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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 7:52:54 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
[The revelation of God] should be apparent but it's not to many.
Why? Certain ones are blinded? Unable to comprehend?
No, certain one choose to suppress this knowledge with urighteousness.
The Light came into the world, but men loved darkness.
God didn't suppress their knowledge, they did.
God didn't make them love the darkness, they choose it.
Man is stubborn. Man is stiffnecked. Man is obstinate.
All by nature, but all because the do what they want to do.
God is the author of our unrighteous desires and wants? I think not.
quote:
Besides, even when it is, this knowledge doesn't result in salvation for most.
Yes, but the internal witness every man is born with is still there.
This is what enables him to recognize his sin, the first necessary step in repentance.
quote:
to which the Lord responded "Jesus answered them,
Have not I chosen you twelve,....? They were "chosen" before they
believed. This is an excellent example of individual election to salvation.
This is an excellent example of election for purpose.
One he "chose" was a traitor and an apostate.
Actually, I don't believe any of them saved until they received the Holy Spirit
and that didn't happen until Jesus breathed on them in Ch. 20.
quote:
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou
hast given me; for they are thine." Another excellent example of individual
election to salvation. So, we must be careful not to miss all that
Christ is teaching in these passages.
The "world" being each person in the world.
Those who believe are elect.
quote:
No one's arguing that Jezebel/the false prophets were unwilling to repent.
Then how can you say they were unable to repent?
Can we be unwilling to do what we are unable?
I suppose I could be unwilling to make myself disappear, right?
quote:
It is the responsibility of everyone to repent and believe; but,
because we are in bondage to sin and Satan, we won't.
Man is responsible for what he cannot do. Wrong. Adam was responsible
because he had a choice. The fact that God foreknew his choice is irrelevant.
Kind of like boy with no arms he failed his assignment for not typing the essay.
quote:
What I don't get is why you think the angels of Luke 15:10 are omniscient? Why wouldn't they be joyful at the salvation of the sinner?
All heaven includes God.
Oh, I forgot - "all" doesn't mean "all" ---------sorry.
quote:
You asked: "why was God "sorry he ever created man"?
The answer lies in free will, not double predestination"
I said the answer lies in God's judgment for sin which was declared when
Adam sinned. IOW, not in free will or some double predestination.
Yes, the answer lies in God's righteousness and judgment, but it
can make no sense if determinism is true. What, God was sorry for
his own eternal decree? It can only make sense if free will is true.
As for double predestination, its Calvinist theology. I hope you don't deny it.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 8:49:17 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
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kelman,
quote:
The LORD works out everything for his own ends—even the wicked for a day of disaster.
That is a pretty strong text on how He works things out.......and for His own ends no less.
That reminds me again of the grant of faith and His work in a person.
Both from Philippians 1;
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
and;
29For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
I have always looked at this all as being done for His sake.......His own ends.
Saving people seems to be something done for God and His own pleasure.....not because He owes anybody anything for any reason.
You post;
quote:
[The revelation of God] should be apparent but it's not to many.
And you are met with;
quote:
Why? Certain ones are blinded? Unable to comprehend?
No, certain one choose to suppress this knowledge with urighteousness.
The Light came into the world, but men loved darkness.
God didn't suppress their knowledge, they did.
God didn't make them love the darkness, they choose it.
Man is stubborn. Man is stiffnecked. Man is obstinate.
Strange that we would have text showing that people could not turn (repent) because He has blinded and hardened them;
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they might not perceive with their eyes, and understand with their mind and turn, and I would heal them."
Here you are being told that mans own internal witness is the great enabler;
quote:
Yes, but the internal witness every man is born with is still there.
This is what enables him to recognize his sin, the first necessary step in repentance.
The Bible says it is God that makes the difference and enables;
And he said, This is why I said to you, No man is able to come to me if he is not given the power to do so by the Father. (Bible in basic English)
That shows man does not need an internal witness to turn him.
Man needs the power of God and without this power men remain powerless.
"Unable" is the right word to fit the situation because not having the power of God is "inability".
John 6 sheds enormous light on the gravity of the situation;
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
People are told by Jesus Himself.....and they still do not believe. He clarifies what needs to happen. His Father gives people to His Son and those people come to His Son.
