S recession by the way), thank you WormHeart for enlightening me on the topic.
I feel like the biggest hypocrite on this (and related world suffering issues) because I don't really know WHAT I can do and more to the point, I haven't really worked to figure out how to change that fact. To claim the name of Christ and for that to be true is a real contradiction according to what I read in my Bible-because I'm sure that there is SOMETHING I can do, even it it's just writing letters to congressmen, etc. Your message was the first real education I have gotten on the realities of that region-and I'll say it, that's really SAD.
I would love to say that I will run out tomorrow (or today) and change that, but I am sorry to say that this would probably not be a true statement. I will say that I am disturbed by it all and I would LIKE to do more-much more than even just sending money (which may be mis-appropriated anyway). I do know that I will be praying for repentance of my current inaction and praying that the Holy Spirit gives me clear understanding and discernment on exactly WHAT I can do. Additionally, I will be praying for the people in that region. Thank you for bringing this to all of our attention-with enough people caring enough, maybe something might happen which helps to bring this all to an end.
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 10:59:29 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3962
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
No, you weren't dumping on GWB in your first post (cow451 was).
I beg to differ. "Dumping" would be taking a cheap shot, which I certainly am not above. If you will actually read post # 6, you will note that I am merely pointing out that the current President lacks the skills to lead the type of multinational effort that will be required. The current President has proven himself incapable of managing foreign affairs. That is the overwhelming consensus, not a "dump" on him.
The consensus is to use any opportunity to take a shot at the president for any reason and offer no constructive alternative. You're obviously not above it. I just wonder why you would choose this particular thread to do it.
It's a sad state of affairs, but at least it's not Africa
Read the posts. I clearly said this problem will require a multinational effort. The inability of the current President and his cabinet to manage complex foreign policy issues is hardly debatable. The next administration will can start anew. The International Court is pursuing war crimes charges. The US will be expected to lead the diplomatic and humanitarian efforts. Previous (Clinton) administration failures in Africa were also the result of the US acting militarily without working with other nations.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 11:59:56 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2537
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Read the posts. I clearly said this problem will require a multinational effort. The inability of the current President and his cabinet to manage complex foreign policy issues is hardly debatable. The next administration will can start anew. The International Court is pursuing war crimes charges. The US will be expected to lead the diplomatic and humanitarian efforts. Previous (Clinton) administration failures in Africa were also the result of the US acting militarily without working with other nations.
I heartily concur with that statement. The ICC action makes the president of Sudan persona non grata now and (supposedly) imprisons him in his own country. I bet he'll be able to visit Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, etc.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 3:34:08 PM
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radiorobert
Posts: 63
Joined: 5/6/2005
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This is an awful atrocity. We must pray that God will move the hearts of those in other nations, including this one, to step in and protect the women and children of that country from the terror of being brutalized at any moment without justice.
Thank you Wormheart for starting this thread. This is something that needs much more attention than it's getting.
I'm going to switch my gear here for a second.......................................................................................
We have only ever invaded one oil producing nation. Iraq. We did that for multiple purposes. We did it twice. Once in 1991, again in 2003.
And I'm surprised it actually only took until the third post in this thread to politize this.
Most other oil producing nations we have never touched. Not that it would be a bad idea. It is in fact the liquid we need for our comfortable survival. You know, kind of like food, water, etc.
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 4:20:17 PM
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Marcus.
Posts: 1332
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Violence in post colonial Africa has been at this level in one country or another since the European countries pulled out. Very few people have paid attention to it. Very few magazines have covered these conflicts besides a few niche magazines (missionary and military magazines). I would rather we free the oppressed than free the oil. The face of Satan is shown in each of these conflicts.
de Oppresso Liber
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 4:36:54 PM
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radiorobert
Posts: 63
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
Violence in post colonial Africa has been at this level in one country or another since the European countries pulled out. Very few people have paid attention to it. Very few magazines have covered these conflicts besides a few niche magazines (missionary and military magazines). I would rather we free the oppressed than free the oil. The face of Satan is shown in each of these conflicts.
Trust me, Iraq is not about freeing up any oil. If that were the case we wouldn't be paying $4 a gallon. And half the oil fields over there wouldn't be out of production right now. We simply could have gotten cozy with Saddam if that were the case.
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 6:38:48 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3377
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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So....we are not to involve ourselves in other countries....but...we are to involve ourselves in other countries....????????
The world view here is...very...selective and might I say, very prejudiced. This thread isn;t about the rape victims. Its just another dig at this administration.
Bad to go into Iraq. Good to save Africa.
Ya think Iraq is bad? Invade these countries in Africa.
I thought american soldier deaths was a bad thing. Its why you hate Bush so much...young men dieing for nothing. Ok, invade Africa and see how many young people die.
All I can say is...hypocrits.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 7:05:22 PM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 475
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
So....we are not to involve ourselves in other countries....but...we are to involve ourselves in other countries....????????
The world view here is...very...selective and might I say, very prejudiced. This thread isn;t about the rape victims. Its just another dig at this administration.
Bad to go into Iraq. Good to save Africa.
Ya think Iraq is bad? Invade these countries in Africa.
I thought american soldier deaths was a bad thing. Its why you hate Bush so much...young men dieing for nothing. Ok, invade Africa and see how many young people die.
All I can say is...hypocrits.
Cool down, my brother.
I am not sure whether or not very many people are advoccating that we-the USA-lead in taking direct military action in Africa.
I think, what is being said is that in the course of history countries of the West have been, out of neccessity, been very selective in where world attention tends to be focused. Unfortuneately, that tends to put what is going in Africa at the bottom of everyone's priority list. However, that does not make what is going on there anymore/ less horrible than what is/may be going on in the rest of the world.
The trouble is how, and when do we raise what is going on in Africa to the same level of concern that we address what is going on in other parts of the world.
I think, to some degree, our President Woodrow Wilson was right in pushing for the formation of an international community responsible for dealing with situations among people groups and countries before they require military action in order to be resolved. However, that international community-the League of Nations, and later the United Nations has shown itself to be totally encapable of dealing with such issues. What they do seem quite able to do is gathering information about countries, people groups and societal issues.
One day Africa will be seen as just important as the rest of the world. Until then, I quess it is up to other, common every day people throughout the rest of the world, to do what they can to have some affect on what goes on there, and let the people there know they have not been forgotten.
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: The face of true evil - 7/18/2008 7:11:31 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
So....we are not to involve ourselves in other countries....but...we are to involve ourselves in other countries....????????
The world view here is...very...selective and might I say, very prejudiced. This thread isn;t about the rape victims. Its just another dig at this administration.
Bad to go into Iraq. Good to save Africa.
Ya think Iraq is bad? Invade these countries in Africa.
I thought american soldier deaths was a bad thing. Its why you hate Bush so much...young men dieing for nothing. Ok, invade Africa and see how many young people die.
All I can say is...hypocrits.
I sympathize with your arguments, SonInme.
Again, back to the NON POLITICAL intent of this thread. Did anybody pick up on the name Rastas? Rastafarianism (if that's the proper term) is basically a religion developed around drug use and reggae music. Drugs HAVE to be a big part of it. What else could so de-humanize the people doing this? I know in Somalia a lot of the violence stemmed from young men addicted to some kind of opiate (quat or chat, I think it's called). Does your friend know anything about this, Wormheart?
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