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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 9:00:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
There's no glory for God in compelling us to do something as if we were robots. You may be right - man may not have free will. And if that is the case, then God is not glorified.
Where does God declare this?
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 9:02:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
ANALOGY TWO:
The Lord says to Satan: Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, one that fears God and eschews evil?
Satan: Does Job fear God for nothing? Haven't you put a hedge about him and his house and everything that he has? Touch what he has and he will curse you to your face. He only blesses you because of what he has! Touch his flesh and bone and he will curse you to your face.
God: Are you kidding me? That boy's going to keep on blessing me, because I will compel him to bless me. He has no choice in the matter!
Satan: Then he only blesses you because you compel him to. Give him free will and he will curse you to your face. In other words, God, Job's blessing of you is not real - it's a farce!
If these analogies don't agree with your understanding of man's will, then tell me how they should be revised.
It was only by God's hand that Job didn't curse God... Man alone cannot grapple with Satan...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 9:04:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
What is love if we have no choice to hate?
The love that God had to place in us in order for us to love Him...
quote:
Or obedience is we have no choice to disobey?
Obedience stems from God acting in our life... Not ourselves..
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 10:09:27 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3905
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
If these analogies don't agree with your understanding of man's will, then tell me how they should be revised.
First (slightly off topic), I would be a little more thoughtful and careful before using the word farce again.
Second, I would take a step back for a while and really try to understand RT without the puppet/robot exaggerations. They're one-dimensional "cliches" that don't appear to do justice to your intelligence that your writing style shows.
Third, think about this: "Free" will is a misnomer. If man really has a "free" will, then that would mean that he's autonomous. If he's autonomous, then there's no greater will than his own. Nothing and no one can control it other than himself. If there's no greater will than his own, then he's God. And if he's God, then God isn't. If we truly believe that God's sovereign, then we know assuredly that His will will always overpower the human will if that's what God determines.
Finally, I would spend some time considering compatibilism. Following the line of thought in #3 above, we have a will but we don't have a "free" will. Our will is bound to and controlled by our sinful nature from birth. After we're saved, we're also controlled to a certain extent by the Holy Spirit. Compatibilism allows for man's will, but God's will always supersedes human will if the two collide, so to speak.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 10:10:16 PM
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KingJamesBond
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SophiesLadder,
quote:
Then let us acknowledge that the human will is not free in all areas. I am not free to be God, for example. The question remains do men have any freedom, and if so, what is it? Also, can the extent of man's will be derived from the concept of God's glory, which I alluded to earlier? Let me explain here.
The question is do men have any freedom?
Even people held captive in a prison cell have some freedom while waiting to be executed for a crime that merited the death penalty. They might be free to roll around on the floor, free to jump up and down, free to write on the walls, and a host of other trivial things. In the grand scheme of things they are still held captive and will not escape the death penalty unless someone was to set them free or they can escape.
When we look at the situation from a Biblical perspective it does no justice to think of things in these ways. (Prison cells and puppet strings etc.)
We can ask ourselves how free people are in all sorts of things and this thread has gone over those points many times.
Can people choose mayo instead of mustard? Well yeah, as long as God did not bring them up in some land of famine. I mean it is not the choice of kids to be born and grow up in Sudan is it? Can most of the children in Haiti pick which color they like? Well yeah, but most of them will never be able to apply that color to a choice of car and they probably have a multitude of other more important issues on their mind like where they might get their next meal.
The point of free-will always leads to a certain and specific thing that people are either capable of doing or not capable of doing and not a variety of other things. That is what the Free-will/Calvinist debate is all about. It is about salvation and if people are capable all on their own of turning to the only way of salvation......Jesus Christ.
The Calvinist claims that people are unable to do this even though people may be capable of doing all sorts of other things. People by nature are not even willing to turn to Jesus Christ.
The free-willer seems to suppose that people can turn to Jesus Christ all of their own will.
That in essence is the debate so it sort of does nothing for any of us to use puppet analogies.
God knew Job better than both Satan and Job did. Why do you think that might be? Because God made Job........not Satan or Job.
quote:
If these analogies don't agree with your understanding of man's will, then tell me how they should be revised.
I already gave this verdict once but I am more than willing to give it again;
19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Now after reading that text the only thing a person really needs to do is take a good and Biblical look at themselves. Apply the verdict.
Yup, that is all it takes.
If people look in the mirror with a "convicted" heart they will have an honest estimation of themselves and then it becomes more and more clear HOW a person came into the Light.
They understand it was not by "self".
All it takes is truth in honesty and a soul will clearly see that those who do evil WILL NOT COME into the light.
They just will not do it. I dont know what else to say.
It is a pretty hard truth to swallow for all the people that like to think so much of themselves and hold such a high regard towards their wills. They cant accept it. It rubs against the grain.
There have been certain persons on this forum that do not and have not thought of themselves as evil so of course they do not see the true nature of their condition and the truth of the matter and therefore they do not apply that text to themselves.
As for those that do evil.....they will not come into the Light.
Like I already told you.....I was in the "will not come" crowd.
That is me to a "T".
I know it was God that caused me to turn. It had to have been!
The verdict had me down pat.
God reads me like a cheap comic book.
As for you, it is for you to decide if you came into the Light by your own will.
I can tell you about me though.......
19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
That is me up there in that verdict that Jesus was talking about. That is me.
If you came by yourself, so be it.
As for me.....I loved darkness instread of the Light.
I was not willing to come.
