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Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 8:35:29 AM
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cih92
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Evolutionists claim that chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry and the evidence that they use is the fact that humans and chimps are 98% genetically identical. How would you respond to this argument?
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 8:59:45 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cih92
Evolutionists claim that chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry and the evidence that they use is the fact that humans and chimps are 98% genetically identical. How would you respond to this argument?
I would add that it is not simply a matter of quantitative likeness, but also of homology. Furthermore there is the fusion of two chromosomes in the human genome and the pattern of shared pseudogenes (GLO gene) and ERVs. All of this makes sense from the perspective of common ancestry and nothing else accounts for these features.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 10:44:11 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
Evolutionists claim that chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry and the evidence that they use is the fact that humans and chimps are 98% genetically identical. How would you respond to this argument?
Yes, absolutely. They were both created by God.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 3:37:12 PM
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Consecrated2God
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I believe many animals share many identical traits as each other and as humans because we were all created to live in the same world.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 6:01:41 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I believe many animals share many identical traits as each other and as humans because we were all created to live in the same world.
That doesn't account for things that would probably not be part of the original creation, like the same disfunctional gene disabled in the same way, nor for shared ERVs.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 6:07:36 PM
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Consecrated2God
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That's Greek to me, glaudys. You'll have to explain that in non-scientific terms if you want me to understand it. <smile>
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 6:24:05 PM
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mvic
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If man has evolved from the chimpanzee - how come there is still the chimpanzee?
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 7:08:56 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
That's Greek to me, glaudys. You'll have to explain that in non-scientific terms if you want me to understand it. <smile>
Ok.
Let's start with the pseudogene. Do you ever wonder why your dog or cat does not need to drink orange juice? Like most mammals, they have a gene which directs the formation of a protein whose function is to manufacture Vitamin C. They do not need an external source of Vitamin C because it is produced by their own bodies.
As you know, this is not true of us. Nor is it true of chimpanzees and other hominids. All of us need to eat fruit and vegetables which provide Vitamin C for us.
Is it because we don't have the gene? No, we have the gene. But it doesn't work. A mutation in the gene led to a corruption of its ability to produce the necessary protein. Furthermore, exactly the same mutation is found in other hominids.
Now a lot of things can make a gene non-functional. In fact there is another mammal which does not produce its own Vitamin C either. And for the same reason. The gene is damaged. But, it is damaged in a different way than in hominids. IOW there is more than one way to make a gene stop working.
So we have a situation in which not just our species, but all the other species in the hominid family, not only have a defective Vitamin C producing gene, but all show the same defect.
Now what can we say from a creationist perspective?
Was it God's intention from the beginning that we not produce our own Vitamin C like other mammals? If so, why is the gene there at all? Wouldn't it make more sense to just leave it out than to put it in and then disable it? Would God intentionally create us with a broken gene?
And why disable, in the very same way, the same gene in other hominids, but differently in a non-hominid mammal? And why only in this small group of mammals?
From an evolutionary perspective, the solution is simple. The whole mammalian kind started out with a functioning gene. As mammals diversified into different lineages, the gene experienced a disabling mutation twice: once in the hominid family and once in a different lineage. But while both led to non-production of Vitamin C, they did so in different ways.
Within the hominid family, it was a common ancestor which experienced the mutation. The species survived because its life-style gave it access to lots of fruit, so losing the ability to produce its own Vitamin C was not a problem. So the disabled gene was passed to all its descendants as they diversified into different species, and we are one of those species.
Like to do ERVs next? They are a bit more complicated, but raise some of the same questions.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 7:11:49 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
If man has evolved from the chimpanzee - how come there is still the chimpanzee?
Is that a serious question?
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 7:37:54 PM
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Consecrated2God
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Thanks for the explanation. That was a lot more interesting and understandable to read.
Here is a little story that may help explain my views on questions like that.
