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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/2/2008 2:25:40 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 739
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From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I don't disagree that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient. However, I don't think that negates the covering of sin in the NT. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing/purity of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:13-14
I think I understand what you are trying to say... there is a war on words, so to say. I'm thinking that possibly you are lookking at "cover" as a form of protection... sheilded... a shelter. Where the biblical connotation of the word "cover" is closer to mask... hide... cover up. It was more of a temporary covering.
The key word in the above verse is "cleanse"... which means to be washed clean, all filth removed.
quote:
The sprinkling of the blood in the OT covered their sins and the sprinkling of the blood in the NT covers our sins. True, it is a how much more cleansing but the OT sacrifice was a picture of what Christ's blood would do for us.
I love you LL... but I need to respectfully disagree, The sprinkling (more over, the pouring out) of blood in the NT cleanses us... washes away our sin.
The word "cover" in this context is to atone... the word atone is in the OT over 100 times, yet it is not mentioned in the NT. The verb atone, means to cover. In the OT our sins were covered, but in the NT our sins are wiped away. That is what the New Covenant is all about.
In our modern language, we say often... "I am covered by the blood of Jesus".... and we are when you think of it as that protestion. But we should really be saying, "I am cleansed by the blood of Jesus."
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/2/2008 4:29:00 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1909
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Thank you, debi. That is helpful. And I am not trying to beat a dead horse here---but I really seek full and complete understanding. So I will ask some more questions and share more thoughts.
So if we think in this way re: covering, wouldn't we also have to reject the idea of being clothed because that too is a superficial covering? Yet we are clothed with Christ. We put on a robe of righteousness. All appear to be a covering, clothing. Not the deep inner cleansing that we know is the reality. Yet the covering and clothing seem to still be pictures of that reality. . . only how much more as Hebrews tells us. Any help here?
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/2/2008 9:07:10 PM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3776
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Wow, pstrdebi. That was great! I think I always understood the robe of righteousness as being Jesus's righteousness, but this explanation is so good. Thank you. :)
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/2/2008 9:33:42 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1909
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Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes, I love this too. But back to my other question---if we can say we are clothed with Christ and know what that means, why can't we say He has covered my sins and know what that means as well? To me it is a contextual thing and the context determines the meaning. . . not the word determining the meaning or the person hearing determining the meaning. Your thoughts?
One of my favorite choruses says, "I am covered over with the robe of righteousness that Jesus gives to me. I am covered over with the precious blood of Jesus and He lives in me. What a joy it is to know my heavenly Father loves me so. He gives to me. . . my Jesus. When He looks at me He sees not what I used to be but He sees Jesus."
I know what Jesus has done for me. I know what these words mean because it is all in the context of Jesus and His actions in and for me. KWIM?
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/3/2008 8:48:59 AM
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kingdust
Posts: 306
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
if we can say we are clothed with Christ and know what that means, why can't we say He has covered my sins and know what that means as well
Because He didn't cover our sins he took them away. I can't explain the deeper theological meaning, but to me there's a differance between my sins being covered and my sins being taken away. If our sins were still here we'd have to offer sacrifices again and again.  
If 'nakedness' is referred to 'sin' only, only then nakedness can be taken away once and for all, leaving behind nothing to cover, no need to cover, no desire to be covered at all, after the switching of the robe.
If that is the case, what was with the rich man in a rich church in Laodicea who was told that he was naked and in need of cover?
quote:
You say, `I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. [18] I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
What about those who would be in bed, naked, and would get caught off guard by a thief?
quote:
REV 16:15 "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
We are to sleep in our cloth, if we don't want to be found naked by a thief?!
If 'covering' only refers to sin taken away once for all, why would we still need cover even in our sleep?
_____________________________
I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/3/2008 12:08:07 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 739
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From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes, I love this too. But back to my other question---if we can say we are clothed with Christ and know what that means, why can't we say He has covered my sins and know what that means as well? To me it is a contextual thing and the context determines the meaning. . . not the word determining the meaning or the person hearing determining the meaning. Your thoughts?