Like you said, free-willers try to make "foreknowledge" mean that God saw people coming to His Son (turning in faith) and He elects them because they were coming to His Son (turning in faith).
In that case it should read; All the people that the Father has seen coming to Me will come to Me........
We know such is not the case.
In John 6 we find that Jesus Christ knows all of this sort of talk is offensive to people and He calls them on it.
It offends the natural senses of the natural man because the natural man always has some sort of inner and strong self desire to attribute the works of repentance, faith, and enabling to himself.
Jesus claims clearly that the flesh (natural man) counts for nothing......a big fat nothing!
That does not sit well with the carnal (fleshly) man at all and is actually a total assault on his character and ability.
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
These people that He is speaking to.......the "some of you that do not believe".....they just have not been enabled and that is exactly what He is telling them.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 9:26:08 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Oh, I forgot - "all" doesn't mean "all" ---------sorry.
Playful sarcasm aside...(what fun is that...LOL !)
Have you read The Bible with this understanding ?
All is not always all & world is not always world.
It makes more sense than what you are "FORCING".
Additionally, God's outcome doesn't support your version.
WADR rwe, just read, and The Holy Ghost will enlighten.
Let's make it easy for discussion purposes, and try to
avoid the nomadic, wandering posting convolution...
---what REALLY are your dissents with Calvinism ?
1) You don't like total depravity
2) You believe something precedes something.
IOW, what's the order of events that you approve of ?
3) God is ever-evolving (evidenced by His mind changing)
4) Perseverance & works ?
Don't assume anyone understands ANYTHING ~~~
Say it like it's the first time you wrote it !
And with fresh eyes it will be the "first time" we read it.
(for some it might ACTUALLY be the first time...LOL !)
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 9:35:31 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You asked: "why was God "sorry he ever created man"?
The answer lies in free will, not double predestination"
I said the answer lies in God's judgment for sin which was declared when
Adam sinned. IOW, not in free will or some double predestination.
Yes, the answer lies in God's righteousness and judgment, but it
can make no sense if determinism is true. What, God was sorry for
his own eternal decree? It can only make sense if free will is true.
Why do you assume God was sorry ?
Why humanize God for your comfort ?
What will God repent of in the future ?
Take an educated guess why don't you ?
What if he changes His mind about you ?
You are the one who advocates God's repenting-
Let's say in the future, God changes His mind
about your eternal security and place in Heaven.
In the world of "RWE doctrine"-this could happen !
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 9:50:46 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
God knows all possible outcomes of all possible decisions.
Several seemed to jump on this post rwe !
Why do you think that is ?
Is God a just super-amped-up computer ?
Your illustration depicts God as running an
enormous program with infinite computations.
If God ever got bored (maybe you believe He
does since you assign Him other human traits)
maybe He would do this or play super-sudoku.
The point is...why does God have tangencies ?
God declares, decrees, foreordains, and announces
and then it comes to pass EXACTLY as He said.
Isn't that what makes Him God in the first place ?
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 10:38:51 AM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3905
Joined: 3/30/2007
Status: offline
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Excellent posts, brothers!
rwe,
quote:
Oh, I forgot - "all" doesn't mean "all" ---------sorry.
"Did you finish all of your homework?" the junior high student's mom asked.
(Mom only meant the homework for the night, not all of the homework for the entire school year.)
The next night, the student decided to make dinner for her family. She didn't like it and therefore ate little off her plate.
"Finish all of your food, dear," her dad said.
(Her dad was referring to the food remaining on her plate, not all of the food that she prepared for the family's dinner.)
So we see that sometimes all doesn't mean all even though it means all. We have to understand through the context what all really means.
This verse that KJB shared is enlightening:
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
If God the Father gives ALL men to Jesus, then ALL of them will be saved. We know that not ALL of the earth's population are saved. Why is that? The verse already said that ALL that the Father gives to Jesus will come to him. The ALL is comprised of ALL of the people that God chose from the foundation of the world.
And before you start in with Molinism to explain away God knowing how people may or may not choose and adjusting Himself accordingly, remember that the verse above said "All that the Father gives me will come to me."
That's very clearly stated.
