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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/23/2008 7:02:22 PM
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TrustingGod
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Psa 48:9 - 11 (HCSB) 9 God, within Your temple, we contemplate Your faithful love..... this verse does not support Contemplative Prayer. There is a difference between contempating (to view or consider with continued attention : meditate on) on God's faithful love and practicing Contemplative Prayer. There may be different "levels" of contemplative prayer" but the roots are in the 3 monks who are practicing eastern mysticism.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/23/2008 10:20:55 PM
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colliefan
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H1239
áÈÌ÷Çø
bâqar
baw-kar'
A primitive root; properly to plough, or (generally) break forth, that is, (figuratively) to inspect, admire, care for, consider:—(make) inquire (-ry), (make) search, seek out.
Hebrew for meditate
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/23/2008 10:32:03 PM
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colliefan
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H7878
שִׂיחַ
śı̂yach
see'-akh
A primitive root; to ponder, that is, (by implication) converse (with oneself, and hence aloud) or (transitively) utter:—commune, complain, declare, meditate, muse, pray, speak, talk (with).
another Hebrew word
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/23/2008 10:42:32 PM
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colliefan
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Holman Bible Dictionary
MEDITATION The act of calling to mind some supposition, pondering upon it, and correlating it to one’s own life. A wicked individual meditates upon violence (Prov. 24:2). The meditation of a righteous person contemplates God or His great spiritual truths (Pss. 63:6; 77:12; 119:15, 23, 27, 48, 78, 97, 148; 143:5). He hopes to please God by meditation (Ps. 19:14). Thus meditation by God’s people is a reverent act of worship. Through it they commune with God and are thereby renewed spiritually.
Most references to meditation occur in the Old Testament, especially in the Psalms. The Hebrew words for meditation primarily were derived from two separate roots. The first (hagah) literally means “to utter in a low sound.” The word is used to denote the growling of a lion (Isa. 31:4) or the cooing of a dove (Isa. 38:14). Therefore it has been suggested that, in ancient Hebrew meditation, Scripture frequently was recited in a low murmur. The second root word (sia) has the basic meaning of “to be occupied with,” or “concerned about.” Thus meditation is the repetitious going over of a matter in one’s mind because it is the chief concern of life. The constant recollection of God’s past deeds by the hearing of Scripture and repetition of thought produce confidence in God (Pss. 104:34; 119:15, 23, 48, 78, 97, 99, 148; Ps. 63:6-8; 143:5).
Meditation is only mentioned twice in the New Testament. Jesus instructed Christians to meditate beforehand on their attitude toward persecution (Luke 21:14). Paul advised Timothy to meditate on the matters about which Paul had written Him (1 Tim. 4:15). Meditation is an important part of the Christian’s relationship with Christ.
See Prayer.
LeBron Matthews
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/23/2008 10:47:36 PM
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colliefan
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International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Meditation
med-i-tā´shun (הָגוּת, hāghūth, שִׂיחָה, sīḥāh): “Meditation” is the translation of hāghūth, from hāghāh, “to murmur,” “to have a deep tone,” hence, “to meditate” (Ps 49:3); of hāghı̄gh, “sighing,” “moaning” (Ps 5:1; see 5:2); of higgāyōn, “the murmur” or dull sound of the harp, hence, meditation (Ps 19:14, “Let … the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight”); of sı̄aḥ, “speech,” “meditation” (Ps 104:34, “Let my meditation be sweet unto him”); of sı̄ḥāh, a “bowing down,” “musing” (Ps 119:97, 99; 2 Esdras 10:5). “To meditate” is the translation of hāghāh (Josh 1:8; Ps 1:2; 63:6; Isa 33:18 the King James Version); of sūaḥ (Gen 24:63); of sı̄aḥ (Ps 119:15, 23, etc.; 143:5, the King James Version “muse”; 1 Ch 16:9; Ps 105:2 margin). In Apocrypha we have “to meditate” (Ecclesiasticus 14:20, “Blessed is the man that shall mediate in wisdom,” the Revised Version margin “most authorities read come to an end” (teleutḗsei); Ecclesiasticus 39:1, “meditateth in the law of the Most High” (dianoéomai)). The lack of meditation is a great want in our modern religious life. In the New Testament, we have “to meditate” (προμελετάω, promeletáō, “to take care beforehand”), Lk 21:14, and “meditate” (μελετάω, meletáō, “to take care”), 1 Tim 4:15 the King James Version (the Revised Version (British and American) “be diligent”); compare Phil 4:8; Col 3:2.