I guess the important thing is this:
God wants us to do everything to excellence, right?
I believe that means in our learning and teaching as well as everything else. If we are teaching what we learn (no matter what level, pastoral or lay-person) we need to be teaching the correct Word.... not what it means to us personally, but what God is truly telling us.
For example, I know what sanctification means... but if I don't explain sanctification fully to a non-believer, they may get the idea that they can get to heaven on their spouse coattails. See what I mean?
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/3/2008 12:13:21 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
If 'covering' only refers to sin taken away once for all, why would we still need cover even in our sleep?
Maybe because one is a metaphore(Rev.) and one is real?
All I know is both Romans and Hebrews says that our sins are taken away or no more, praise God. And I think the word "cover" can mean a few different things, but it can't mean our sins our covered by Jesus because that would contradict the other passages.
_____________________________
Deb
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/3/2008 5:29:06 PM
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sparkleingsnow
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I take the term "covered" to mean the same thing as paid for.
However you want to say it, paid for, covered, taken away, Jesus paid the price for my sin. Thank You, Jesus.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/3/2008 5:56:24 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1909
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quote:
I guess the important thing is this:
God wants us to do everything to excellence, right?
I believe that means in our learning and teaching as well as everything else. If we are teaching what we learn (no matter what level, pastoral or lay-person) we need to be teaching the correct Word.... not what it means to us personally, but what God is truly telling us.
For example, I know what sanctification means... but if I don't explain sanctification fully to a non-believer, they may get the idea that they can get to heaven on their spouse coattails. See what I mean?
I don't disagree with this, debi. But "what God is truly telling us" is the key here. And that is not taught by man. It is Spirit breathed, taught directly by Him and most men (and women) know nothing of this kind of teaching. They rely on the teachings of man. Many of which are helpful. But they can also be a hindrance to the true knowing of Him.
I know that sounds scary to alot of people. I can hear the words 'danger, danger, danger'. And I know many people with what I would call 'wacky' theology. But I truly believe what God says when He says that I don't need a teacher, that He will teach me. That does not mean I'm not open to listening and learning. I certainly am. And I listen to man's teaching. But I believe what He teaches me. And He does not teach error.
So I'm listening. And I'm learning. But I'm taught of Him. Bless ya! I do appreciate you.  LL
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/3/2008 7:06:25 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1793
Joined: 5/23/2006
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quote:
After Adam and Eve's sin, they hid because of their nakedness. (Gen 3:10) God's response to their hiding is this, "And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
Doesn't this appear to be God's associating nakedness with sin? (I am not associating literal nakedness with sin---but the awareness of self as in Adam and Eve's experience appears to be related.)
No, it means to me God is calling them to account for their actions.
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/4/2008 7:21:59 PM
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kingdust
Posts: 306
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
If 'covering' only refers to sin taken away once for all, why would we still need cover even in our sleep?
Maybe because one is a metaphor(Rev.) and one is real?
All I know is both Romans and Hebrews says that our sins are taken away or no more, praise God. And I think the word "cover" can mean a few different things, but it can't mean our sins our covered by Jesus because that would contradict the other passages.
what about the rich person who needed to cover his/her nakedness?
What do you think is the nakedness he/she needed to cover?
To me, no rich person can be naked physically since money can buy all the clothes desired or needed.
So, it has got to be spiritual nakedness, I guess.
If it is a metaphor, then, what is it that the metaphoric idea is pointing to?
What is your 'go figure'?
How can you be sure that your 'go figure' is right enough to take action according to your 'figured-out'?
One way or other, if the naked person doesn't realize that he/she is naked, those who are clothed should help cover the naked, don't you think so?
Can Mr. Webster help you interpret this metaphor correctly like he does with the word definitions in his dictionary?
Can my guess be it?
