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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 8:37:08 PM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
Joined: 3/23/2007
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quote:
Does the NT ever expressly say that pastors should not be paid? If not what is wrong with them being paid?
There are many things the Scriptures don't expressly forbid which in actual practice are detrimental to the life of the church. In my opinion, a paid clergy class has had a devastating effect on the overall health and maturity of the body, mainly because it allows believers to abdicate their responsibility for ministry to paid surrogates.
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If a pastor is willing to devote his life to serving a congregation, then why shouldn’t he be compensated by the congregation?
Mainly because there is no NT basis for the office of "pastor" as we understand the term. The concept of one man being the "head" of a local assembly is absolutely foreign to the Scriptures.
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What happens if the elders get so busy working for their own upkeep that they neglect to look after their flock the way Paul told them to?
That would be a problem for the elders alright, but it certainly wouldn't justify paying them a full-time salary.
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If Paul spent 3 years ceaselessly warning the Ephesians night and day, how did he have time to work for a living?
Paul's word to the elders at Ephesus: "Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me. I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" (Acts 20:34,35 NKJV). He managed somehow, evidently.
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And how do you explain that when Jesus sent out His Apostles on missionary trips He told them to not take any money because the people the Apostles were going to minister to were expected to look after the Apostles’ basic needs?
Again, this doesn't speak to a permanent pastoral office with a full-time salary.
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But Paul was something of a professional since he had studied Judaism under Gemaliel. He didn’t have to rely solely on inspiration when he taught because he had his education to draw on....If a Bible teacher is going to use something about Greek or Hebrew to explain the Bible to people that don’t know Greek or Hebrew, shouldn’t that Bible teacher have some training in Greek and Hebrew? And if someone is going to look after a church’s business affairs, shouldn’t he have some training in bookkeeping or business administration?
I understand that the idea of a trained professional being willing to offer his or her services to the church for nothing goes against the grain of our ecclesiastical traditions, but that's how they did it in the NT church.
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There would have been no point in holding the Jerusalem conference if Paul, the Apostles and the Elders there did not intend to exercise authority over the Jews of Antioch (that is the people most likely to be preaching circumcision to the Gentiles). I don’t think the issue was an attempt to launch a full scale heresy so much as it was just an honest dispute over a doctrinal issue that Paul and the Apostles had yet to address....If there were no church buildings to seize or pastoral pay to withhold, the Jerusalem council had no real power to use against the would-be heretics that were preaching circumcision. But my point is that when a dispute over doctrine arose the congregation in Antioch was not willing to settle the matter themselves; they submitted to Paul, the Apostles and the elders.
Again, we may simply have to disagree on the meaning of authority in this context. I do not see this incident as an example of top-down hierarchy and control, but rather of mutual submission and consensus building.
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How can an outside planter be OK if outside leadership is not? If everything is supposed to be localized, why didn’t God raise up a church planter from within Ephesus?
Not sure I understand the question. A church planter by definition is someone who plants a church where there is none. When Paul planted churches, he became responsible to oversee their welfare. Peter was not responsible to oversee Paul's church plants, or vice versa. Paul himself made that very clear in II Cor. 10.
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But what happens if the entire body of a congregation refuses to act? The founding pastor of one of the largest churches where I live spent decades molesting the children in his church while the leaders of the church covered up for him. He died a few years ago after the victims came forward and he had been indicted, but before he could go to trial.
This question is moot in the context of our discussion because the whole point is that the institutional church structure as we practice it is unbiblical to begin with. Even so, if a local church body refuses to act, there's not much any outsider can do in any case.
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Then what is Jesus the top of? And why did He say that He would build His church on Peter and what did He mean when told the Apostles that they had the power to bind and loose on earth? (BTW: I am not a Catholic in any form whatsoever).
Jesus isn't "at the top of" anything. He's the HEAD of the church, and every believer is under His authority. Jesus didn't say He would build His church on Peter, He said He would build His church on the Peter's REVELATION of who Jesus was, i.e., the Christ. Incidentally, I think it's very significant that Jesus said HE would build His church--another area where we humans have tried to usurp His authority. As to the power given to the apostles to bind and loose on earth, I can't give you a definitive answer, but that wouldn't speak to our discussion of leadership in the local church in any case.