Years ago, when I was pregnant with my firstborn, my husband did a roofing job for some friends of ours. As I had no other kidlets to take care besides the ones I was busy growing, I went to the job site with him every day and helped him out. The lady of the house, a lovely German Baptist woman, invited us to stay with supper each day we were there, which was about a week. She served a different meal each time we were there, but my husband and I both noticed that everything she made tasted the same! We still to this day puzzle over how she could make such a variety of dishes and yet everything had the same distinctive flavor. Maybe she certain spices she used over and over, or the same kinds of ingredients, or maybe it was just the way she stirred the dish, I don't know.
I've noticed that about other people as they create things, whether it be food, novels, music, art, etc. People tend to do things the same way a lot, even as they create different things. I've read enough Francine Rivers books that I've noticed which words she uses more than other authors. She loves to use the word "sardonic" in her books.
We are made in the image of God Himself--the original Creator. Why wouldn't He also use a similar pattern to make His creation? There is such beautiful diversity within creation, and yet we see so many similar things from one to the other. He's an orderly God--why shouldn't a lot of His creation have similar attributes?
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 10:12:36 PM
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cih92
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
If man has evolved from the chimpanzee - how come there is still the chimpanzee?
I'm not an evolutionist, but an evolutionist would respond by saying that not all chimpanzees evolved into man.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 10:13:54 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Thanks for the explanation. That was a lot more interesting and understandable to read.
Here is a little story that may help explain my views on questions like that.
Years ago, when I was pregnant with my firstborn, my husband did a roofing job for some friends of ours. As I had no other kidlets to take care besides the ones I was busy growing, I went to the job site with him every day and helped him out. The lady of the house, a lovely German Baptist woman, invited us to stay with supper each day we were there, which was about a week. She served a different meal each time we were there, but my husband and I both noticed that everything she made tasted the same! We still to this day puzzle over how she could make such a variety of dishes and yet everything had the same distinctive flavor. Maybe she certain spices she used over and over, or the same kinds of ingredients, or maybe it was just the way she stirred the dish, I don't know.
I've noticed that about other people as they create things, whether it be food, novels, music, art, etc. People tend to do things the same way a lot, even as they create different things. I've read enough Francine Rivers books that I've noticed which words she uses more than other authors. She loves to use the word "sardonic" in her books.
We are made in the image of God Himself--the original Creator. Why wouldn't He also use a similar pattern to make His creation? There is such beautiful diversity within creation, and yet we see so many similar things from one to the other. He's an orderly God--why shouldn't a lot of His creation have similar attributes?
But for this to be a valid analogy, one would also have to suppose that your hostess deliberately made the same error in her recipes, and Francine Rivers deliberately misspelled "sardonic" in a small group of her novels which also happened to feature some of the same characters.
The similarity I am pointing to here is not a similarity of order. Order would be all the hominids following the same pattern as the other mammals and having a working gene so that our bodies produced the Vitamin C we need. The question the disfunctional gene poses is why do we have this disorder--this exception to the rule? And why do we have it in this particular pattern i.e. not just one species, but a group of species that also have a lot of other things in common.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 10:24:31 PM
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cih92
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quote:
Now what can we say from a creationist perspective?
Was it God's intention from the beginning that we not produce our own Vitamin C like other mammals? If so, why is the gene there at all? Wouldn't it make more sense to just leave it out than to put it in and then disable it? Would God intentionally create us with a broken gene?
And why disable, in the very same way, the same gene in other hominids, but differently in a non-hominid mammal? And why only in this small group of mammals?
Maybe God created the first humans without any broken genes, but then after years and years of producing offspring, human genetic material started to develop mutations so that we could not produce our own vitamin C.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 10:32:38 PM
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cih92
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Those who believe in creationism can respond to the argument mentioned in the OP by saying, "The similarity between chimps and humans shows that there is a common Creator or That is just the way that God created chimps and humans." Is there any other way that a creationist could respond to the argument in the OP?