Are we to listen to what 'I' have to say, since we have ability to think, reason, or believe and mouth to speak, and ears to hear?
_____________________________
I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/5/2008 12:06:56 PM
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kingdust
Posts: 306
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
Can Mr. Webster help you interpret this metaphor correctly like he does with the word definitions in his dictionary?
Can my guess be it?
Who uses Websters to define biblical words? I look up the Hebrew and Greek for a better understanding. I don't get your point at all. Please explain. If you say that Jesus covers our sins you are contradicting what Rom. and Hebrews says, right? There must be more to this "covering" than exaplined. 
Mr. Webster could be English, Hebrew, Greek or any language dictionary if you would understand my figurative speech.
I as an ESL man know too well about understanding the second tongue through word study.
Can't you tell by the way I write English?
If spoken figuratively, whatever spoken seems like a puzzle to a listener, but for the speaker the author, there has got to be a picture in his/her mind in depth or in detail, depending on the nature of the author.
That is, however, a side issue, unless otherwise you see my lack of better words or understanding as kind of nakedness in need of covering.
My main point is what you know about a rich man/woman's nakedness that needs to be covered?
Why would a rich person have something naked and in need of cover?
Don't you know we can cover the unknown by uncovering what we think or believe about the naked rich person?
I am sure somewhere in the midst of our voices is the voice of what the Spirit says for ears to hear?!
_____________________________
I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/5/2008 9:13:16 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
what about the rich person who needed to cover his/her nakedness?
What do you think is the nakedness he/she needed to cover?
To me, no rich person can be naked physically since money can buy all the clothes desired or needed.
So, it has got to be spiritual nakedness, I guess.
Please post the referance for this verse. I looked for it in the thread and didn't see anything on it. Thanks.
King, do you agree or disagree that Jesus took away our sins and not just covered them?
_____________________________
Deb
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/5/2008 9:16:46 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1909
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Stampinlady,
I'm a kingdust impersonator but the reference is Rev 3:18.  LL
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/5/2008 10:15:53 PM
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kingdust
Posts: 306
Joined: 3/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
King, do you agree or disagree that Jesus took away our sins and not just covered them?
I am not sure whether Jesus took away my sin or not, but what I believe is that He paid the penalty for me. If the presence of my sinful nature is the very source of sin, it seems like He didn't take sin out and away from me.
Because of the fact that I still have my sinful nature with me, I desire His covering everyday.
I just don't wish He covers His face when I am being disgraceful at times; I want Him to cover me until I recover my sense back.
If He doesn't, I may feel too ashamed to go near to Him and touch Him.
Back to the rich and naked person, I am not a rich man but I have more than enough clothes to cover me, physically.
If spiritually speaking, I may be rich in self love, self dependency, self confidence, pride, opinion, and more, which cannot cover me any good due to their fig tree nature which cannot withstand the fire of reality, much less the fire of foundry.
In that sense, I think I am rich and naked.
Rich and naked, sounds like the opposite of 'poor in spirit' to me.
What do you think?
PS, I posted the reference at post #83.
_____________________________
I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/6/2008 9:55:58 AM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1523
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
am not sure whether Jesus took away my sin or not, but what I believe is that He paid the penalty for me. If the presence of my sinful nature is the very source of sin, it seems like He didn't take sin out and away from me
But the verses in Rom. and Heb. that I posted say different.
All,
I've never studied about "covering" and tend to be leary about certain teachings because I think we tend to read way too much into what God has said. Now I do believe in God's providence and protection, but a literal "covering" is hard to understand. And I still stick with looking up word in Greek and Hebrew to see what they say because many times when translated into English they loose much of the meaning. Here's an example: I'm in a bible study on Galations and a lady looked up what a Tutor was back in the day and it's far from what we think one is. He was a task master, with whip in hand. BIG differance in our tutors today, huh?
