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macokjc -> ordination (7/17/2008 10:57:40 AM)

Hello! I have some questions about ordination. Who is eligible, when do churches do it, why do they do it? We have a young relative going through this process, and both my husband and I are shaking our heads as this is different from how our church does it and we are just wondering if we are way off base in our thinking. Thanks!



rcjames -> RE: ordination (7/17/2008 11:18:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: macokjc

Hello! I have some questions about ordination. Who is eligible, when do churches do it, why do they do it? We have a young relative going through this process, and both my husband and I are shaking our heads as this is different from how our church does it and we are just wondering if we are way off base in our thinking. Thanks!


There are many different approaches to ordination.

If you would share what is going on with your young relative, you should get a myriad of responses.

Thsnks
RC



macokjc -> RE: ordination (7/17/2008 11:25:53 AM)

Ok - sorry, I just didn't want to go into the whole thing because I don't really have it worked out in my head. KWIM?

My relative is a recent college grad who was somehow invited not to return to the seminary. Since then he has worked at one church as an "unpaid" youth pastor/bus driver. That went sour. A few months later, they joined another church. This church cannot afford to support their one pastor full-time. They went for the first time on Wed., joined the church the next Sunday, and the following Sunday he was calling himself the music pastor and leading the choir and doing special music. They have been in the church for 4 months now, and he calls himself the music pastor and youth pastor. He is supposed to be ordained next month, and they might take him on part-time in January. (Remember their full-time pastor is not paid full-time.) My husband and I are just really scratching our heads at the urgency of the ordination. To us, he is just a volunteer music leader and youth leader. I have another relative who led the music/choir at our church, taught Sunday School, preached when the pastor was gone; and never he never once referred to himself as a pastor. In our current church, the only ones ordained have been missionaries leaving for the field after being on deputation for years. Are we way off based in being concerned about this?



rcjames -> RE: ordination (7/17/2008 11:46:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: macokjc

Ok - sorry, I just didn't want to go into the whole thing because I don't really have it worked out in my head. KWIM?

My relative is a recent college grad who was somehow invited not to return to the seminary. Since then he has worked at one church as an "unpaid" youth pastor/bus driver. That went sour. A few months later, they joined another church. This church cannot afford to support their one pastor full-time. They went for the first time on Wed., joined the church the next Sunday, and the following Sunday he was calling himself the music pastor and leading the choir and doing special music. They have been in the church for 4 months now, and he calls himself the music pastor and youth pastor. He is supposed to be ordained next month, and they might take him on part-time in January. (Remember their full-time pastor is not paid full-time.) My husband and I are just really scratching our heads at the urgency of the ordination. To us, he is just a volunteer music leader and youth leader. I have another relative who led the music/choir at our church, taught Sunday School, preached when the pastor was gone; and never he never once referred to himself as a pastor. In our current church, the only ones ordained have been missionaries leaving for the field after being on deputation for years. Are we way off based in being concerned about this?


There are many Churches (mostly independant ones) that will ordain anyone that will show up and be busy.

I strongly disagree with this and think that Scripure backs my positioln.

In our denomination, as with most; there are educational requirements, a lengthy vetting process, reccomendation process, etc. etc. etc. before ordination is done.

After all the above a ministering permit may be issued (hospitals, nursing homes, and other ministry as requested by the Pastor), then after two years a Ministry liscesse may be issued (the person can be a Pastor, but cannot perforem weddings, etc.), then after another year further training, vetting and education by the denominition in doctrine etc. then the possibility of Ordanination comes into play.

All this sort of goes along with the "Lay hands suddenly on no man" and other examples laid out in the New Testament.

Once a person is Ordained then there can be a certain amount of trust in his abilities, doectrine, and life style to minister God Word's and Pastor God's people.

The Ordained Pastor continues to be accountable to the Conference of the Denomination for their Ordination and it can be revoked for teaching heresy, moral terpitude, etc.

And for Ordained Ministers there is a continuing education process that must be adhered to.

Anyway, that is one way that it is done.

Thanks
RC



doinkdom -> RE: ordination (7/17/2008 11:47:17 AM)

IMO, many denominations ordain their leaders in an effort to "protect" the flock.

