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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 3:38:31 PM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
Joined: 3/23/2007
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quote:
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"Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Please read your own scriptural quote. While arguing that man cannot shepard a church you are quoting Paul saying they in fact can but were made such by the Holy Spirit.
What I said was that there is no NT basis for A man being the "head pastor" of a local church. Paul was talking to elderS (plural) who AS PART OF A LOCAL BODY were entrusted with the responsibility to OVERSEE and SHEPHERD the church, and even then only AFTER they had proven themselves over time. Paul didn't appoint or recognize elders in Ephesus when he planted the church, it was only after a considerable period of time had passed, with the church operating WITHOUT A PASTOR and WITHOUT any "official" elders. Even after Paul recognized elders in Ephesus there is never any mention of a "pastor" being appointed as the head of that church.
Bottom line, when you investigate the meanings of the words Paul used, it's not about exercising authority over a local church, it's about the body FEEDING and WATCHING OUT FOR ONE ANOTHER. It's not about elevating certain people to a "higher level" of holiness or whatever. The goal is that EVERYONE reaches spiritual maturity TOGETHER.
The problem with us humans is that we have this need to exert control over others, so everything we touch has to become a rigid institution. We've taken an experience that Jesus intended to be all about relationship--with Him and with one another--and we've totally corrupted it to revolve around rules and regulations and rigid structure.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 3:38:51 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
How much have you spent on engineering cost for this school idea of yours?
Have you been able to do everything required to meet the health codes for a "school" with your budget?
How much extra land must you have for parking for this building and the number of people it is going to hold?
I have sought the input of some nonprofit groups that work to promote alternative building technologies regarding foundations, footings and the roof, but until I have some guarantee that I will have access to land and labor I haven’t wanted to waste anybody’s time with hypothetical engineering studies. And you should note that most alternative technologies lend themselves to simple designs that do not need much in the way of engineering work.
BTW: What school health codes are you talking about? As long as no food is prepared onsite the most I would have to worry about under the standard building code for the southeast U.S. is bathrooms and water fountains. The codes would not be all that hard to meet in new construction. And I cannot deal with localized codes until I have a church that is interested. There is no point in investigating codes specific to a place that ends up being unavailable.
The school’s initial enrollment will be limited to either Kindergarteners or 7th graders. Either way I wouldn’t have more than 4-8 teachers so parking would not be an issue for at least several years after the school is open.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 3:57:25 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
To the first part they are correct. They are tax exempt organizations and must abide by the IRS guidelines.
Nonprofit private colleges are also tax exempt, but this doesn’t prevent them from accepting donations from people that want the money used for specific purposes.
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To the second part they are correct as well. You don't have enough money. To build two bathrooms in a church one year ago according to govermental standards cost one church here $60K. That was for only two restrooms. (no frills but they meet all the health codes for a public building)
I take it that you are located someplace where labor unions run rampant
(not the case in the South) and no volunteer labor was used and you built bathrooms for hundreds or thousands of people in a location that has absurd permitting fees due to environmental regulations that likely don't make any sense for the real world. I seriously doubt that bathrooms for 100 students would cost more than a few thousand dollars in my region of the country if volunteer labor is available.
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Asking for the donation anyway? Well didn't YOU approach them first wanting them to donate something?
Donating only for a specific purpose- I haven’t done anything out of the norm for donors of large amounts of money.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 4:02:02 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I know what denomination Jimbo is and it would be up to the entire congregation. He has one vote. He simply stated he would be opposed to it. If the majority voted in favor his vote would not matter to the outcome.
The attitude that he presented to me suggests that he wouldn’t be adverse to finding ways to obstruct the majority when it made a decision that he was personally opposed to. His mind would already have been made up before he had an opportunity to fully consider the details of the offer and pray about it.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 4:17:32 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I know what denomination Jimbo is and it would be up to the entire congregation. He has one vote. He simply stated he would be opposed to it. If the majority voted in favor his vote would not matter to the outcome.
The attitude that he presented to me suggests that he wouldn’t be adverse to finding ways to obstruct the majority when it made a decision that he was personally opposed to. His mind would already have been made up before he had an opportunity to fully consider the details of the offer and pray about it.
You sure read a lot into my statements that weren't intended.
I was just letting you know how Baptists think about gifts to the church from non-members with any strings attached.
No need to assign the messenger to the looney bin or the Archie Bunker fan club.
