Did Jesus die to make us good? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Did Jesus die to make us good?


Yes
  17% (5)
No
  79% (23)
Not sure
  3% (1)


Total Votes : 29
(last vote on : 8/4/2008 9:51:29 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message

Little_1 -> Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/19/2008 7:28:22 AM)

There's a popular hymn which I'm sure you all know: "There is a green hill far away"

One of the verses in this hymn says:

"He died that we might be forgiven;
He died to make us good
that we might go at last to Heaven
saved by His precious blood."

Do you agree with the bold and underlined part of line 2 (which obviously refers to Jesus)?

Please explain your answer giving Biblical backing where possible.

Appreciated.



mvic -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/19/2008 2:09:00 PM)

I think the second line of the hymn was meant to rhyme with "blood"; which it doesn't.

So I'm not sure whether I agree with the second line or not. We all know why Jesus died. At least I hope we do.



rcjames -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/19/2008 6:14:10 PM)

(Mat 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Thanks
RC



colliefan -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/19/2008 8:21:08 PM)

Luke 18:18 - 19 (NASB) 18A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.



LCannon -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/19/2008 10:12:29 PM)

Mortals can't be good enough themselves, only an external could redeem them.
Galatians 3:10-"For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no man is justified before God by the law('good enough'?) for “He who through faith is righteous shall live”; 12 but the law does not rest on faith, for “He who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree”— 14 that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."



sunshine4God -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/19/2008 10:55:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Luke 18:18 - 19 (NASB) 18A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.


Thats exactly what I was thinking.God did not die to make us good but to let us be forgiven.



Little_1 -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/20/2008 4:52:35 AM)

1 Peter 1:16
"for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

I use the word 'Holy' instead of 'good' if I am singing this hymn.

I used to sing "...... to make us good......" until a minister pointed this line out one day during his sermon.



drmark -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/20/2008 9:20:16 AM)

Just another issue distinguishing Calvinists from Wesleyan-Arminians. Does the Atonement change the nature of sin or the nature of man? I only know what my Bible teaches me. There are literally scores of Scripture verses which command us to be good, righteous, holy, perfect, pure, clean, blameless, etc. YES, Jesus died and rose again to make us good!



hellochurch -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/20/2008 10:00:55 AM)

well,

I was undecided on the poll till I saw the reference on Jesus's answer, 'no one is good but God', and then I could answer.

I was going to say from scripture, Jesus died to make us Holy and 'Perfect', (not in the modern use meaning of the word perfect exactly though) and Jesus use of good meant something diff. I think than the Holy and Perfect found elsewhere in the scripture as instruction for us.
(Of course God is Holy and Perfect, but Jesus was meaning something diff. I think)

These words in text always made me uncomfortable, ie '"be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" because I felt stressed out especially if I had just done something before reading it that wasn't perfect.

"That which fell amoung thorns are they which when they have heard go forth and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection."

(Careful do not allow the spiritual opposition to condemn you with any scripture, or to bother you, scripture is given for our learning growth edification and to cause change, God is always growing us, so to see something in the Word and then measure ourselves and not be there yet is not condemnation, the fact that we see it is good, and then God will show us how to step into it. Why I say this is this is how opposition has worked on me in the past, until I caught on to what was going on and put a stop to that, using other scripture that instructed me to do so.)

So I did a study on the meaning of this kind of 'perfection' and found some good instruction there.

I wll post again a little later on what I found. Very delicious.



Little_1 -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/20/2008 12:22:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

Just another issue distinguishing Calvinists from Wesleyan-Arminians. Does the Atonement change the nature of sin or the nature of man? I only know what my Bible teaches me. There are literally scores of Scripture verses which command us to be good, righteous, holy, perfect, pure, clean, blameless, etc. YES, Jesus died and rose again to make us good!


My dog is good but he is not holy, righteous or pure, etc......

Please provide a Scripture which says Jesus died to make us 'good'.



Little_1 -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/20/2008 12:26:29 PM)

Perfection in the Bible usually refers to Christian maturity and is evident in the Christian's life by the fruits of the Spirit.



Kath -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/20/2008 5:34:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

Just another issue distinguishing Calvinists from Wesleyan-Arminians.


Please do not turn this into another Calvinism thread, we already have one of those. Just stick to the simple question. Thank you.


If you wish to discuss Calvinism/Calvinists, please use the proper thread, linked below.
Calvinism/Arminianism:
Click Here

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crankius -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/20/2008 6:24:04 PM)

I voted no.

I cannot be made good in myself. However, when Christ died on the cross, He bore the wrath of God for my sin, and through His death I gain His righteousness through imputation. I do not become righteous, for only One is righteous, and it is through His righteousness that I am justified before God.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Note the in Him portion of the passage. His righteousness is imputed to me. Romans 4 addresses this as well.

Romans 4:23-25 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.



x_SoliDeoGloria_x -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/20/2008 7:00:00 PM)

I voted yes, for the same reasons that crankius voted no. I guess the disagreement arises from how we define "making us good." I think we would both agree that Romans 4 teaches that righteousness is required for justification, and the way that we achieve this necessary righteousness (in other words, are made good) is that through faith, our sin is credited to Christ and His righteousness is credited to us (imputed goodness).