_____________________________
Deb
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/6/2008 10:32:59 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1909
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quote:
I've never studied about "covering" and tend to be leary about certain teachings because I think we tend to read way too much into what God has said. Now I do believe in God's providence and protection, but a literal "covering" is hard to understand. And I still stick with looking up word in Greek and Hebrew to see what they say because many times when translated into English they loose much of the meaning. Here's an example: I'm in a bible study on Galations and a lady looked up what a Tutor was back in the day and it's far from what we think one is. He was a task master, with whip in hand. BIG differance in our tutors today, huh?
Deb,
Being cautious is a good thing. The Bereans were commended for such behavior. I am like you---I don't believe it just because someone says it. So how do we know truth?
You need to know the Truthgiver, Jesus, and be indwelt by the Holy Spirit who is our teacher and guide into truth. And then you need to be in relationship with Him and get to know Him---and as you do and grow in your relationship with Him, your understanding of spiritual things will take root, deepen, and become more clear because you know Him and everything is put into the correct context. (I'm not saying this as if you don't already know this---I'm just speaking to the thought you shared re:teachings.)
It's not about understanding specific verses, thoughts, doctrines, etc. It's about knowing Jesus. That comes from spending time in the word with the Word. It's not about Bible knowledge or doctrine. It's about knowing a person, loving Jesus, and as you know Him, all the little nuances and ways begin to fall into place. Not that we can ever know Him fully. We are finite.
But the other error we need to be cautious about is a rigidity in our learning. If it doesn't fit into the box that we've created (or been taught), we throw it out. Many times the box needs to be thrown out. Jesus spoke to this kind of rigidity and boxmakers all the time. And it is and should be a frightening thing because these people were lost. They knew all the scriptures and followed them. But they were not willing to come to Jesus. John's gospel expounds on this. They wanted to be righteous but they didn't want relationship. And that is where many are today.
So seek Jesus, to know Him, and let the Holy Spirit lead and guide you into truth. Listen to what others say and then take the thoughts back to Him and let Him speak truth to you. He will.
I can tell that is your desire. And He will satisfy your desire. Bless ya, Deb! LL
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/6/2008 12:20:08 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4110
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kingdust
According to the Bible, even God covered the nakedness of Adam and Eve, with the bloody skin of an innocent animal, Please give me a scripture that says the skins were bloody, or that they actually came from a living animal. If you can. (HINT: it never says any of that)
Don't say something is "According to the Bible" if it is NOT according to the Bible.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/7/2008 10:12:14 PM
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kingdust
Posts: 306
Joined: 3/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
I've never studied about "covering" and tend to be leary about certain teachings because I think we tend to read way too much into what God has said. Now I do believe in God's providence and protection, but a literal "covering" is hard to understand. And I still stick with looking up word in Greek and Hebrew to see what they say because many times when translated into English they loose much of the meaning. Here's an example: I'm in a bible study on Galations and a lady looked up what a Tutor was back in the day and it's far from what we think one is. He was a task master, with whip in hand. BIG differance in our tutors today, huh?
Forget about teaching; I am not teaching you something strange but asking for your opinion.
What do you think about a rich but naked person?
If you think you are not the type, tell me why.
_____________________________
I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Love - covering the nakedness of another - 8/7/2008 10:48:18 PM
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kingdust
Posts: 306
Joined: 3/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: kingdust
According to the Bible, even God covered the nakedness of Adam and Eve, with the bloody skin of an innocent animal, Please give me a scripture that says the skins were bloody, or that they actually came from a living animal. If you can. (HINT: it never says any of that)
Don't say something is "According to the Bible" if it is NOT according to the Bible.
Sorry that I added things to the Bible.
I should have said, 'according to my understanding of the Bible'.
By the way, what is your understanding of the cover God provided for the naked Adam and Eve?
I said 'bloody skin', because I thought no skin could be taken off without shedding blood.
I thought I was a lot more realistic than a merchant in Venice who failed to think of blood in taking a pound of flesh off a live person.
I wonder what kind of cover God did provide for Adam and Eve.
_____________________________
I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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