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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/1/2008 1:16:39 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
A lack of respect for an outward symbol, like the flag, may actually imply a disrespect for the Constitution - after all, the flag represents America, all of it, including the Constitution.
Yet without reverence for the constitution, all of the liberties (and the sacrifices made to preserve them) symbolized by the flag cease to exist.
Indeed.
Seems like we are entering into a "chicken and egg" argument.
All I have been able to see regarding Obama and the flag appears to be disrespect. I have little knowledge of his respect for the Constitution - and neither do many Americans, considering his short tenure in the Senate. For this reason, my question regarding Obama and his actions regarding the flag are important to me.
Does anyone know if Obama or his campaign have addressed any of these issues? What was his response regarding these, if any?
It seems to me there may, indeed, be a legitamate explanation. So far, I haven't heard any which would satisfy me.
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/1/2008 1:17:18 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
3. Probably the same reason McCain's "Straight Talk" jet doesn't have the flag. LINK to a reliable source, not WorldNutDaily.
Recheck your facts. The flag on McCain's jet is on the fusleage next to the aircraft numbers. It is also on both sides of the jet - not just the side where the cameras do not see.
Go to the Snopes Link and check out the third picture down.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/1/2008 1:21:41 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
3. Probably the same reason McCain's "Straight Talk" jet doesn't have the flag. LINK to a reliable source, not WorldNutDaily.
Recheck your facts. The flag on McCain's jet is on the fusleage next to the aircraft numbers. It is also on both sides of the jet - not just the side where the cameras do not see.
Go to the Snopes Link and check out the third picture down.
As I said, the flag is on the fuselage. The photo in your link has the fuselage obscured by the wing.
The flag is located on the fuselage behind the wing. It is right next to the aircraft numbers. If you find a pic showing the numbers you will see the flag.
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/1/2008 1:28:27 PM
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Dubya
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Here is a link to a pic of McCain's plane with a flag on it: McCain's plane
Third picture down.
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/1/2008 1:43:06 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3973
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
3. Probably the same reason McCain's "Straight Talk" jet doesn't have the flag. LINK to a reliable source, not WorldNutDaily.
Recheck your facts. The flag on McCain's jet is on the fusleage next to the aircraft numbers. It is also on both sides of the jet - not just the side where the cameras do not see.
Go to the Snopes Link and check out the third picture down.
As I said, the flag is on the fuselage. The photo in your link has the fuselage obscured by the wing.
The flag is located on the fuselage behind the wing. It is right next to the aircraft numbers. If you find a pic showing the numbers you will see the flag.
Finally found a pic zoomed in to the BOTTOM REAR of the jet. Why bother? Might just as well tape his label pin to it, LOL. It has "mccain.com" prominently displayed on the tail.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/1/2008 2:56:07 PM
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saved9201
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quote:
I think what got most folks upset was that Obama had a very large flag on the tail of his plane before he had it refurbished. When that vanished, people noticed.
My question is, why does Superman need a plane?
-Julius
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/1/2008 2:57:57 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
quote:
I think what got most folks upset was that Obama had a very large flag on the tail of his plane before he had it refurbished. When that vanished, people noticed.
My question is, why does Superman need a plane?
-Julius
It's not for him.
It's for the press corps.
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/1/2008 3:01:44 PM
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Christ_Logic
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I know that there are some that think Obama would make a better president than McCain.
So, my question is, why would you think this??
_____________________________
2 John 1:2-3
for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever :
Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/1/2008 9:41:17 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1956
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
During his overseas trip last week, I saw several shots of Obama wearing a flag pin - not that doing so is required. Sometimes he wears a pin, sometimes he doesn't. Besides, IMO, treating the US flag as a jingoistic idol is absurd.
Not only is it absurd, it's disrespectful to the ideals which the flag represents, to the servicemen who died protecting it, and to the voters. Patriotism is embodied in our beliefs and our actions, not in our pieces of flair.