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/9/2008 10:43:57 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cih92
Maybe God created the first humans without any broken genes, but then after years and years of producing offspring, human genetic material started to develop mutations so that we could not produce our own vitamin C.
That would make sense if this broken gene were found only in humans. But it is also found in other hominids (chimps, gorillas, orangutans). And significantly, it is exactly the same mutation that is the problem. How probable is it that among the 4,000-odd species of mammals, it is precisely this group and no other whose Vitamin-C gene is disabled by mutations? And why is it exactly the same problem?
It is like supposing that of all the vehicles (including several different model lines) produced by the same manufacturer, only those in town X broke down and they all had the same problem even across model lines.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/10/2008 8:46:01 AM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
But for this to be a valid analogy, one would also have to suppose that your hostess deliberately made the same error in her recipes, and Francine Rivers deliberately misspelled "sardonic" in a small group of her novels which also happened to feature some of the same characters.
You're assuming the gene is an error, for one thing. How do you know it's a mutation?
Second, we don't know what kinds of changes happened to our world when man fell. When sin entered the world, so did death and disease. A change in genes may have been a part of it.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/10/2008 9:02:46 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
But for this to be a valid analogy, one would also have to suppose that your hostess deliberately made the same error in her recipes, and Francine Rivers deliberately misspelled "sardonic" in a small group of her novels which also happened to feature some of the same characters.
You're assuming the gene is an error, for one thing. How do you know it's a mutation?
Second, we don't know what kinds of changes happened to our world when man fell. When sin entered the world, so did death and disease. A change in genes may have been a part of it.
We know the gene exists in all mammals and is functional in the vast majority of mammals. We know how the DNA sequence is different in hominids. This is the very definition of a mutation. We know how this difference renders the gene non-functional (by creating a premature stop codon)
If sin is the cause, one has to ask one of two questions:
Why does it not affect humans only, since humans are the only species to sin?
or
Why does it affect hominids only and not all mammals? Or at least a good many of them.
Finally, we DO know what kinds of changes happened in our world when man fell, because they are explicitly laid out in Genesis 3: 14-24.
Anything else is invented out of human imagination and has no scriptural support.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/10/2008 10:16:26 AM
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mvic
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I doubt very much whether we'll resolve the mystery of evolution in this thread - or ever.
The gene mutation, (if this is what it was), could have happened for a variety of reasons along the way from pre-historic man to now. Radiation resulting from extra-terrestrial planetary debris falling on earth perhaps. The ice age ... whatever.
My question about chimpanzees may have been in jest. But what if it were serious?
To suggest that some chimpanzees evolved into man and others didn't isn't an acceptable answer. As one would ask - why? Why did some chimpanzees not evolve?
Do we know for a fact which ape man has evolved from? Was it a chimpanzee, gorilla, marmoset or what?
What if I were to say that man evolved from man. Pre-historic man may have looked like an ape, may have behaved like an ape; but he was always a man.
He just evolved by standing on two legs, shedding his hairy overcoat and learning to use a computer. And no doubt this very man will continue to evolve in future to adapt to his ever changing environment.
But he is still a man. Evolving at his own pace. Just like the different apes are evolving at their own pace. Each following their own "railway track" but at not time these tracks meet or inter-mingle.
Is mine a daft theory? Or just as valid as Darwin's?
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/10/2008 12:14:42 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
My question about chimpanzees may have been in jest. But what if it were serious?
To suggest that some chimpanzees evolved into man and others didn't isn't an acceptable answer. As one would ask - why? Why did some chimpanzees not evolve?
This is a slight misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. It is not that man evolved from modern chimpanzees. Evolution suggests that man and chimpanzees evolved from a common ancestor. Both manking and chimpanzees have evolved (in different ways) from that common ancestor.
quote:
Do we know for a fact which ape man has evolved from? Was it a chimpanzee, gorilla, marmoset or what?