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You are assuming too much. It would the height of folly to think that there are congregations anywhere on earth that Satan has not tried to infiltrate.
Which kind of church do you think would be most susceptible to heresy--a church where EVERYONE was spiritually mature and shared the responsibility for applying Biblical principles to church life, or a church which had to rely on the interpretations of one person?
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But not every pastor and congregation holds to the Scriptural model so the issue of how to deal with abusive pastors remains.
Dealing with abusive pastors is well beyond the scope of this thread, I think. But the way to deal with abusive pastors is to go back to the NT model of not having pastors as we understand that term.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 8:52:30 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10640
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
#1. Jesus actually commands us to be wary because we live in a dangerous world - a world that is against us. We simply cannot just take someone's word that they are a good person with good intent. If you ever find a church that won't ask you difficult questions and will just take your word for who you are, you should run away fast. That's a church that isn't protecting it's flock. I am a church bookkeeper. I know what it is to live under scrutiny - and I relish it. I have nothing to hide, so I have no fear of scrutiny and the scrutiny is simply another way to prove my integrity. Churches and people are swindled every single day by people who appear to be innocent sheep. That's why Jesus commands us to be wary. That doesn't mean we think everyone who comes is a bad person - it means we don't automatically believe everything any stranger tells us.
#2. Our church is approached on a daily basis by people within and from outside the church who want us to join them in this and join them in that. We cannot do everything everyone wants to do - no matter how great the idea. In addition, you simple cannot expect that just because you have money, that requires everyone else to bow down to your idea and do what you say. Not only is that un-Biblical, it is wrong. God does not need you to bribe or shame anyone into doing His will. God doesn't do it and believers shouldn't do it.
#3. You seem to take great offense at people not automatically trusting you with everything. This will be extremely problematic with your goal to start a school. No one will want to put their kid in a school with staff and leaders who are not transparent, who don't submit to being "checked out" (background checks), and who think everyone is out to get them if they don't do what they say. If you want to start this school, I would recommend that you learn to deal with these issues first. Otherwise, your school will be a magnate for child predators and others who are looking for people who don't have their guard up for wolves in sheeps clothing.
#4. 100K is simply not as much as you think it is. The cost of construction isn't in materials. It's in meeting all the building codes and such and schools have extremely rigid requirements for their facilities. You should have seen how many tens of thousands of dollars my church had to spend just to meet those codes and we already had a building, the materials and the structure. If you want someone to invest what you want them to invest, you need to have all that worked out and not expect to do the research after you get someone to come along board. That is simply foolish and that is precisely why you will never get anyone to buy into your plan.
Plus, even after you get the facility, you will have to pay for curriculum, materials, supplies, administrative costs, teacher salaries, startup costs, inspections by state agencies, etc. I'm sorry, but you simply have no idea how expensive this will be. That's ok! We all have to start somewhere. However, if you want others to do your bidding and help you out, you need to know these things.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 8:58:36 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5687
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
Ho so? You don't know the details of what has transpired between me and the churches that I have contacted, so how do you know whether or not I am seeking power?
45 years of being in the ministry gives one a solid outlook on who is giving to be giving and who is giving with an agenda (usually self) in mind.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 9:03:51 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9947
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
Ho so? You don't know the details of what has transpired between me and the churches that I have contacted, so how do you know whether or not I am seeking power?
45 years of being in the ministry gives one a solid outlook on who is giving to be giving and who is giving with an agenda (usually self) in mind.
Thanks
RC
By your own words. You said When you determine the school is established and doing what YOU want it to. You may not even want to continue to be a teacher. You don't want to run the school but your words say different. And you want all this for a mere $100,000. Sound like a deal for someone but I am not sure it is for the church.
_____________________________
A friend gave me a report with Stats showing that 4,153,237 people got married last year. Now I don't want to start any trouble but I can't help but wonder. Shouldn't that be an even number?
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 9:30:29 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
No sir, it is about folks that give "Gifts" with strings attatches. That type of gift is all about control and power, and even though I am not Baptist; do not bring us one of these type gifts either.
Folks that give those types of gifts usually want their name on a plaque attatched to whatever the monies paid for; gag me with a spoon.