I admire someone more if they choose to show respect to the flag by not using it as a cheap marketing ploy.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/1/2008 10:38:18 PM
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saved9201
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya I agree that wrapping oneself in the flag can be very deceiving... but I was never asking Obama to wrap himself in the flag. I was only asking for a reasonable explanation for what I, and many other Americans, may perceive as a slight against the flag. I would like to know why.
Well, ya know, at this point in the campaign, I doubt if you're going to get an acceptable explanation as to why he doesn't do the things you think he should do to be considered patriotic. So I guess you just need to check the block "unpatriotic" next to his name and move on to the next category. Same thing goes for those who think he's a Muslim. If you think he's a Muslim, then he's a Muslim. Check that block and move on. I know, I know...you KNOW McCain, but you don't KNOW Obama so you've gotta ask questions of Obama that you wouldn't ask of McCain. Like McCain's Christianity is never questioned even though he said he wasn't born again and never saw a need to be baptized. His patriotism is never challenged even though he signed a statement while confined in Vietnam confessing to war crimes. He told Sean Hannity that he "really didn't love America until I was deprived of her company" (link). But that's okay because you KNOW McCain, you don't KNOW Obama. Chances are, by now, you never will KNOW Obama. Probably never really wanted to KNOW him. And even if you did, I doubt you'd like him anyway. So vote for the dude you know.
- Julius
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 3:20:12 PM
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blue1914
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
I know he's for gay "marraige."
I'm curious to know how you "know" this given that he has publically stated the opposite. Civil unions and rights to gay couples, you've got a point, but gay "marriage", he's opposed publically.
http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Barack_Obama.htm
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
I know he's for unlimited abortion zero through nine months and beyond.
Again curious about how you know this since again, he's publically stated the opposite.
http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Barack_Obama.htm
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
I know he'd like to raise the inheritance tax, so I'll be able to leave less to my children.
You may have a point on this one based upon his public vote, but the last one was in 2005 and I'll bet his policy has changed a bit since then:
http://www.usavoter.com/obama_stance.html
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
I know he's for every bat-brained piece of social engineering the Dems can come up.
On this one, I wonder if you could be a little more specific in your definition of "bat brained" as Mr. Obama has on more than one occasion opposed his party's official stance on an issue.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
And since the above goes against what I as a blood-bought, Bible-believing Christian man acknowledge, that's all I need to know. And all of Obama's slick rhetoric and fawning media and throngs of shrieking, weeping women doesn't change that.
But thanks for asking.
That's quite a mouthful, but I'd avoid the throngs of shrieking, weeping women too! 
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 3:29:24 PM
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blue1914
Posts: 407
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
Okay, when will NObama's new technology be available?
Maybe right after Mr. Bush, our current sitting Commander in Chief makes good on his purported support for hydrogen fuel cell cars which he proudly touted in his state of the Union address in January of 2003 (actually an attempt to distract public opinion from his woefully inadequate policies).
It's been the 5 years that we were told would be necessary to make this type of alternative fuel viable on a limited scale in America. Do we have progress toward viable infrastructure to support this alternative fuel-hmm-NO-but we do have viable vehicles available by manufacturers outside of the US, just no domestic manufacturers and no infrastructure to support it. Alternative technology-I guess we are all lucky that this is an original idea by Mr. Obama.
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 4:05:47 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
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quote:
It's been the 5 years that we were told would be necessary to make this type of alternative fuel viable on a limited scale in America. Do we have progress toward viable infrastructure to support this alternative fuel-hmm-NO-but we do have viable vehicles available by manufacturers outside of the US, just no domestic manufacturers and no infrastructure to support it. Alternative technology-I guess we are all lucky that this is an original idea by Mr. Obama.
Then why aren't the countries who have developed this technology, such as Germany or Japan, currently using them. They are paying higher gas prices we are ($8 and up) and yet they continue to use the same type of gas powered vehicles we use.