I have one vote and the right to voice my concerns in my church. So does every other member. After the vote is taken, it is my responsibility to support the majority vote.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 4:32:31 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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The only thing is, there's no Biblical support for the idea of "pastors" getting paid to be "professional ministers." The concept is totally foreign to the New Testament.
Isn't Paul in the New Testament?
1 Corinthians 9:3-14
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? 6 Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? 7 Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock? 8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. 11 If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ. 13 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? 14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.
1 Timothy 5:17-18
17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."
("Double honor" means "double fee". It is the honorarium or speaking fee we pay to speakers at conventions.)
But this is getting off topic. 
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 5:09:04 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jayvance
The only thing is, there's no Biblical support for the idea of "pastors" getting paid to be "professional ministers." The concept is totally foreign to the New Testament.
How so? Does the NT ever expressly say that pastors should not be paid? If not what is wrong with them being paid?
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As far as not being able to be an effective shepherd of a congregation if you have to worry about making a living, let's think about that for a moment. Number one, do you think the average joe on the street feels the average professional pastor can truly relate to what it's like in the "real world?" The net result of a professional clergy is to isolate them from the common man, which is totally the opposite of what the NT church practiced.
I think this would depend on each individual situation. Some, if not most, pastors live like kings and couldn’t care less about the well-being of their congregation, but just because this may be the norm it doesn’t mean that it is right and it doesn’t mean that all pastors do not care about their congregation. If a pastor is willing to devote his life to serving a congregation, then why shouldn’t he be compensated by the congregation?
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Paul clearly instructs these elders NOT to TAKE from the flock but rather to work with their own hands so that they would have the wherewithal to GIVE to the flock.
What happens if the elders get so busy working for their own upkeep that they neglect to look after their flock the way Paul told them to?
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Paul himself, an apostle no less, somehow managed to work for a living while still spreading the Gospel across the nations.
If Paul spent 3 years ceaselessly warning the Ephesians night and day, how did he have time to work for a living?
And how do you explain that when Jesus sent out His Apostles on missionary trips He told them to not take any money because the people the Apostles were going to minister to were expected to look after the Apostles’ basic needs?
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Fourth, the reason we think a pastor needs a full-time patoral salary is because the body isn't ministering to one another the way Jesus intended.
True, but I don’t think eliminating pastoral pay will raise any congregation’s volunteerism. The truth is that all congregations of every denomination and without denomination are so far removed from what God wanted that they should all be scrapped.
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There are no professional "ministers" to be found in the NT. Rather, those who are gifted as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are supposed to "equip...the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. (Eph. 4:12-16, NKJV)
But Paul was something of a professional since he had studied Judaism under Gemaliel. He didn’t have to rely solely on inspiration when he taught because he had his education to draw on.
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But none of those realities argues for a professional clergy.
Why not? If a Bible teacher is going to use something about Greek or Hebrew to explain the Bible to people that don’t know Greek or Hebrew, shouldn’t that Bible teacher have some training in Greek and Hebrew? And if someone is going to look after a church’s business affairs, shouldn’t he have some training in bookkeeping or business administration?
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It's interesting to read Acts 15 to see how this whole episode actually played out. What happened was that the Gentile believers in Antioch NEVER DID practice circumcision. It was only because "certain men from Judea" came down to Antioch and tried to IMPOSE circumcision on the Gentile Christians WITHOUT THE BACKING OF THE APOSTLES that this issue even came up in the first place. The apostles and elders in Jerusalem never tried to exercise authority over the Gentile Christians in Antioch.
They did too.
Acts 15:25-32 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to
send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
There would have been no point in holding the Jerusalem conference if Paul, the Apostles and the Elders there did not intend to exercise authority over the Jews of Antioch (that is the people most likely to be preaching circumcision to the Gentiles). I don’t think the issue was an attempt to launch a full scale heresy so much as it was just an honest dispute over a doctrinal issue that Paul and the Apostles had yet to address.
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Yes, the Antioch church did send Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem to discuss the issue with the leaders there, but still there's no formal hierarchy of authority in view. Even the letter the Jerusalem leaders sent back to Antioch was very low-key; there was no heavy-handedness evident in that letter at all.
If there were no church buildings to seize or pastoral pay to withhold, the Jerusalem council had no real power to use against the would-be heretics that were preaching circumcision. But my point is that when a dispute over doctrine arose the congregation in Antioch was not willing to settle the matter themselves; they submitted to Paul, the Apostles and the elders.