Thanks
RC
Exactly. Our own church had a similar situation with the school it had been running for years. When the proposal came for it to be incorporated with the new Christian school, people objected because over a decade ago they had given gifts.
Because they spoke up publicly in a general meeting, they were embarrassed when it had to be explained in public that the amount they had contributed was a small amount compared to the annual budget, and it had been spent long ago. It would have been better if they had released their perceived ownership of the funds.
Your church sounds like a prime reason why no one should be expected to give large sums of money to a church without having some say in how it is used. It sounds like your church’s bookkeeping is so lax that your congregation, as a whole, doesn’t know where the church’s money is going. If you cannot keep track of small amounts of money, why should a donor expect you to be able to keep track of large amounts of money? If a donor has to give up all say in how his money is used, what guarantee should a church be obligated to give that the donor’s money isn’t wasted or stolen?
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 10:18:50 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jayvance
There are many things the Scriptures don't expressly forbid which in actual practice are detrimental to the life of the church. In my opinion, a paid clergy class has had a devastating effect on the overall health and maturity of the body, mainly because it allows believers to abdicate their responsibility for ministry to paid surrogates.
But, as I’ve already said, a church without paid staff does not guarantee that volunteerism on the part of the congregation will go up. Not paying the clergy a salary will not make the rest of the congregation more willing to do the clergy’s work.
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Mainly because there is no NT basis for the office of "pastor" as we understand the term. The concept of one man being the "head" of a local assembly is absolutely foreign to the Scriptures.
Well then call the pastor an elder and put as many of them as you want in a congregation. The issue of salaries does not go away.
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That would be a problem for the elders alright, but it certainly wouldn't justify paying them a full-time salary.
The problem is not with salaries, but rather the people we have overseeing our churches. Paid or not, most pastors/elders are not worthy of their position.
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Paul's word to the elders at Ephesus: "Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me.
So Paul was giving his helpers a salary for helping him. If Paul had to work for a living on top of doing his church work, why didn’t everybody else? And if Paul’s helpers were not working for their own sustenance, what were they doing- working for the church fulltime?
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I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak.
Your pastors/elders are weak? In what way?
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Again, this doesn't speak to a permanent pastoral office with a full-time salary.
I don’t care about permanent pastoral office at the moment. That is not the issue. Whether or not the people that work on God’s behalf should be paid for that work is the issue at hand.
And note that if someone like Peter had to work for a living on top of doing his work as an Apostle, then he would have had a very limited work area since, as a fisherman, he could never get too far from his boats and a body of water. He wasn’t like the tent-maker Paul who could find work no matter where he happened to be.
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I understand that the idea of a trained professional being willing to offer his or her services to the church for nothing goes against the grain of our ecclesiastical traditions, but that's how they did it in the NT church.
I am not at all convinced, by what you have presented as evidence, that this was actually true.
BTW: If a church isn’t supposed to have a paid staff and is supposed to meet in private houses rather than church buildings (another NT convention according to some), then why should a church ever need to take up a collection (what was the money that Judas carried around with him used for if not to pay the Apostles for their work)? When Jesus saw the widow throw her mite into the collection box that supported the Jewish priesthood, He did not object to the Jews having a paid priesthood. In fact, under Mosaic Law, everyone was obligated to pay 10% of whatever they grew or earned to pay the Levitical priests for their services because the priests worked for God full time. Why should Christian church leaders be any different?
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Again, we may simply have to disagree on the meaning of authority in this context. I do not see this incident as an example of top-down hierarchy and control, but rather of mutual submission and consensus building.{/quote]
Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem submitted to the local congregations as the local congregations submitted to them? Where does the Bible say this?
But if there is not supposed to be any kind of inter-congregation hierarchy, how are doctrinal disputes supposed to be settled, and how is bad behavior supposed to be prevented? A congregation can easily develop a mutual admiration and cover-up society between the laity and clergy. Some authority from outside the congregation is needed.
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Not sure I understand the question.
The question is plain.
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Peter was not responsible to oversee Paul's church plants, or vice versa. Paul himself made that very clear in II Cor. 10.
That’s not the issue. If a church can be planted from someone who is not a local resident, but who becomes a local resident during the church’s formative years, why can a church not be supervised by pastors/elders that are not local residents until they assume responsibility for the church once the church is established?