Does it always work? not always, but developing a standard of measurement by which a leader can be tested is a form of accountability that many church denominations have in place. And usually that process takes more than a year or two.

I find no fault with the effort to protect the flock from heresy, etc. seeping in. But, I do take issue with some denominations limiting who can serve in the local body based on who is ordained, however that would be a separate thread.[;)]

So the general idea behind ordination is okay imo, the walking out of said requirements is a little "off" sometimes.



JimboFletch -> RE: ordination (7/17/2008 12:17:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

IMO, many denominations ordain their leaders in an effort to "protect" the flock.

Does it always work? not always, but developing a standard of measurement by which a leader can be tested is a form of accountability that many church denominations have in place. And usually that process takes more than a year or two.

I find no fault with the effort to protect the flock from heresy, etc. seeping in. But, I do take issue with some denominations limiting who can serve in the local body based on who is ordained, however that would be a separate thread.[;)]

So the general idea behind ordination is okay imo, the walking out of said requirements is a little "off" sometimes.

Well put and I agree.



Purposeful_Life -> RE: ordination (7/18/2008 8:41:48 AM)

To me [isn't it great that forums have so many varied opinions - there is usually one you can choose that fits!]

ordination is man's attempt to formalise God's calling on a person's life. Whilst hearing what RC says about ordination in his denomination/experience and his concerns about it not going against biblical methods - I fear that the need for education is a man made imposition.

Some of the most positively influential people in my life were uneducated, God called, God empowered men and women who preached real good.

I myself began full time ministry without formal qualification [since have got a Masters Degree but that was for my personal growth more than anything].

Having said that, I can't specifically comment on your relative's specific position - but being called a Pastor may not be the same thing as you would consider ordination.



rcjames -> RE: ordination (7/18/2008 9:50:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Purposeful_Life
I fear that the need for education is a man made imposition.


Do you think that a Pastor should be educated enougb to read and understand Scripture?

Then there is a need for certain educational requirements.

Thanks
RC



armydude -> RE: ordination (7/18/2008 9:53:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Purposeful_Life
I fear that the need for education is a man made imposition.


Do you think that a Pastor should be educated enougb to read and understand Scripture?

Then there is a need for certain educational requirements.

Thanks
RC
That there is. But the presence or lack of a degree does not show that. I've seen people with seminary degrees that just don't get it.
I have to admit it's very frustrating to me when I get turned down for jobs because I don't have a degree in spite of the fact that I have over 3 years of experience on that job! But that's another story.

My only point is that we shouldn't put too much emphasis on degrees to show knowledge. If we do, we're in danger of pride in those degrees.



rcjames -> RE: ordination (7/18/2008 10:02:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude
]That there is. But the presence or lack of a degree does not show that. I've seen people with seminary degrees that just don't get it.
I have to admit it's very frustrating to me when I get turned down for jobs because I don't have a degree in spite of the fact that I have over 3 years of experience on that job! But that's another story.

My only point is that we shouldn't put too much emphasis on degrees to show knowledge. If we do, we're in danger of pride in those degrees.


I agree completely, and when I bring someone in to go through the process of ordination I prefer that they have not gone to seminary.

The continuing education that I referred to in my earlier post usually deal with the changing world around us in the areas of tax laws, counselling liabilituies, worldly trends to be prepared for, etc.

Thanks
RC



armydude -> RE: ordination (7/18/2008 10:05:46 AM)

That much I can agree with. In addition to being prepared, it also shows a desire to learn and that the person doesn't think, "I know it all"... Golly that's annoying...



phreddy -> RE: ordination (7/18/2008 10:59:28 AM)

It might help if you told us the denomination of the church. That way someone with experience in that denomination could answer your questions better.




edited for the spelling errors I caught.



macokjc -> RE: ordination (7/18/2008 4:49:09 PM)

They are King James only Baptists.

I guess part of my problem is that DH and I do not consider him to be old enough or mature enough for this. We are having a hard time supporting it; but yet I don't want to cause a family conflict on something that probably isn't any of my business.



rcjames -> RE: ordination (7/18/2008 5:44:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: macokjc

They are King James only Baptists.

I guess part of my problem is that DH and I do not consider him to be old enough or mature enough for this. We are having a hard time supporting it; but yet I don't want to cause a family conflict on something that probably isn't any of my business.