It does not say all that the Father--who can see various permutations and possibilities and through his incredibly complex ability to shuffle through all of these potential outcomes might give to Jesus because it really depends upon how someone might choose rather than all powerful, all knowing, all sovereign God whose counsel stands being completely in charge of who he chooses to save and who he chooses not to save as the BIble shows over and over--gives me will come to me.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 4:55:35 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
but a pattern of life - of continual, willful disobedience. Of course it is
possible for someone to "backslide" for years possibly - but what to do?
friend ,so you are saying it is possible to be a pagan for a few years while being saved, like Solomon was. That is what I also was saying.
There is no "somewhat saved", or "somewhat pregnant" etc. its Yes or No. You clearly agree that Sol was saved during the years when he was worshipping other gods.
That is the same thing I am saying. I am not sure what the contention is about then.
quote:
There is not one single solitary shred of biblical evidence for this belief - that atheists or pagans can ever be said to be saved
K, the same thing.You just said in the post that Solomon was saved, as was evidenced by his later repentance. I am not against it, if you think he repented, fine, he did. I agree.
But the fact remains - Solomon was, for a certain period of time,a pagan and saved at the same time.
I lost you gentlemen. 
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 5:26:06 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
[The revelation of God] should be apparent but it's not to many.
Why? Certain ones are blinded? Unable to comprehend? Do you deny God blinds some?....He says He does.
quote:
No, certain one choose to suppress this knowledge with urighteousness.
The Light came into the world, but men loved darkness. No, all suppress the knowledge of God in unrighteousness. All dishonor God. All deserve the wrath of God because of our ungodliness.
quote:
God is the author of our unrighteous desires and wants? I think not.
I don't recall anyone saying He was.
quote:
quote:
Besides, even when it is, this knowledge doesn't result in salvation for most.
Yes, but the internal witness every man is born with is still there. True, man is born with a conscience; but, this doesn't result in salvation either.
quote:
This is what enables him to recognize his sin, the first necessary step in repentance. Man can recognize his sin 'til he's blue in his face - won't help him.
quote:
quote:
to which the Lord responded "Jesus answered them,
Have not I chosen you twelve,....? They were "chosen" before they
believed. This is an excellent example of individual election to salvation.
This is an excellent example of election for purpose. Yep, the purpose of salvation - first - to eleven of them.
quote:
Actually, I don't believe any of them saved until they received the Holy Spirit
and that didn't happen until Jesus breathed on them in Ch. 20.
Not possible. On the day of Pentecost, Mary the mother of Jesus was numbered among the 120. Was she not saved until that day?
Besides, Scripture clearly shows the faith of the Apostles in Mat 16:16 and John 6:69.
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered.....for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
If that's not the evidence of salvation, I don't know what is.
quote:
quote:
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou
hast given me; for they are thine." Another excellent example of individual
election to salvation. So, we must be careful not to miss all that
Christ is teaching in these passages.
The "world" being each person in the world. Precisely, Christ says He prays ONLY for those given to Him by the Father. Those the Father chose from before the foundation of the world.
quote:
Those who believe are elect. Nope, not possible. Then you simply have man choosing to be elect.
quote:
quote:
No one's arguing that Jezebel/the false prophets were unwilling to repent.
Then how can you say they were unable to repent? I've said many times people can repent of some of their sins. But, a true godly repentance is that which flows from the new born again spiritual soul.
quote:
Can we be unwilling to do what we are unable? Man is so morally corrupt he is unable to truly repent, he has no desire to do so - until God regenerates him.
quote:
quote:
It is the responsibility of everyone to repent and believe; but,
because we are in bondage to sin and Satan, we won't.
Man is responsible for what he cannot do. Wrong. Sure, God gives examples of this throughout Scripture. We are made in God's image and are responsible to be obedient.
quote:
Adam was responsible
because he had a choice. The fact that God foreknew his choice is irrelevant. Man chooses all the time. He chooses to not honor God, he chooses to not obey God. God more than "foreknew" Adam would sin.
quote:
quote:
What I don't get is why you think the angels of Luke 15:10 are omniscient? Why wouldn't they be joyful at the salvation of the sinner?
All heaven includes God. Luke 15:10 does not say "all heaven". Though, I see no reason why God would not rejoice when He converts an individual.
God gives us the parable of the one stray sheep and the lost coin, the "woman" who finds her lost "coin" and the "man" who finds his lost "sheep" both ask others to rejoice with them. Both the man and the woman would be a picture of Christ who rejoices over the salvation of the one He owns - the repentant sinner.