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The reason Paul was qualified to provide leadership to the Ephesian church was because he planted it in the first place. So I don't see that as a basis for bringing in PERMANENT outside leadership. Certainly there will always be a role for itinerant ministers who go from city to city to build up the body of Christ in some particular area of ministry, but that's not the same as bringing in someone to be a paid pastor.
How can an outside planter be OK if outside leadership is not? If everything is supposed to be localized, why didn’t God raise up a church planter from within Ephesus?
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The purpose of leadership in the church is as stated above in Ephesians 4. They were to serve as examples to the body and provide leadership in their particular areas of giftings. But "binding authority" in a local church is vested in the ENTIRE body, not in one person or even a handful of people. A good example of this is when Paul wrote to the Corinthian church about the incest that was taking place in their midst. He didn't instruct the pastor or the elders to disfellowship that person, he put that responsibility on the entire body. Again, our view of church structure has been so skewed by manmade traditions that it's hard to step back and recognize that many of the assumptions we've made about Biblical authority don't really have any Scriptural basis.
But what happens if the entire body of a congregation refuses to act? The founding pastor of one of the largest churches where I live spent decades molesting the children in his church while the leaders of the church covered up for him. He died a few years ago after the victims came forward and he had been indicted, but before he could go to trial.
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The apostles shared the heart of God with the body, but you just don't find NT examples of apostles (or local elders) actually ENFORCING their will on other believers.
Again, there would have been little that they could have done to impose their will on wayward congregations in the 1st century, but they still exercised the authority to settle doctrinal disputes.
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The reason for that is because Jesus did not ever intend to set up that kind of top-down hierarchy.
Then what is Jesus the top of? And why did He say that He would build His church on Peter and what did He mean when told the Apostles that they had the power to bind and loose on earth? (BTW: I am not a Catholic in any form whatsoever).
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"We, however, will not boast beyond measure, but within the limits of the sphere which God appointed us—a sphere which especially includes you.
So Paul did claim that he had God’s authority to supervise certain congregations; he was part of a hierarchy.
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As far as dealing with heresy within the local congregation, if every member is walking in the Spirit as Christ intended, heresy would have much less opportunity to take root.
You are assuming too much. It would the height of folly to think that there are congregations anywhere on earth that Satan has not tried to infiltrate.
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As far as abusive pastors, if we held to a Scriptural model of church life there would BE no abusive pastors.
But not every pastor and congregation holds to the Scriptural model so the issue of how to deal with abusive pastors remains.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 5:14:00 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Not at all. The local church prayerfully decides how it will use its resources. Someone that can't be bothered with committing to membership has no right to dictate use of gifts.
You don’t know anything about my situation other than what I have relayed here. So what qualifies you to comment on my commitment to membership? I choose to not associate with the fools and hypocrites that abound in the churches where I live, and I have every right to determine how my money is to be used.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 5:16:02 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Pastors are also charged to protect their flock. I believe that is what these pastors are doing. Protecting their flock. 
Protecting their flock from what? You don't know me from Adam, so what gives you the right to judge me as something that churches should avoid?
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 5:20:38 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
You don’t know anything about my situation other than what I have relayed here. So what qualifies you to comment on my commitment to membership? I choose to not associate with the fools and hypocrites that abound in the churches where I live, and I have every right to determine how my money is to be used.
I don't care what your circumstance is or if you are the greatest saint to ever walk the earth since the Apostle Paul, if you aren't a member of a Baptist church, don't bother offering a gift with strings attached, they are unlikely to accept it.
By the way, IF it is a gift, you no longer have the right to determine how it's used. Otherwise, it isn't a gift - at best you'd be using the church to accomplish something you couldn't do on your own.
How would YOU react if I said I'd give you $60K but you'd have to build onto your house and allow me to use it for my own purpose. I'd be surprised if you'd go along. Perhaps, I'm wrong.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 5:22:43 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Even if a non-member offered to give my church $3 million, I'd not be in favor of accepting it if the donor wanted to dictate how the money would be spent unless to put it in an existing project without further strings attached.
Why? Do you doubt someone’s salvation or sincerity just because they don’t belong to your church?
Not at all. The local church prayerfully decides how it will use its resources. Someone that can't be bothered with committing to membership has no right to dictate use of gifts.
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ORIGINAL: jeafl
Well let me tell you, the Baptists that I am related to or have known by reputation have all been liars, deadbeats, drunks, womanizers or child molesters, but I am not willing to condemn someone because they go to a church that has such Baptists as members and I am entitled to the courtesy of not being condemned because I don’t go to a particular church.