W. L. Walker
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/23/2008 10:52:07 PM
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colliefan
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The New Ungers Bible Dictionary
Meditation
“A private devotional act, consisting in deliberate reflection upon some spiritual truth or mystery, accompanied by mental prayer and by acts of the affection and of the will, especially formation of resolutions as to future conduct” (Cent. Dict., s.v.). Meditation is a duty that ought to be attended to by all who wish well to their spiritual interests. It should be deliberate, close, and continuous (Psalm 1:2; 119:97). The subjects that ought more especially to engage the Christian mind are: the works of creation (Psalm 19:1-6); the perfections of God (Deuteronomy 32:4); the character, office, and work of Christ (Hebrews 12:2-3); the office and operations of the Holy Spirit (John 15-16); the dispensations of Providence (Psalm 97:1-2); the precepts and promises of God’s words (Psalm 119); the value, powers, and immortality of the soul (Mark 8:36); the depravity of our nature, and the grace of God in our salvation, etc.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/24/2008 12:55:56 AM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please note this cannot be a Catholic thread.
Christians other than Catholics practice contemplative prayer.
There is a difference between meditating on God and emptying ones mind of everything.
Please get to the point of this thread (sans Catholicism) or it will be closed.
Thanks.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/24/2008 12:17:16 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Christians other than Catholics practice contemplative prayer.
There is a difference between meditating on God and emptying ones mind of everything.
Exactly. We are called to fill our minds with the truth of God. We have placed the western mndset of rational mindset upon much of the church. Remember that Judiaism is an eastern religion. By eastern I do not man at all Hinduism or its cousins. Remember that Christianity sprung from its Jewish roots.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 7:53:19 AM
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Dan1138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Psa 48:9 - 11 (HCSB) 9 God, within Your temple, we contemplate Your faithful love. 10 Your name, God, like Your praise, reaches to the ends of the earth; Your right hand is filled with justice. 11 Mount Zion is glad. The towns of Judah rejoice because of Your judgments.£
Good quote, but I don't like the rendering of this translation. I also see that you quote this out of context. Now pay close attention to the physical context of the first line and the spiritual context of the last line. (DEATH)
8As we have heard, so have we seen
In the city of the LORD of hosts, in the city of our God;
God will (N)establish her forever. Selah.
9We have thought on (O)Your lovingkindness, O God,
In the midst of Your temple.
10As is Your (P)name, O God,
So is Your (Q)praise to the ends of the earth;
Your (R)right hand is full of righteousness.
11Let Mount (S)Zion be glad,
Let the (T)daughters of Judah rejoice
Because of Your judgments.
12Walk about Zion and go around her;
Count her (U)towers;
13Consider her (V)ramparts;
Go through her palaces,
That you may (W)tell it to the next generation.
14For such is God,
Our God forever and ever;
He will (X)guide us [a]until death.
I love contemplation of God with my whole mind. I have done this since I was a small child without knowledge. We live in a post-modern day of: Rick Warren, truth is not truth, whatever the meaning of is is, moral relativity. The word contemplate has been redefined by New Age Universalists to mean meditative openess to the spiritual realm. If you contemplate with your whole heart, soul, strength and mind then you do well, as long as you don't think that this gets you closer to God?
< Message edited by Dan1138 -- 7/25/2008 8:44:02 AM >
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 8:26:20 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
CLARIFICATION: Contemplative Prayer is a belief system using mystical practices that quiet or eliminate all thoughts by repeating words phrases or controlled breath. This state is called the silence and is similar to mental states experienced by wiccans and eastern pagans. These words or phrases can be and are often bible quotations. The goal of Contemplative Prayer is pantheism and pan-entheism according to certain "elite" practicioners.
Dan, could you give me the reference to the above definition? I believe there may be a couple (he's an elder, no less!) in our church that is ascribing to this. It doesn't sit well with me and I need to understand why the red flags are popping up all through my mind.