Since chimps, I believe, have the greatest genetic similarity to humans, chimps and humans were the last to separate (had the most recent common ancestor), but this is not the same as saying that we came from chimps.
quote:
What if I were to say that man evolved from man. Pre-historic man may have looked like an ape, may have behaved like an ape; but he was always a man.
He just evolved by standing on two legs, shedding his hairy overcoat and learning to use a computer. And no doubt this very man will continue to evolve in future to adapt to his ever changing environment.
But he is still a man. Evolving at his own pace. Just like the different apes are evolving at their own pace. Each following their own "railway track" but at not time these tracks meet or inter-mingle.
Is mine a daft theory? Or just as valid as Darwin's?
It's a strange combination of daft and clever. You could decide for yourself which of these species were 'men', and trace the lineage back as far as you're willing to go, erasing any branches that suggested intermingling.
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-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/10/2008 1:25:49 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
If sin is the cause, one has to ask one of two questions:
Why does it not affect humans only, since humans are the only species to sin?
or
Why does it affect hominids only and not all mammals? Or at least a good many of them.
Finally, we DO know what kinds of changes happened in our world when man fell, because they are explicitly laid out in Genesis 3: 14-24.
I don't believe the curses listed in that list are explicity laid out. Anything in this world that is not right can be traced back to the fall of man. Disease is one good example of an affect of the fall that is not listed in that passage. I believe that anything in this world that is good is good because God created it good, and anything in this world that is not good is not good because of the fall of man.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/10/2008 3:04:14 PM
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swan42
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quote:
Do we know for a fact which ape man has evolved from? Was it a chimpanzee, gorilla, marmoset or what?
We know for a fact that man did not evolve from any known living species of ape, that's not how evolution works.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/10/2008 3:05:13 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Disease is one good example of an affect of the fall that is not listed in that passage. I believe that anything in this world that is good is good because God created it good, and anything in this world that is not good is not good because of the fall of man.
But is that what scripture says? In particular, does scripture say that what is not good in our judgment is not good in God's judgment?
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/10/2008 3:11:12 PM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
I doubt very much whether we'll resolve the mystery of evolution in this thread - or ever.
The gene mutation, (if this is what it was), could have happened for a variety of reasons along the way from pre-historic man to now. Radiation resulting from extra-terrestrial planetary debris falling on earth perhaps. The ice age ... whatever.
It doesn't matter what caused it. What matters is where it is found. NOT only in humans (pre-historic or otherwise), but also in other apes. Yet ONLY in the hominid family and not in other mammals.
quote:
To suggest that some chimpanzees evolved into man and others didn't isn't an acceptable answer. As one would ask - why? Why did some chimpanzees not evolve?
You are right. It is not acceptable, and that is why no one makes that claim. Chimpanzees did evolve, alongside us, from our common ancestor.
quote:
Do we know for a fact which ape man has evolved from? Was it a chimpanzee, gorilla, marmoset or what?
As others have said, not from any living species, but from an earlier species that was a common ancestor to the various living ape species.
quote:
What if I were to say that man evolved from man. Pre-historic man may have looked like an ape, may have behaved like an ape; but he was always a man.
Would that include the Australopithecines?
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/10/2008 5:23:49 PM
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protopath
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Hackers hate rewriting code, and in fact call a good hacker lazy because he reuses the same code over and over. Why redo work that has already been done?
God, being the greatest hacker ever, reused the same code over and over, look at how much genetic similarity there is between us and mice. Not that I'm calling God lazy, but economy, preservation, and not wasting are certainly attributes of Him.
Furthermore, after the fall it is quite possible that viri became destructive and since we share so much genetic similarity are susceptible to the same infections. And I know with mice you can see pieces of virus in the code. Also it is possible that God wanted hominids to eat fruit, so he commented out the portion of code that reduced dependence on fruit.
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RE: Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestry? - 8/10/2008 5:40:00 PM
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swan42
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quote:
after the fall it is quite possible that viri became destructive
Viri are quite destructive. ERVs are the destructive evidence that Viri leave that tell a history of genetic evolution.
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