Oh, I suppose Big Bad Bush won't let them either.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 4:18:53 PM
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blue1914
Posts: 407
Joined: 6/21/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
quote:
It's been the 5 years that we were told would be necessary to make this type of alternative fuel viable on a limited scale in America. Do we have progress toward viable infrastructure to support this alternative fuel-hmm-NO-but we do have viable vehicles available by manufacturers outside of the US, just no domestic manufacturers and no infrastructure to support it. Alternative technology-I guess we are all lucky that this is an original idea by Mr. Obama.
Then why aren't the countries who have developed this technology, such as Germany or Japan, currently using them. They are paying higher gas prices we are ($8 and up) and yet they continue to use the same type of gas powered vehicles we use.
Oh, I suppose Big Bad Bush won't let them either.
I would assume that if what you claim is correct (I really don't have any supporting info for or against to make any claims), it would probably be for the same reason there is no adoption in the U.S.-no viable infrastructure to support it. NOW, what is the difference-which European or Japanese heads of state made a commitment to develop the technology or the infrastructure?
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 4:36:58 PM
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blue1914
Posts: 407
Joined: 6/21/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
All I have been able to see regarding Obama and the flag appears to be disrespect.
Actually, if Mr. McCain has indeed painted his plane with a copy of the U.S. flag, it would be he who is disrespecting the flag.
Unfortunately in America we are so ignorant of proper flag etiquette that we often applaud it's use as a cavalier decoration. According to accepted flag etiquette and practice, this is a high level of desecration (cavalier display) to the symbol.
Here's a little info on flag etiquette-if Mr. Obama did indeed alter his tail decoration, perhaps it's because someone within his campaign realized the potential perception of disrespect the original decoration may have shown.
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm (Check out 8 d and i)
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 6:10:43 PM
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saved9201
Posts: 712
Joined: 4/15/2005
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Whats funny is, some of the same people who complain that they don't "know" enough about Obama, also claim they're tired of hearing about him.
-Julius
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 6:55:12 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
All I have been able to see regarding Obama and the flag appears to be disrespect.
Actually, if Mr. McCain has indeed painted his plane with a copy of the U.S. flag, it would be he who is disrespecting the flag.
Unfortunately in America we are so ignorant of proper flag etiquette that we often applaud it's use as a cavalier decoration. According to accepted flag etiquette and practice, this is a high level of desecration (cavalier display) to the symbol.
Here's a little info on flag etiquette-if Mr. Obama did indeed alter his tail decoration, perhaps it's because someone within his campaign realized the potential perception of disrespect the original decoration may have shown.
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm (Check out 8 d and i)
Nice try!
Re; 8d: A lapel pin is NOT "wearing apparel". "wearing apparel" is clothing. The regulation most specifically refers to shirts, pants, underwear, bikinis, etc.
Re: 8i: A flag on an aircraft is customary - especially when representing a country. It is not advertising!
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 10:11:48 PM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 476
Joined: 4/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
Whats funny is, some of the same people who complain that they don't "know" enough about Obama, also claim they're tired of hearing about him.
-Julius
I am one of those who feels I do not know enough about Obama, and I am tired of hearing "about" him.
I am tired of hearing all about "hope", and "change" without any specfics or any real evidence of either one.
I am tired of hearing "bring our soldiers from Iraq" so he could send them to Pakistan for a massive man hunt for someone who has outlived his significance (if he is even still alive).
Did we conduct a massive manhunt for Hitler near the end of WWII?
Did anyone seriously call for one?
We did not because we knew he was no longer a threat, but his ideas and vision of a master race was. Bin Laden is not a threat. His network, his soldiers, his ideals, and his vision is. That is what we and the world needs to focus on.
Sorry for the rant.
At one point Obama seemed promising to me. I thought he was going to be like JFK and challenge Americans and bring real change and hope. Unfortuneately,I have come to he conclusion that he is a one issue canidate. As soon as most of troops are out of Iraq, he will be nothing but an arrogant puppet of the radical left wing of the Democratic Party. He lacks experience in dealing with fellow lawmakers, especially those across the aisle from his political philosophy. He lacks the asspciation, inspiration and connections with people who really wish to bring about real meaningful change and hope to this country, as we continue to move into a future that promises to be every bit as challenging as our past, if not more so.