Again, it has nothing to do with condemning someone for being unusually holy or not a Baptist, but because of the Baptist polity where the membership decides how money is used.
They don’t want to be held accountable for what they do, but they are not opposed to grabbing whatever money they can get.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 5:24:45 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9947
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
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ORIGINAL: jeafl
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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Even if a non-member offered to give my church $3 million, I'd not be in favor of accepting it if the donor wanted to dictate how the money would be spent unless to put it in an existing project without further strings attached.
Why? Do you doubt someone’s salvation or sincerity just because they don’t belong to your church?
Not at all. The local church prayerfully decides how it will use its resources. Someone that can't be bothered with committing to membership has no right to dictate use of gifts.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
Well let me tell you, the Baptists that I am related to or have known by reputation have all been liars, deadbeats, drunks, womanizers or child molesters, but I am not willing to condemn someone because they go to a church that has such Baptists as members and I am entitled to the courtesy of not being condemned because I don’t go to a particular church.
Again, it has nothing to do with condemning someone for being unusually holy or not a Baptist, but because of the Baptist polity where the membership decides how money is used.
They don’t want to be held accountable for what they do, but they are not opposed to grabbing whatever money they can get.
Chief you have defeated your own argument here. They wouldn't take your money would they?
_____________________________
A friend gave me a report with Stats showing that 4,153,237 people got married last year. Now I don't want to start any trouble but I can't help but wonder. Shouldn't that be an even number?
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 5:25:59 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
Protecting their flock from what? You don't know me from Adam, so what gives you the right to judge me as something that churches should avoid?
I count no less that ten (10) times that JESUS said to BEWARE - mostly to beware of men who come in that might deceive or cause harm.
He even warned in Matthew 10:16, "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 5:54:29 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5687
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
They don’t want to be held accountable for what they do, but they are not opposed to grabbing whatever money they can get.
No sir, it is about folks that give "Gifts" with strings attatches. That type of gift is all about control and power, and even though I am not Baptist; do not bring us one of these type gifts either.
Folks that give those types of gifts usually want their name on a plaque attatched to whatever the monies paid for; gag me with a spoon.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 6:11:38 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
No sir, it is about folks that give "Gifts" with strings attatches. That type of gift is all about control and power, and even though I am not Baptist; do not bring us one of these type gifts either.
Folks that give those types of gifts usually want their name on a plaque attatched to whatever the monies paid for; gag me with a spoon.
Thanks
RC
Exactly. Our own church had a similar situation with the school it had been running for years. When the proposal came for it to be incorporated with the new Christian school, people objected because over a decade ago they had given gifts.
Because they spoke up publicly in a general meeting, they were embarrassed when it had to be explained in public that the amount they had contributed was a small amount compared to the annual budget, and it had been spent long ago. It would have been better if they had released their perceived ownership of the funds.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 6:20:43 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
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ORIGINAL: jeafl
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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
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ORIGINAL: jeafl
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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Even if a non-member offered to give my church $3 million, I'd not be in favor of accepting it if the donor wanted to dictate how the money would be spent unless to put it in an existing project without further strings attached.
Why? Do you doubt someone’s salvation or sincerity just because they don’t belong to your church?
Not at all. The local church prayerfully decides how it will use its resources. Someone that can't be bothered with committing to membership has no right to dictate use of gifts.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
Well let me tell you, the Baptists that I am related to or have known by reputation have all been liars, deadbeats, drunks, womanizers or child molesters, but I am not willing to condemn someone because they go to a church that has such Baptists as members and I am entitled to the courtesy of not being condemned because I don’t go to a particular church.
Again, it has nothing to do with condemning someone for being unusually holy or not a Baptist, but because of the Baptist polity where the membership decides how money is used.
They don’t want to be held accountable for what they do, but they are not opposed to grabbing whatever money they can get.
Chief you have defeated your own argument here. They wouldn't take your money would they?
You are not paying attention. Several pastors admitted that they would take my money as long as I gave up all say in how it is used.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 6:26:18 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
Protecting their flock from what? You don't know me from Adam, so what gives you the right to judge me as something that churches should avoid?
I count no less that ten (10) times that JESUS said to BEWARE - mostly to beware of men who come in that might deceive or cause harm.
He even warned in Matthew 10:16, "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."
The last time I checked you were not Jesus. He is entitled to judge my intentions, not you. No pastor has a right to judge me sight unseen. No pastor has a right to say no to my offer without first consulting their congregation.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 6:28:28 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
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ORIGINAL: jeafl
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ORIGINAL: P31W
Pastors are also charged to protect their flock. I believe that is what these pastors are doing. Protecting their flock.