The same faith that justifies us also sanctfies us, that is, makes us better people, but not good as in the perfect goodness that Jesus was talking about in Luke 18:19 -- No one is good -- except God alone.

Of course, not everyone agrees with this interpretation of justification and sanctification.



crankius -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/20/2008 7:01:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: x_SoliDeoGloria_x

I voted yes, for the same reasons that crankius voted no. I guess the disagreement arises from how we define "making us good." I think we would both agree that Romans 4 teaches that righteousness is required for justification, and the way that we achieve this necessary righteousness (in other words, are made good) is that through faith, our sin is credited to Christ and His righteousness is credited to us (imputed goodness).

The same faith that justifies us also sanctfies us, that is, makes us better people, but not good as in the perfect goodness that Jesus was talking about in Luke 18:19 -- No one is good -- except God alone.

Of course, not everyone agrees with this interpretation of justification and sanctification.


So you should have voted no. [:D]



x_SoliDeoGloria_x -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/20/2008 7:08:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

quote:

ORIGINAL: x_SoliDeoGloria_x

I voted yes, for the same reasons that crankius voted no. I guess the disagreement arises from how we define "making us good." I think we would both agree that Romans 4 teaches that righteousness is required for justification, and the way that we achieve this necessary righteousness (in other words, are made good) is that through faith, our sin is credited to Christ and His righteousness is credited to us (imputed goodness).

The same faith that justifies us also sanctfies us, that is, makes us better people, but not good as in the perfect goodness that Jesus was talking about in Luke 18:19 -- No one is good -- except God alone.

Of course, not everyone agrees with this interpretation of justification and sanctification.


So you should have voted no. [:D]


I guess the key phrase in your answer is "in myself." I agree with you that I cannot be made good in myself, but I can be clothed with Christ's righteousness, which is good enough for me.
[;)]



servantanna -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/20/2008 8:29:04 PM)

I said that Jesus died to make us good, but I almost wish there were another option. I believe Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins, since we deserve death -- He paid the price. However, I think the Resurrection occured to give us the power over sin. He lives to intercede for us in heaven. When we were saved, our life became "hidden" with Christ in God, we were crucified with Him, nevertheless we live, and He is in us, the hope of glory. All of those together mean that with us in Him and He is us, with the Holy Spirit empowering us, as we behold Jesus, we ARE being transformed. The "good" in us is Him, but our "good" brings Him glory -- and nothing "good" would happen at all unless He first died, so that He could live again, if that makes any sense.



pstrdebi -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/20/2008 10:50:19 PM)

I think sometimes we get too bogged down with logistics.

"Jesus died that we might live." Does He want us to live to be bad? Or does He want us to live to be good?

Look at it this way... very simplistic... Jesus died to save us for eternity. In eternity we WILL be good, so... in that, "He died to make us good."
[:D]



SonInMe1 -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/21/2008 12:40:30 AM)

If Jesus sacrifice made us good...why are we trying so hard to BE good? Wouldn't there be an instant undeniable perfection falling from heaven to cover us? Wouldn't we all be perfect and without any flaw if Jesus' accomplishment on the cross was to make us good?

Could that job, if that what it was, be only half way? Since Jesis is God and perfect, His work on the cross MUST be perfect. IF, the accomplishment on the cross was to make us good...

then why are we sanctified?

why do we have to repent?

why do we have to forgive and be forgiven?

What was done on the cross was not to make us good, though certainly that is one effect. It was to introduce us to the One who IS good and the source for all good. If we were perfected by Jesus sacrifice, then we would not need Jesus anymore.

The scriptures about being perfected ( future tence ) and good and obediant are encouragements to do so. They set the standard...a very high one, in fact the highest, the perfection and purity of Christ Jesus.

I don't know about the rest of ya, but I haven't seen too many perfect...or even good...christians out there. If Jesus' job was to create good people, He did a very poor job of it.



URForgiven -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/21/2008 9:39:10 AM)

Jesus did not die to make us good, He died to forgive our sins, once and for all. And then He rose to give us life, His life, eternal life.

In and of ourselves we have no goodness. As Christians, we are indwelt by the One who is good. For us to live is Christ.

Peace



drmark -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/21/2008 11:10:42 AM)

quote:

Please provide a Scripture which says Jesus died to make us 'good'.
quote:

Perfection in the Bible usually refers to Christian maturity and is evident in the Christian's life by the fruits of the Spirit.
Little_1, you just answered your own request - Gal 5:22 (fruit #6)!

quote:

Luke 18:18 - 19 (NASB) 18A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
quote:

I was undecided on the poll till I saw the reference on Jesus's answer, 'no one is good but God', and then I could answer.
The reference is meaningless unless you understand the correct meaning, hellochurch. Jesus is confronting the rich young man for his unusual address of "Good Teacher" by pointing out that if he truly believes Jesus is good, then he must believe Jesus is God! Similarly, if we truly believe God makes us good (as I do) then we must believe it's all because of God's amazing grace and nothing we can do on our own!

quote:

the way that we achieve this necessary righteousness (in other words, are made good) is that through faith, our sin is credited to Christ and His righteousness is credited to us (imputed goodness).
quote:

Of course, not everyone agrees with this interpretation of justification and sanctification.
Actually SDG, crankius is correct. If you only believe in imputed righteousness, then how can you say we are made good? Imputed righteousness merely covers up our sin so God somehow no longer sees it in us. As I stated before, that is changing the nature of sin, not man. I believe in both imputed and imparted righteousness, so that God does indeed make us good when we are sanctified wholly. That is changing the nature of sinful man!