In fact, there are some passages which lend themselves to this idea of God rejoicing over His Bride or the ones He loves.
As the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you. -Isaiah 62:5
The Lord your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing. -Zephaniah 3:17
quote:
Yes, the answer lies in God's righteousness and judgment, but it
can make no sense if determinism is true. What, God was sorry for
his own eternal decree? It can only make sense if free will is true.
It only makes sense when we stop believing that it is possible for God to change His mind. God does not change His mind, it is impossible for God to lack knowledge. This is the theology(God's deficient omniscience) that you and the other free willer's present but it simply isn't true....according to Scripture.
quote:
As for double predestination, its Calvinist theology. I hope you don't deny it. That depends on what you think double predestination actually is. If you mean that God shows mercy sovereignly and unconditionally to some, and gives justice to those passed over in election, then no, I don't deny it.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 7:29:44 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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Manna -
This actually happened to me this week:
As I looked into the eyes of the woman I was witnessing to,
the sense that she was spiritually dead and totally unable to
understand anything I was saying was OVERWHELMING to me.
It was like I was talking to my dog!
A couple days later I was reviewing the whole episode and
thought "Maybe those Calvy guys are right, she hasn't been
chosen for salvation" ------------Nawwwwww, I'm not giving
up because I don't believe any person is beyond salvation.
I am praying about this, praying for God to show me
a different light if the light I walk in is not fully truthful.
quote:
Don't assume anyone understands ANYTHING ~~~
Say it like it's the first time you wrote it !
And with fresh eyes it will be the "first time" we read it.
(for some it might ACTUALLY be the first time...LOL !)
I apologize for my poor posting techniques. KJB is quite right-
I am a bit of a rabbit chaser and a rambler. I will do my absolute
best to keep the posts short on on one point.
quote:
You don't like Total Depravity.
First off, its irrelevant whether I "like" something or not. I
want to know the Truth and there are some things in the Bible
I don't "like" but accept as true. I am ready and willing to
accept depravity or election as true, but it must be consistent
with God's character, plan of redemption, view of man, and
covenant relationship.
Perhaps we should start by defining what we think it is:
I understand it to be the fact we are corrupt as a result of the Fall
and as such are incapable of any righteousness before God.
-Objections-
a) I reject the doctrine of Original Sin. We are not born guilty of Adam' sin,
we inherit a sin nature and are held responsible for our own sin, not someone else's.
b)We are not as evil as we could be. Even some Calvinist theologians
admit we are not 100% depraved.
c) ALL men (each and every one, not some) are created in God's image and
therefore possess an inner moral witness and an ability to recognize sin.
d) Total Inability/Depravity is tied into "God's Eternal Decree". Determinism on
it surface is utterly false to me because in the end it assaults God's character and
turns covenant relationship into a charade.
e)Whatever depravity is or is not, I do not think men can believe the
gospel without some kind of enabling.
quote:
2) You believe something precedes something.
So do you.
-Objections -
a) This reverses the order of salvation which I believe the bible tells us is this:
Repent and believe the Gospel and you will receive the Holy Spirit.
Whatever heart or mind opening occurs, it cannot be regeneration
else the person would be saved to believe, not believe to be saved.
There would be no conditions to be met for God to do his work.
quote:
3) God is ever-evolving (evidenced by His mind changing)
-Objection
a) I do not believe God is "ever-evolving". However, I think my theology is. 
I have revised my view of "changed his mind" in the literal sense that we change our minds.
b) I totally reject determinism. I think it is apparent God responds to man.
Although this is an odious thought to a determinist, I believe this is exactly
what all those verses show us.
c) Since I reject determinism and believe man is a free agent of choice,
therefore God must have knowledge of every possible decision as well as
the results of every possible decision and all the permutations and combinations
of the future depending on the decision.
I find the "middle knowledge" of Molinism quite interesting.
c) The very admission a statement by God is conditional proves there is
a response of God to a decision of man. Whether or not God foreknows
what the man will do is irrelevant, unless of course, you erroneously define
foreknowledge the way a determinist must.
quote:
Perseverance & works ?
We'll have little disagreement on this.
I believe the doctrine of Perseverance is true because I view our
salvation as a supernatural work of God and not a work of man.