That would probably make them an independent Baptist group and the rules governing ordination would be in house rules.

So of the independents ordain anyone that is breathing to get them to volunteer and come to Chruch regularly. Most of those "Ordinations" are only recongnized by the issuing Church itself.

That is not a slam; just the truth.

Thanks
RC



colliefan -> RE: ordination (7/18/2008 9:41:15 PM)

quote:


I agree completely, and when I bring someone in to go through the process of ordination I prefer that they have not gone to seminary.


Explain your reasoning. I can understand if they have attended any of the Ivy League places or a place such as Duke. But what about places such as Gordon-Conwell or Wheaton?



rcjames -> RE: ordination (7/19/2008 7:59:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

quote:


I agree completely, and when I bring someone in to go through the process of ordination I prefer that they have not gone to seminary.


Explain your reasoning. I can understand if they have attended any of the Ivy League places or a place such as Duke. But what about places such as Gordon-Conwell or Wheaton?


I really do not want to get into a seminary by seminary comparison of whisch ones are better (and it seems that you thind some of them are not very good), but I will speak to my prior post.

I have known a few men who have benefited greatly from siminary, but many more who have had their spiritual growth stunted or absolutely destroyed by seminary.

Most seminaries, in my opinion, do not teach "Theology" (study of God), but teach "Theologyology" or what i personally call the study of the study of God. Teaching what other men think about what the Bible says God is, and not teaching the person to learn from the Bible theought the Holy Spirit what the Bible says God is.

It shows very strongly in thier conversations, "Well Dr. J. Flavious Fluffyhead says this, or says that". I personally do not care one hoot in a holler what Dr. F. Flavious Fluffyhead says; I want to know what the Bible says.

Now I do not consider all Seminaries are inherently"Bad", just that I had rather work with someone with enough education to communicate well, with a heart for God and the Word, and a God given zeal for evangelism thab someone with a head full of men's ideas and a sheepskin hanging on their wall.

Just my opinion of course.

Thanks
RC



armydude -> RE: ordination (7/19/2008 11:06:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Now I do not consider all Seminaries are inherently"Bad", just that I had rather work with someone with enough education to communicate well, with a heart for God and the Word, and a God given zeal for evangelism thab someone with a head full of men's ideas and a sheepskin hanging on their wall.

Just my opinion of course.

Thanks
RC
I share that opinion.[:D]



colliefan -> RE: ordination (7/19/2008 2:20:51 PM)

quote:


Now I do not consider all Seminaries are inherently"Bad", just that I had rather work with someone with enough education to communicate well, with a heart for God and the Word, and a God given zeal for evangelism thab someone with a head full of men's ideas and a sheepskin hanging on their wall.


Good point. Do you believe an basic understanding of Greek and Hebrew is needed for ordination?



rcjames -> RE: ordination (7/19/2008 4:46:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan
Good point. Do you believe an basic understanding of Greek and Hebrew is needed for ordination?


I would say no, not for ordination; but it certainly has helped me over the years in my more indepth studies and writings. Though as I said before my studies in Greek and Hebrew were academically based not theologically based (probably all close to the same, but I did it that way for the same reason I dropped standard seminary; men putting their doctrine in the way of academics and/or theology).

Thanks
RC



BibleL7 -> RE: ordination (7/22/2008 2:34:36 AM)

Independant Baptist Churches tend to vary as much as the names of the churches on ordination. Many will require that a person first announce calling, be licensed under a pastor for some time and if the pastor thinks the person is called and able to handle the job then the person may be ordained. Usually not called a pastor or assistant pastor until ordained. Usually called a minister till ordained. Many will have a committee of pastors and ministers test a person and interview before ordination as is suggested in many minister handbooks. I had not known of too many who would ordain so quickly but then I have only dealt with a few in the state of NV. Would also say that the laws concerning licensing and ordination may vary from state to state.



timf -> RE: ordination (7/22/2008 8:15:43 AM)

ordination


What we have today in ordination are various forms of legacy from the Catholic practice of Holy Orders. Essentially these practices have been retained for some of the same reasons they were first introduced.