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This question is moot in the context of our discussion because the whole point is that the institutional church structure as we practice it is unbiblical to begin with.
This depends on what you take as being unbiblical. I believe that a congregational polity is unbiblical and also dangerous because it can lead to corrupt congregations and abusive clergy. I don’t necessarily believe that an episcopalian polity is unbiblical and this option des give some safeguards against heresy and clergy abuse.
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Even so, if a local church body refuses to act, there's not much any outsider can do in any case.
If the outsider is an organization that owns an errant congregation’s building or pays an errant pastor’s salary, then there is a lot that the outsider can do to prevent heresy and clergy abuse.
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Jesus isn't "at the top of" anything. He's the HEAD of the church,
What’s the difference?
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Jesus didn't say He would build His church on Peter, He said He would build His church on the Peter's REVELATION of who Jesus was, i.e., the Christ.
Matthew 16:17-19 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Where is the word revelation in this passage?
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As to the power given to the apostles to bind and loose on earth, I can't give you a definitive answer, but that wouldn't speak to our discussion of leadership in the local church in any case.
What else could it mean to bind and loose something if not to exercise authority of some sort over what is bound and loosened? Could it be that you don’t recognize this delegation of authority to Peter because you don’t want to submit to that delegated authority?
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Which kind of church do you think would be most susceptible to heresy--a church where EVERYONE was spiritually mature and shared the responsibility for applying Biblical principles to church life, or a church which had to rely on the interpretations of one person?
Whichever church Satan decides to attack.
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Dealing with abusive pastors is well beyond the scope of this thread, I think.
How so? How a congregation is equipped to deal with abusive pastors depends on what kind of polity it has and how it vests authority and these are things that are part and parcel of this thread.
But the way to deal with abusive pastors is to go back to the NT model of not having pastors as we understand that term.
Then substitute the word elder for pastor and the issue remains. How are we to deal with and alder that teaches heresy? How are we to deal with an elder that absconds with the church’s bank account? How are we to deal with an elder that molests children?
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 10:23:53 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
#1. Jesus actually commands us to be wary because we live in a dangerous world - a world that is against us. We simply cannot just take someone's word that they are a good person with good intent.
Neither can a potential donor take some preacher’s word that the donated money won’t be wasted or stolen. A donor has as much right to verify that the church is doing God’s work as the church does to verify that the donor is doing God’s work.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 10:26:05 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
Ho so? You don't know the details of what has transpired between me and the churches that I have contacted, so how do you know whether or not I am seeking power?
45 years of being in the ministry gives one a solid outlook on who is giving to be giving and who is giving with an agenda (usually self) in mind.
Thanks
RC
This is assuming that you are a godly man after your 45 years in the ministry. Just because you can verify a donor’s intention does not mean that the donor can verify yours.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 10:28:30 PM
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jeafl
Posts: 59
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
Ho so? You don't know the details of what has transpired between me and the churches that I have contacted, so how do you know whether or not I am seeking power?
45 years of being in the ministry gives one a solid outlook on who is giving to be giving and who is giving with an agenda (usually self) in mind.
Thanks
RC
By your own words. You said When you determine the school is established and doing what YOU want it to. You may not even want to continue to be a teacher. You don't want to run the school but your words say different. And you want all this for a mere $100,000. Sound like a deal for someone but I am not sure it is for the church.
I’ve seen too many Christian schools that are just babysitting services and diploma mills for me to risk giving a church the opportunity to waste the money that I have by setting up a babysitting service or diploma mill.
BTW: Make up your mind. You say that my $100,000 could be a deal for someone when before most of you were saying that $100,000 isn’t enough to do anything with.
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 11:33:52 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10640
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jeafl
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
#1. Jesus actually commands us to be wary because we live in a dangerous world - a world that is against us. We simply cannot just take someone's word that they are a good person with good intent.
Neither can a potential donor take some preacher’s word that the donated money won’t be wasted or stolen. A donor has as much right to verify that the church is doing God’s work as the church does to verify that the donor is doing God’s work.
Then why are you so offended that churches aren't jumping on board just because you have money?
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Are independent churches Biblical? - 8/6/2008 11:34:22 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11697
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
I am closing this thread temporarily, to give the OP a chance to cool off.
We'll open again tomorrow.
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