That being said, I think OSAS as taught today is a heresy.
I believe we are eternally secure and at the same time we cannot
throw away what we never had to begin with.
I think fruit and sanctification are inevitable and I believe
holiness is a guarantee for the true believer.
I'm not totally sure what LS is, but I do think every believer
is a disciple of Jesus Christ and as such he is the Lord and
Master of their lives, the "author and perfector" of their faith.
My main objection to Calvinism is determinism.
If determinism is proven false, then there are huge problems
with Calvinism's view of the soverignty and it resultant pre-salvation theology.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 7:33:22 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Why do you assume God was sorry ?
Why humanize God for your comfort ?
Gen 6:6
The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
John 11:35
Jesus wept.
quote:
What if he changes His mind about you ?
He did!
quote:
Let's say in the future, God changes His mind
about your eternal security and place in Heaven.
In the world of "RWE doctrine"-this could happen !
Not true, Manna. When God saves he never "unsaves".
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 7:34:33 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
God is THE Determiner...don't you believe that ?
Nope.
He determines, he allows, he desires.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 7:36:06 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
God declares, decrees, foreordains, and announces
and then it comes to pass EXACTLY as He said.
Isn't that what makes Him God in the first place ?
This is what determinism does: God in a box.
You can't account for your sin without making God the author of it.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 7:42:30 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
This verse that KJB shared is enlightening:
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
If God the Father gives ALL men to Jesus, then ALL of them will be saved. We know that not ALL of the earth's population are saved. Why is that? The verse already said that ALL that the Father gives to Jesus will come to him. The ALL is comprised of ALL of the people that God chose from the foundation of the world.
Oh my gosh, this is not a universal statement.
"All" can be all of a certain group, sure. Like "Give me all your blue marbles,
as opposed to "Give me all your marbles".
A univeral "all" occurs in Acts 17:30 saying "all men everywhere" - a clear
reference to .....................all men everywhere - each and every man
everywhere in the earth.
quote:
It does not say all that the Father--who can see various permutations and possibilities and through his incredibly complex ability to shuffle through all of these potential outcomes might give to
That verse isn't even arguable in terms of middle knowledge.
That verse is specific about a specific group of people. You can't build a
doctrine on one verse, dear.
"All who the Father gives me" have met a condition.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 8:13:54 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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I think this is for me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
friend ,so you are saying it is possible to be a pagan for a few years
while being saved, like Solomon was. .
No.
Acting like a pagan doesn't make one a pagan, and acting like
a Christian doesn't make one a Christian, either.
All I am saying is if I call myself a duck, at some time or another you should find
me quacking, waddling, swimming, flying, or possibly ruffling my feathers.
Notice I didn't say constantly, 24/7? But I am talking about a pattern of life,
a persistent, wilful, determined life and lifestyle that denies Christ.
Abiding ought to mean something.
quote:
There is no "somewhat saved", or "somewhat pregnant" etc. its
Yes or No. You clearly agree that Sol was saved during the years when he
was worshipping other gods. That is the same thing I am saying.
I am not sure what the contention is about then.
The contention is whether or not faith is expected to be a reality.
It is whether someone can live their entire live denying the very
thing that as supposedly made them a new person.
If we are transformed, we are transformed!
Why expect so little of something so radical?
Why justify a deluded one who has simply made a choice,
but has experienced nothing?
I'm really weary of the "leave at the gate, see you on the other side" mentality.
Jesus said there is a narrow road. The gate is not the gate to heaven, dear, it
is the gate that leads to the narrow road and at the end of that road the Father waits.
Admittedly some will finish running in great strides and some barely crawling.
The other "justified" ones will be left wondering ---- at the gate.
Odeliya - if you have a ticket to get into the movie, its useless only for the movie.
Salvation is not simply "Ticket, please" but "Welcome to the show!".
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 8:36:48 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Do you deny God blinds some?....He says He does.
His will shouldn't be a secret.
quote:
No, all suppress the knowledge of God in unrighteousness.
All dishonor God. All deserve the wrath of God because of our ungodliness.
No, not all. Romans 1 is clearly not speaking of all men.
quote:
RWE: God is the author of our unrighteous desires and wants? I think not.
KELMAN: I don't recall anyone saying He was.