Little_1 -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/21/2008 1:57:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Please provide a Scripture which says Jesus died to make us 'good'.
quote:

Perfection in the Bible usually refers to Christian maturity and is evident in the Christian's life by the fruits of the Spirit.
Little_1, you just answered your own request - Gal 5:22 (fruit #6)!......



I do believe you are correct [;)]



jbow -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/21/2008 5:55:59 PM)

I voted no...

Jesus died not that we might be made good but that we might die with him because we are rotten to the core and cannot be made good, we cannot be made better, much less good... He died that in Him we might die also.

He was raised again that we also might be raised to new life, not our old self but a new creature. To the extent we abide in Him and walk in the Spirit and to that extent only, are we good and that goodness is not of ourselves but of Him in us through our obedience to Him in newness of life.

So no, He did not die to make us good. He died that we might, in Him, die too. Once we are dead we cannot be made good, we are just dead.

Any goodness we have, any righteousness that we are is only by grace, through faith, from Him, of Him, and unto Him.. He is our righteousness. If we walk in the Spirit, if we are led by the Spirit, if we are "born of the Spirit" and we walk in obedience... then we do the works of Christ, as Christ did the works of God, not of Himself but in obedience to the Spirit. Jesus said, "I do nothing of Myself". When we are in the place where we too can say truthfully, 'I do nothing of myself... I only do what I see the Lord doing' then maybe we can be called good but that goodness, or righteousness, is only such if it originates in the Lord and is brought into the external physical world through our bodies by our obedience, in love, to God.

In that sense He has made us good, not by His death but through His resurrection; but still, in us, that is in our flesh, dwell's no good thing.

Good??... We get no credit... it ain't us, it's Him... if we are born again and walk in the Spirit.

(Pstrdebi)....I think sometimes we get too bogged down with logistics.
We do indeed get bogged down down in words and meanings. While such things are important, the truth is what is really important. I was talking to RC earlier today about some things and the conversation turned to sanctification and walking in the Spirit. I have noticed how easily the spirit of the word is changed by the enemy when we fall into sin. When we fall into sin the devil subtlety changes our understanding of the scripture from "walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh" to "don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh and you will walk in the Spirit". The enemy does this by getting us to focus our energy upon sin instead of God, by getting us to fight against sin rather than to submit to God in humility. I, at least, so easily fall into this trap. You'd think i'd see it by now.... DOH!

J



pstrdebi -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/21/2008 6:28:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jbow

(Pstrdebi)....I think sometimes we get too bogged down with logistics.
We do indeed get bogged down down in words and meanings. While such things are important, the truth is what is really important. I was talking to RC earlier today about some things and the conversation turned to sanctification and walking in the Spirit. I have noticed how easily the spirit of the word is changed by the enemy when we fall into sin.


Don't get me wrong... words and meanings are important... I just sometimes come into these forums after seeing so much tragedy, injustice and strife... that I can sometimes have a tiny bit of a cynical attitude. Wrong, yes. I should try to temper my answers a little.

I guess that sometimes it's funny to me that there can be so much ado about the words to a song (no offence Little_1) (which by the way, I somewhat agree with mvic, that the writer was probably trying to make it rhyme.)... Again... it's one of those days where things don't make sense.

quote:


When we fall into sin the devil subtlety changes our understanding of the scripture from "walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh" to "don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh and you will walk in the Spirit". The enemy does this by getting us to focus our energy upon sin instead of God, by getting us to fight against sin rather than to submit to God in humility. I, at least, so easily fall into this trap. You'd think i'd see it by now.... DOH!


This is so true. The enemy is cunning and is trying to take out as many as he can before his time is up.
[8|]
Blessings!



Little_1 -> RE: Did Jesus die to make us good? (7/22/2008 2:25:45 AM)

Thanks to all who posted in response. I both appreciated and enjoyed reading your posts.

I write poetry and on a few occasions, someone has pointed out to me that what I have written is not entirely correct and it is all because I have tried to include a word in the poem to make it rhyme. By doing so and by using just one word, this made the doctrine of the poem incorrect (even if not entirely incorrect as in this case) and therefore possibly (though not intentionally) misleading.

I totally agree with those who have said that the hymn writer was probably trying to make the verse rhyme and what he wrote was not meant in any way to be misleading; however, I also believed it was a very good question to ask to make us think about what we are singing. It was a minister who pointed out the verse in the OP one Sunday during his sermon. Since then, I have been careful to read the words of Hymns and choruses first before singing them (wherever possible) and not to sing anything I don't mean, understand or have doubts about. However, at the same time, I don't think this is something we should get bogged down about - just be aware of.



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