Protecting their flock from what? You don't know me from Adam, so what gives you the right to judge me as something that churches should avoid?
Nobody is pointing an accusation at you. I drive defensively, not because you might be on the road, but because it is dangerous. Pastors are to protect their flocks, not because of you but because there is danger.
In other words you have made assumptions about me without even knowing me. You don’t realize how offensive your defensive driving is to somebody that means you no harm.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 6:33:15 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
They don’t want to be held accountable for what they do, but they are not opposed to grabbing whatever money they can get.
No sir, it is about folks that give "Gifts" with strings attatches. That type of gift is all about control and power,
Ho so? You don't know the details of what has transpired between me and the churches that I have contacted, so how do you know whether or not I am seeking power?
I could just as easily say that the pastors that are not interested in working with me are seeking to keep as much power unto themselves as they can. They don’t want to cooperate with anyone because they don’t want to give up their power.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 6:42:10 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
No sir, it is about folks that give "Gifts" with strings attatches. That type of gift is all about control and power, and even though I am not Baptist; do not bring us one of these type gifts either.
Folks that give those types of gifts usually want their name on a plaque attatched to whatever the monies paid for; gag me with a spoon.
Thanks
RC
Exactly. Our own church had a similar situation with the school it had been running for years. When the proposal came for it to be incorporated with the new Christian school, people objected because over a decade ago they had given gifts.
Because they spoke up publicly in a general meeting, they were embarrassed when it had to be explained in public that the amount they had contributed was a small amount compared to the annual budget, and it had been spent long ago. It would have been better if they had released their perceived ownership of the funds.
I don’t want my name attached to anything. And once I have some idea that the school will do what I want it to do, i.e., graduate students that have the equivalent of 2 years of college behind them when they leave high school, I don’t even want to run the school. In time I may not even want to be a full-time teacher since I have other interests outside of the classroom.
It is utterly amazing how some of you judge people that you don’t even know. You automatically assume the worst in others in a knee-jerk fashion because you are so wrapped up in doing your own thing and going your own way that you don’t realize that your thing and way may not be God’s.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 6:49:14 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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It is utterly amazing how some of you judge people that you don’t even know. You automatically assume the worst in others in a knee-jerk fashion because you are so wrapped up in doing your own thing and going your own way that you don’t realize that your thing and way may not be God’s.
Excuse me, but would you kindly point to anything I said that judged you?
Where are my automatic assumptions?
Where was my knee-jerk reaction?
Exactly what is it that I am so wrapped up in?
What is my "own thing"?
Which way am I going?
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 8:09:25 PM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
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The only thing is, there's no Biblical support for the idea of "pastors" getting paid to be "professional ministers." The concept is totally foreign to the New Testament.
Isn't Paul in the New Testament?
1 Corinthians 9:3-14
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? 6 Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? 7 Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock? 8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. 11 If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ. 13 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? 14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.
1 Timothy 5:17-18
17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."
("Double honor" means "double fee". It is the honorarium or speaking fee we pay to speakers at conventions.)
But this is getting off topic.
Doug, my statement was that there is no NT basis for the concept of a paid pastor as we understand that office today. Neither of the passages you quote speak to that issue. I Cor. 9 is Paul's defense of his apostolic credentials. He refers only to himself and Barnabas in regards to being able to "live off the flock," so to speak. Paul and Barnabas were itinerant church planters, not permanently based "pastors" (of which there were none in the NT anyway.) We can't stretch the passage to say something it doesn't say in order to read back into the text our modern-day interpretations. Likewise, I Tim. 5 does not speak to the issue of a senior pastor as we understand the office. Furthermore, the example you give of a "double fee," as in an honorarium, doesn't speak to a regular salary, in any case. It also does not infer that this would be the elders' only source of income.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 8:28:43 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
It is utterly amazing how some of you judge people that you don’t even know. You automatically assume the worst in others in a knee-jerk fashion because you are so wrapped up in doing your own thing and going your own way that you don’t realize that your thing and way may not be God’s.
Excuse me, but would you kindly point to anything I said that judged you?
Where are my automatic assumptions?
Where was my knee-jerk reaction?
Exactly what is it that I am so wrapped up in?
What is my "own thing"?
Which way am I going?
When you said that you drive defensively you made the assiumption that you needed to drive defensively. You made this assumption without knowing anything about me or my situation. You automatically assumed that I am out to harm some church.
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