< Message edited by Leon_Figg3 -- 8/6/2008 10:33:24 PM >
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 10:13:28 PM
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blue1914
Posts: 407
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
All I have been able to see regarding Obama and the flag appears to be disrespect.
Actually, if Mr. McCain has indeed painted his plane with a copy of the U.S. flag, it would be he who is disrespecting the flag.
Unfortunately in America we are so ignorant of proper flag etiquette that we often applaud it's use as a cavalier decoration. According to accepted flag etiquette and practice, this is a high level of desecration (cavalier display) to the symbol.
Here's a little info on flag etiquette-if Mr. Obama did indeed alter his tail decoration, perhaps it's because someone within his campaign realized the potential perception of disrespect the original decoration may have shown.
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm (Check out 8 d and i)
Nice try!
Re; 8d: A lapel pin is NOT "wearing apparel". "wearing apparel" is clothing. The regulation most specifically refers to shirts, pants, underwear, bikinis, etc.
Re: 8i: A flag on an aircraft is customary - especially when representing a country. It is not advertising!
I don't know that you have refuted anything I've said (or that you have shown my intepretation of the flag code to be incorrect) but I'll try again:
8d. - the encouraged use of the flag does not refer to the representation used but to the occasion for it's use. In the flag code, it's recommended use as a decoration for clothing is restricted to offical capacities only-military, law enforcement, etc. etc. Unless your contention is that all elected officials are considered within this class (in which case you must take a census of all members of all branches of government to determine one's disposition toward wearing a lapel pen), a flag lapel pin is a resonably cavalier display. The commonality of something does NOT make it proper or correct, which leads to:
8i. - two wrongs don't make a right. That really was my original contention-our ignorance of the flag code has led us to accept many frivolous displays of the flag as acceptable-that does not make it so.
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 10:35:39 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
I'm curious to know how you "know" this given that he has publically stated the opposite. Civil unions and rights to gay couples, you've got a point, but gay "marriage", he's opposed publically.
Whatever anyone wishes to call it Obama is for the ungodly homosexual agenda...
quote:
Again curious about how you know this since again, he's publically stated the opposite.
The man supports the murder of unborn children...
John
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 10:36:26 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
All I have been able to see regarding Obama and the flag appears to be disrespect.
Actually, if Mr. McCain has indeed painted his plane with a copy of the U.S. flag, it would be he who is disrespecting the flag.
Unfortunately in America we are so ignorant of proper flag etiquette that we often applaud it's use as a cavalier decoration. According to accepted flag etiquette and practice, this is a high level of desecration (cavalier display) to the symbol.
Here's a little info on flag etiquette-if Mr. Obama did indeed alter his tail decoration, perhaps it's because someone within his campaign realized the potential perception of disrespect the original decoration may have shown.
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm (Check out 8 d and i)
Nice try!
Re; 8d: A lapel pin is NOT "wearing apparel". "wearing apparel" is clothing. The regulation most specifically refers to shirts, pants, underwear, bikinis, etc.
Re: 8i: A flag on an aircraft is customary - especially when representing a country. It is not advertising!
I don't know that you have refuted anything I've said (or that you have shown my intepretation of the flag code to be incorrect) but I'll try again:
8d. - the encouraged use of the flag does not refer to the representation used but to the occasion for it's use. In the flag code, it's recommended use as a decoration for clothing is restricted to offical capacities only-military, law enforcement, etc. etc. Unless your contention is that all elected officials are considered within this class (in which case you must take a census of all members of all branches of government to determine one's disposition toward wearing a lapel pen), a flag lapel pin is a resonably cavalier display. The commonality of something does NOT make it proper or correct, which leads to:
Elected officials represent the country. It is right and appropriate for elected officials to wear the flag lapel pin as a matter of choice. There is nothing inappropriate about this in the flag code.