Thank you!
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 8:31:16 AM
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Dan1138
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
Christians other than Catholics practice contemplative prayer.
There is a difference between meditating on God and emptying ones mind of everything.
Exactly. We are called to fill our minds with the truth of God. We have placed the western mndset of rational mindset upon much of the church. Remember that Judiaism is an eastern religion. By eastern I do not man at all Hinduism or its cousins. Remember that Christianity sprung from its Jewish roots.
So did Kabala and legalism and first century Judaisers and Pharisees and Gnostics. You are misleading. Simply because Christianity came out of the Law and Isreal is centered on the World Map, does not mean we should practice mind numbing mysticism! Contemplative Prayer in this post modern age is a practice that empties your mind and fills it with garbage. If you want to be close to God just ask, study scripture and think about scripture. God meets you in your simplicity, in grace.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 8:40:04 AM
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Dan1138
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This will reveal Contemplative prayers true goal. Most Contemplatives don't know this because they don't look.
Reimagining Christianity is a book by Episcopalian Bishop Alan Jones (San Franscisco's Grace Cathedral). In the book, Jones is referring to Contemplative Prayer when he talks about the silence. This is common lingo among elite Contemplatives.
"Loved and in communion with all things, the soul is born in and out of the secret silence of God. This silence at the heart of mysticism is not only the meeting point of the great traditions but also where all hearts might meet."
another excerpt:
"But another ancient strand of Christianity teaches that we are all caught up in the Divine Mystery we call God, that the Spirit is in everyone, and that there are depths of interpretation yet to be plumbed.... At the cathedral we "break the bread" for those who follow the path of the Buddha and walk the way of the Hindus."
Contemplative prayer is mysticism and it leads back to Catholic roots and a One World religion. Maybe not today, but yes maybe today.
_____________________________
My Christian walk is like a car ride. "How long Lord. OK I'll be patient......How long Lord!"
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 9:15:11 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
For anyone who is interested:
...from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
It is true that this heresy started again from the Catholic Church....
Heresy? Since when is meditating on Christs life heresey? Contemplating the mysteries of God is a good thing. Besides, unless God appointed you as His personal Oracle, you are not the judge of what is heresey and what is not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
....Which gets this error from tradition not the bible. I espouse Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone)
A humorous statement, since "Sola Scriptura" is found nowhere in the Bible, and is itself a tradition of men that was begun in the 16th centurty. Besides, we gave you your New Testament. Thanks for reading our book.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
....If you want to quote or promote Catholicism there is a thread for that....
I'm not promoting anything. I am providing another perspective. And I will post my perspective wherever I please.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan1138
If you want to quote Catholic try the mystical monks of the middle ages or Teresa of Avila or Brother Laurence who was known for his fits of insane leaping and lunging around the room when affected by a spirit?
You mean like the Pentacostals do? So what. How do you know how the Holy Spirit can affect different individuals? You are not in a position to judge people you have never met.
And now I will repost my post for anyone who missed it:
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
.
For anyone who is interested:
...from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
III. CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER
2709 What is contemplative prayer? St. Teresa answers: "Contemplative prayer [oracion mental] in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us."6 Contemplative prayer seeks him "whom my soul loves."7 It is Jesus, and in him, the Father. We seek him, because to desire him is always the beginning of love, and we seek him in that pure faith which causes us to be born of him and to live in him. In this inner prayer we can still meditate, but our attention is fixed on the Lord himself.
2710 The choice of the time and duration of the prayer arises from a determined will, revealing the secrets of the heart. One does not undertake contemplative prayer only when one has the time: one makes time for the Lord, with the firm determination not to give up, no matter what trials and dryness one may encounter. One cannot always meditate, but one can always enter into inner prayer, independently of the conditions of health, work, or emotional state. The heart is the place of this quest and encounter, in poverty ant in faith.
2711 Entering into contemplative prayer is like entering into the Eucharistic liturgy: we "gather up:" the heart, recollect our whole being under the prompting of the Holy Spirit, abide in the dwelling place of the Lord which we are, awaken our faith in order to enter into the presence of him who awaits us. We let our masks fall and turn our hearts back to the Lord who loves us, so as to hand ourselves over to him as an offering to be purified and transformed.