You don't need to if you believe God's eternal decree.
Either God determines everything or he doesn't, even our sin.
quote:
True, man is born with a conscience; but, this doesn't result in salvation either.
Never said it did.
Man is not 100% depraved.
quote:
Man can recognize his sin 'til he's blue in his face - won't help him.
Do you believe man can recognize his sin?
quote:
RWE: This is an excellent example of election for purpose.
KM: Yep, the purpose of salvation - first - to eleven of them.
Sorry, I think the context is about purpose, not salvation.
quote:
Not possible. On the day of Pentecost, Mary the mother of Jesus
was numbered among the 120. Was she not saved until that day?
Why bring up Mary?
The Bible says we receive the Holy Spirit after we repent and believe.
quote:
Besides, Scripture clearly shows the faith of the Apostles in Mat 16:16 and John 6:69.
Is our salvation complete simply because we believe?
I understand how you view this because you think we receive the HS
before we have faith.
quote:
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
If that's not the evidence of salvation, I don't know what is.
So you think a person's confession of faith is evidence of salvation?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 1:08:03 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3905
Joined: 3/30/2007
Status: offline
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rwe,
quote:
Oh my gosh, this is not a universal statement.
"All" can be all of a certain group, sure. Like "Give me all your blue marbles,
as opposed to "Give me all your marbles".
I totally agree which is why I included beforehand the made up examples of the child and his/her homeword and dinner...
quote:
A univeral "all" occurs in Acts 17:30 saying "all men everywhere" - a clear
reference to .....................all men everywhere - each and every man
everywhere in the earth.
True. It's a universal "all" in the sense that it shows that God now includes the Gentiles, not just the Jews.
quote:
That verse is specific about a specific group of people.
Exactly. It's about the elect.
quote:
That verse is specific about a specific group of people. You can't build a
doctrine on one verse, dear.
Again, I totally agree. I was simply commenting on the verse that KJB shared. Here are additional ones:
Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Colossians 3:12
“Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved…”
Titus 1:1
“Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness…”
1 Peter 2:8-9
“They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”
[Notice that word destined. It's an interesting word in that it reveals an unavoidable otucome. Destined...And destined by God at that. No contingencies exist based upon their choices because God has already destined and determined that they would stumble.]
Revelation 17:14
“They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”
Mark 13:20
“And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.”
Acts 13:48
“And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”
Philippians 1:29
“For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,”
James 2:5
“Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?”
2 Timothy 2:10
“Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.”
Romans 9:10-24
Ephesians 1:5-6
“In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.”
[Notice that it doesn't say "according to his foresight and ability to juggle all possible permutations and combinations." It clearly says "according to the purpose of his will" and we also know from scripture that His counsel stands forever...]
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 1:11:24 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3905
Joined: 3/30/2007
Status: offline
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Just in case all of those other verses weren't enough , I wanted to post two more:
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5
“For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.”
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
“But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 3:04:15 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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shemaromans,
Those are all some very solid Scripture text on choice and I know we think alike on the issue.
Here is one of them you posted;
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5
“For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.
You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.”
That is an excellent text you used and I notice how that text points out that the gospel message did not only come to them (those chosen by God) in words only.
It did come in words and by preachers no doubt, but it is specific and clear that these recipients did not only have people preaching the gospel to them.
The gospel message was given to them in words as an outward call but words on their own would never have had any effect. What made the call effectual was the "all-surpassing" power of God at work.
Why did this "all-surpassing" power of God work in them?
You and I know it was because He loved them. That is why.
He loved them in spite of their sinful nature and sin. He loved them in spite of their unrepentant hearts and their unbelief and rejection of truth.
It reminds me of this;
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
The people (those chosen by God) were convicted when they heard the words because the power of God convicted them.
When they profess to believe the gospel it does not make them instant sinless creatures......it makes them saved even though they are sinful creatures.
God made these people believe and that is how we know they are brothers loved by the Lord. And some people that are loved by the Lord can be some very hard people to love.
It also reminds me of this;
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.
Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
It is not that we turned our hearts in repentance to gain His love.
It is not as if we caused ourselves to believe and that gained His love.
God made us alive out of pure and undeserved mercy because He exercised His love on us even when we did nothing at all to merit this love.
It is wonderful to read your posts.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 4:30:17 PM
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