See 8j from your link: "Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."
quote:
8i. - two wrongs don't make a right. That really was my original contention-our ignorance of the flag code has led us to accept many frivolous displays of the flag as acceptable-that does not make it so.
You missed my point. The use of the word "customary" cannot be construed to mean "frivilous".
Section 8i refers to advertising. The use of the flag on an official aircraft of a nation is seen all over the world. It is like a flag on a ship at sea. The difference is that on an airplane it must be painted on (for obvious reasons). If you take a look at international commercial aircraft you will always se a flag displayed. Usually on the tail or on the fuselage next to the aircraft numbers.
Again, from another page of the link you posted: "Why is the flag sometimes backwards on the side of airplanes, buses, and other vehicles? The flag decals show the union (the blue area) on the side closer to the front of the plane. On the plane's left, the decal shows the flag with the union at the left, as usual. On the plane's right side, is a "right flag" or "reversed field flag" or "reverse flag," with the union on the right. This is done so that the flag looks as if it is blowing in the wind created by the forward movement. You can see this on cars and trucks as well."
Here is the link: Why is the flag sometimes backwards on the side of airplanes, buses, and other vehicles? This is about 3/4 of the way down the page.
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 10:53:10 PM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 476
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline
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What is the big fuss about Obama's wearing of a US flag lapel pin, or the display of the US flag on the transportation he uses?
Has anyone really listened to his beliefs what the flag symbolizes/ stands for to some people in America, or what he believes it represents to many people overseas? That is what we should be concerned about.
If he is elected president, he is going to be in the company of the American flag for the duration of his time in office, whether he likes it or not.
If he is elected, he is going to take an oath of office which stipulates that his main responsibility is the protection of the US Constitution, and all that goes with it, no matter how he beliefs/ views/ or understands it, whether he like it or not.
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/6/2008 11:06:00 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3
What is the big fuss about Obama's wearing of a US flag lapel pin, or the display of the US flag on the transportation he uses?
Has anyone really listened to his beliefs what the flag symbolizes/ stands for to some people in America, or what he believes it represents to many people overseas? That is what we should be concerned about.
Leon_Figg3,
This is what I have been asking. All I know is that I have been very uneasy about Obama's apparent disrespect of the flag. I have not heard his beliefs. If you have a link with some quotes, I would certainly appreciate it.
Every politician - Liberal as well as Conservative - have always taken great pains to show their patriotism. All I hear from the Obama people is, "How dare you question his patriotism"... I think if there are answers they should be heard and exposed rather than the pointless bantering back and forth about "flag etiquette". I apologize for my part in that bantering, if that offended you... but what was being said by others was inaccurate... as shown by the very link he posted.
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RE: What I Wish I Knew About Obama - 8/7/2008 2:34:55 AM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3
What is the big fuss about Obama's wearing of a US flag lapel pin, or the display of the US flag on the transportation he uses?
Has anyone really listened to his beliefs what the flag symbolizes/ stands for to some people in America, or what he believes it represents to many people overseas? That is what we should be concerned about.
Leon_Figg3,
This is what I have been asking. All I know is that I have been very uneasy about Obama's apparent disrespect of the flag. I have not heard his beliefs. If you have a link with some quotes, I would certainly appreciate it.
Every politician - Liberal as well as Conservative - have always taken great pains to show their patriotism. All I hear from the Obama people is, "How dare you question his patriotism"... I think if there are answers they should be heard and exposed rather than the pointless bantering back and forth about "flag etiquette". I apologize for my part in that bantering, if that offended you... but what was being said by others was inaccurate... as shown by the very link he posted.
Last fall Obama stopped wearing an American flag lapel pin. His campaign issued a statement that read in part, "We all revere the flag, but Senator Obama believes that being a patriot is about more than a symbol." But the symbol came in handy when people learned his mentor hated America.
At his first speech attempting to distance himself from the anti-American Rev. Wrong, Obama had eight American flags standing behind him.
I love the flag when it serves me.
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