2712 Contemplative prayer is the prayer of the child of God, of the forgiven sinner who agrees to welcome the love by which he is loved and who wants to respond to it by loving even more.8 But he knows that the love he is returning is poured out by the Spirit in his heart, for everything is grace from God. Contemplative prayer is the poor and humble surrender to the loving will of the Father in ever deeper union with his beloved Son.
2713 Contemplative prayer is the simplest expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gift, a grace; it can be accepted only in humility and poverty. Contemplative prayer is a covenant relationship established by God within our hearts.9 Contemplative prayer is a communion in which the Holy Trinity conforms man, the image of God, "to his likeness."
2714 Contemplative prayer is also the pre-eminently intense time of prayer. In it the Father strengthens our inner being with power through his Spirit "that Christ may dwell in [our] hearts through faith" and we may be "grounded in love."10
2715 Contemplation is a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus. "I look at him and he looks at me": This is what a certain peasant of Ars in the time of his holy cure' used to say while praying before the tabernacle. This focus on Jesus is a renunciation of self. His gaze purifies our heart; the light of the countenance of Jesus illumines the eyes of our heart and teaches us to see everything in the light of his truth and his compassion for all men. Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ. Thus it learns the "interior knowledge of our Lord," the more to love him and follow him.11
2716 Contemplative prayer is hearing the Word of God. Far from being passive, such attentiveness is the obedience of faith, the unconditional acceptance of a servant, and the loving commitment of a child. It participates in the "Yes" of the Son become servant and the Fiat of God's lowly handmaid.
2717 Contemplative prayer is silence, the "symbol of the world to come"12 or "silent love."13 Words in this kind of prayer are not speeches; they are like kindling that feeds the fire of love. In this silence, unbearable to the "outer" man, the Father speaks to us his incarnate Word, who suffered, died, and rose; in this silence the Spirit of adoption enables us to share in the prayer of Jesus.
2718 Contemplative prayer is a union with the prayer of Christ insofar as it makes us participate in his mystery. The mystery of Christ is celebrated by the Church in the Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit makes it come alive in contemplative prayer so that our charity will manifest it in our acts.
2719 Contemplative prayer is a communion of love bearing Life for the multitude, to the extent that it consents to abide in the night of faith. The Paschal night of the Resurrection passes through the night of the agony and the tomb - the three intense moments of the Hour of Jesus which his Spirit (and not "the flesh [which] is weak") brings to life in prayer. We must be willing to "keep watch with [him] one hour."14
7 Song 1:7; cf. 3:14.
8 Cf. Lk 7:36-50; 19:1-10.
9 Cf. Jer 31:33.
10 Eph 3:16-17.
11 Cf. St. Ignatius of Loyola, Spiritual Exercises, 104.
12 Cf. St. Isaac of Nineveh, Tract. myst. 66.
13 St. John of the Cross, Maxims and Counsels, 53 in The Collected Works of St. John of the Cross, tr. K. Kavanaugh, OCD, and O. Rodriguez, OCD (Washington DC: Institute of Carmelite Studies, 1979), 678.
14 Cf. Mt 26:40.
source link:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p4s1c3a1.htm#III
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 3:05:42 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
"jirations" of Contemplative Prayer Isn't that a bit like actively playing dead? It makes no sense.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 3:14:55 PM
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DaveW
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I find this whole discussion amusing and at the same time disgusting.
IMO, the OP had no clue what contepletive prayer is, and when someone tried to tell him otherwise he negated it. The psalms speak of meditating on God's word. Is that the same thing as hindu or zen meditation? No.
But at the same time, the biblical faith (Judeo-Christian) is not one of western rationalism, which has its roots in Greek paganism. It is more eastern than that. It accepts the supernatural as a normal part of life (which IS mysticism) If you are born again you have had a mystical experience. If you have had victory over sins you have had a mystical experience.
Or perhaps You saved yourself? Set yourself free from sin?
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 3:19:28 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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Hey, that was a pretty good post. Let me toss in that "Contemplative" and "Meditative" prayer are not quite the same.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 8:59:08 PM
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colliefan
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The Puritans could hardly be considered eastern monks. The following are some quotes from them on the practice of meditation.