1. Preventing error. While a noble motive, it is impossible to prevent error. This may be why the Bible never admonishes us to prevent error. We are to correct error and avoid error but the attempt to prevent or control error introduces elements of the flesh that not only quench the work of the Holy Spirit but often institutionalize the error we were trying to avoid.

2. Putting into order. The Bible speaks well of order and poorly of disorder. However, the imposition of controls to achieve order also elevates the flesh. Order should be the effect of hearts turned towards the Lord. The lack of order indicates the need for a change of heart not better rules, controls, mandates, or procedures.

3. Standardization. If priests (or the modern equivalent, pastors) are going to exercise significant organizational power, influence, and authority, you want to have some system to make sure that you don't have a loose cannon running around. Conformity to doctrines, traditions, methods, and brand loyalty are essential to insure organizational continuity.

If you are a new Christian seeking to grow into the image of Christ you usually open the phone book and look under the heading of churches. You then consider selecting a brand that that is geographically convenient, large enough to offer many services, or similar to a familiar brand.

What a new Christian should find is an older wiser Christian walking by the power of the Holy Spirit who is interested in helping him come to know Jesus in a deeper way. Programs, activities, classes, and events may serve some function, but they are a poor substitute for the real relational connections we all need.

Ordination is a tool to insure large systems maintain their traditions. Some of the short comings of this practice are observed as smaller systems try to ape the practices of their larger counterparts. If a young man with a portion of ordinal prerequisites is considered for installation in an organization that is too small to afford the price of a finished component, you have some of the sadness of such systems exposed.

Most Christians are terrified at the prospect of not being protected by their denominational traditions. This "protection" however is not a good substitute for walking in the Holy Spirit and in truth. As evil as the world is and considering the error all around us, it is not our traditions that protect us, but the power of the living God.

If you cannot walk into the world with the confidence of David facing Goliath, the Christian should ask himself if his trust is fully placed in his Lord.



jn1010lf -> RE: ordination (7/22/2008 4:32:26 PM)

Hello macokjc

Let's back up here. God's anointing preceeds any ordination that a group of leaders might think are necessary. I know of a gathering that counts some 700 attender a week. You know how they started? A guy got saved and delivered from drugs. He asked a friend to do a Bible study with him at home. Soon, other friends came and now ---- 700 meet each week.

I've learned that the largest church in Canada is Pastored by a man who has never been to seminary. Not thought of being ordained.

Ordination is mostly a legal thing according to the laws of man. Marriage for example, to be legal according to the state, must be done by a clergy member that has ordination papers.

Now if ordination is done because mature Christians recognize one's anointing, that's fine. But many traditional churches have ordination with no anointing, no power and it's all simply ceremonial stuff that doesn't amount to a hill of beans.



rcjames -> RE: ordination (7/22/2008 5:30:02 PM)

Let's not get too carried away about ordination not being Biblical. When the Church was in its infancy folks had hands laid on them by the more experienced (Elders, Apostles, etc) before being sent out. When they were sent out they carried letters of introduction (Ordination). Even Paul was subject to this as he was broght to Antioc for vetting and laying on of hands.

The recogonition of God's calling on one's life by the Elders (Godly men of experience) is well laid out and is God's plan.

Now does everyone who has an ordination certificate represent God; of course not as anyone can get "Ordained" over the net for a fee.

But "Lone Rangers" were not the norm in the New Testament Church and should not be the norm at the present.

And by the by numbers do not a man of God make; I offer Jim Jones and his following as evidence.

Thanks
RC



armydude -> RE: ordination (7/22/2008 5:33:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

But "Lone Rangers" were not the norm in the New Testament Church and should not be the norm at the present.
That is true, but huge denominations controlling the local church were not the norm then, nor should they be the norm now.

But they are the norm, sadly enough.



rcjames -> RE: ordination (7/22/2008 5:40:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

But "Lone Rangers" were not the norm in the New Testament Church and should not be the norm at the present.
That is true, but huge denominations controlling the local church were not the norm then, nor should they be the norm now.

But they are the norm, sadly enough.


I knew we had been in agreement too much lately[:D]

The New Testament Chruchex were accountable to a great many folks out side of their won congregation (Paul, Timothy, Titus) and including the Council in Jerusalem. It is a system of checks and balances that was set up in Scripture for us to abide by today.

Thanks
RC



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