Continued meditation brings great profit to the soul. Passant and transient thoughts are more pleasant, but not so profitable. Deliberate meditation is of most use because it secures the return of the thoughts.
—Thomas Manton
Meditation will keep your hearts and souls from sinful thoughts. When the vessel is full you can put in no more.... If the heart be full of sinful thoughts, there is no room for holy and heavenly thoughts: if the heart be full of holy and heavenly thoughts by meditation, there is no room for evil and sinful thoughts.
—William Bridge
If I have observed anything by experience, it is this: a man may take the measure of his growth and decay in grace according to his thoughts and meditations upon the person of Christ, and the glory of Christ's Kingdom, and of His love.
—John Owen
What is the reason there is so much preaching and so little practice? For want of meditation.... Constant thoughts are operative, and musing makes the fire burn. Green wood is not kindled by a flash or spark, but by constant blowing.
—Thomas Manton
It is not the bee's touching of the flower that gathers honey, but her abiding for a time upon the fower that draws out the sweet. It is not he that reads most, but he that meditates most, that will prove the choicest, sweetest, wisest and strongest Christian.
—Thomas Brooks
When we find our souls at all declining, it is best to raise them up presently by some awakening meditations, such as of the presence of God, of the strict reckoning we are to make, of the infinite love of God in Christ and the fruits of it, of the excellency of a Christian's calling, of the short and uncertain time of this life, of how little good all those things that steal away our hearts will do us before long, and of how it shall be for ever with us hereafter, as we spend this short time well or ill. The more we make way for such considerations to sink into our hearts, the more we shall rise nearer to that state of soul which we shall enjoy in heaven.
—Richard Sibbes
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 9:12:41 PM
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colliefan
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Meditating on Scripture
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 9:33:06 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Meditating on Scripture
Meditation and Contemplative Prayer are not the same thing.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 9:49:25 PM
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TrustingGod
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I think the problem is defining meditation/contemplative. I'm all for meditating on the Word and on what God has done for me. However, meditation is thinking/dwelling on these things. Digesting them, working them out, applying them, using them in my life.
What I'm opposed to is the concept (which is the origin of Contemplative Prayer) of emptying my mind so I can have some type of "mystical" experience. In my research of Contemplative Prayer, this is the goal of Contemplative Prayer.
We can argue what we believe contemplative prayer is but the problem is when you use the phrase "Contemplative Prayer" you have to keep in mind of what that really means - where it orginates. Mature Christians can understand that mediating on the Word means what it means. However, younger Christians who aren't as familiar with discerning may be led astray by those who wish to draw them into something that will draw them away from God.
It is important for everyone to research what the Word of God says. The Bible contains everything we need to know in regard to our spiritual relationship with God. It is the foundation. Any "revelation" that does not line up with the Bible cannot be trusted.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 9:51:05 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
....It is important for everyone to research what the Word of God says. ....
Thats how we got denominations. Didn't work out too good.
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/25/2008 10:38:47 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Meditating on Scripture
Meditation and Contemplative Prayer are not the same thing.
explain what you believe are the differences
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RE: Contemplative Prayer is it mysticism? - 7/26/2008 10:00:56 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Meditating on Scripture
Meditation and Contemplative Prayer are not the same thing.
explain what you believe are the differences
Meditation is above all a quest. The mind seeks to understand the why and how of the Christian life, in order to adhere and respond to what the Lord is asking. The required attentiveness is difficult to sustain. We are usually helped by books: the Sacred Scriptures, particularly the Gospels, writings of the spiritual fathers, works of spirituality, etc. Meditation is a prayerful quest engaging thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. Its goal is to make our own in faith the subject considered, by confronting it with the reality of our own life
Contemplative prayer is hearing the Word of God. It has meditative elements, but it is also silence and trying to hear the voice od God speaking back to you. Contemplative prayer is a union with the prayer of Christ insofar as it makes us participate in his mystery. Contemplative prayer is the simple expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus, an attentiveness to the Word of God, a silent love. It achieves real union with the prayer of Christ to the extent that it makes us share in his mystery.
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JMHO. 