Now that I have come I can only say God must have done it and it is an absolute miracle that an evil faithless sinner like myself was saved.
I probably belong more in the Rahab group and not the Cornelius group.
What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
God will show both wrath and mercy to the objects of His wrath and the objects of His mercy.
These objects of mercy were prepared in advance by Him for glory.
How He does every little detail I just dont know.....but He does it and that I know.
Take care,
KJB
< Message edited by KingJamesBond -- 10/13/2008 10:22:28 PM >
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 10:38:39 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3905
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
The Atonement is for all who believe.
Whosoever believes will be saved.
But not all will believe.
Why stop there? 
But not all will believe because...
(A) not all will choose to believe? Nope.
(B) God hasn't given them to the son? Yep. 
I hope I don't pick apart your response too much below. There's a lot of great ideas to talk about. :) If you'd like for me to reply to something that I've left out, please ask.
quote:
No question this is a great struggle for me.
I respect your honesty.
quote:
First, I look to God's character - is God primarily a god of lovingkindness
or wrath and justice? Do the word search: lovingkindness 177 vs.
Both lovingkindness and justice (righteousness).
Which versions have you searched? Have you looked for words other than wrath and justice? Maybe something about the law? What about stiffnecked?
quote:
What is God's main intention towards mankind? Destruction or salvation?
Why does it have to be focused on mankind? How about what is God's purpose and how does mankind fit into that purpose?
quote:
Is election a picking and choosing or is election conditional? Is it
for service or salvation? Sometimes I see election for purpose verses
prooftexted to election for salvation.
I think it's all for God's purpose. It's just that salvation is a part of that purpose.
quote:
Somehow "God desires all men to be saved" and "I have chosen you" must be true.
He does desire all men to be saved but he also desires justice.
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Same with predestination and free will. We cannot believe one at the exclusion of another.
Compatibilsm.
quote:
This is why I believe a true seeker's theology must be constantly evolving.
What exactly do you mean by this?
quote:
I must also believe election is true because the Bible talks about it. I reconcile the
two by this: when God looks at a believer, he sees Jesus Christ, not us.
In this way I appreciate what Barth says about Jesus, the one elect man.
But how do you square that with the verses that clearly state that God choose? That speak of the elect saints? That he'll have mercy upon whom he'll have mercy? I'm going to be blunt and apologize in advance if I offend you, but I think you're sitting on the fence in the tensions because it's easier than making a choice. (no pun intended!)
quote:
Do we believe because we are elect, or are we elect because we believe?
We believe because we are elect. If the other way around, then we would have elected ourselves.
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How can we be free and responsible at the same time?
First, the natural man isn't free. Second, federalism.
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How can God determine everything, but I choose to sin?
It's part of the sanctification process. If we don't sin, then we don't grow.
quote:
There's times when I just figure I'll never understand it all in this life and go on.
Now that's a wise statement. If we're honest, then we'll understand that there will be many things that we won't really and truly understand. We can understand what the Bible clearly says, though, and how the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of what it says.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 6:43:31 AM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Third, think about this: "Free" will is a misnomer. If man really has a "free" will,
then that would mean that he's autonomous.
I'm sure SL is more than capable, but this caught my I, so allow me to butt in.
This is not true.
If I walk my dog on one of those retractible leashes, is he totally restrained?
Even a prisoner in a cell can read whatever book he wants or say what he wants
within the rules and regulations.
I can get in my car and drive to Alaska taking an infinite number of routes,
all to my own choosing.
And I can get up this morning and either decide to sin or not to sin.
God knows every choice I will make. He may lead me to a certain choice,
prevent me from making a certain choice, or allow me to make a certain choice.
I have no real way of knowing whether God directed or influenced my decisions,
except, of course, when I choose to sin, something God cannot make me do.
The only other alternative to this is, in fact, this puppet/puppetmaster relationship,
which is NOT biblical and COMPLETELY contradicts covenant relationship.
quote:
If he's autonomous, then there's no greater will than his own.
Why? See my above examples. God places limits on our will - that doesn't make it
bound and not free.
quote:
Nothing and no one can control it other than himself.
Depends on what you mean by "control".
Who says God cannot say we may do A, B, or C but not D?
Isn't that what he told Adam?
He restrains our evil and at the same time allows us to sin, but
this doesn't put God in control of our sin, does it.
quote:
If there's no greater will than his own, then he's God.
Why does man's free will have to be greater than God.
Is it your view of foreknowledge/foreordain that won't allow you to see it?
quote:
If we truly believe that God's sovereign, then we know assuredly that His will will
always overpower the human will if that's what God determines.
Nobobdy denies this.
quote:
Finally, I would spend some time considering compatibilism.
Compatibilism is a copout.
Isn't it just a compromise for determinists who find their philosophy
impunes the character of God?
Look, either God determines everything or he doesn't. You can't be a
determinist and a compatiblist at the same time.
The second you admit man has any will at all, the camel's nose is under the tent
because a will that is not free is meaningless.
quote:
we have a will but we don't have a "free" will. Our will is bound to and
controlled by our sinful nature from birth.
Can choose which sin to do, or does God determine it?
No, if we have a will, it must be free or nothing else makes sense and God
becomes guilty of that which he cannot do.
quote:
Compatibilism allows for man's will, but God's will always supersedes
human will if the two collide, so to speak.
So if I choose to do evil, why doesn't God stop me?
Isn't that a "collision of wills"?
Determinism is an ugly picture of a micromanipulating God and any
"response" of man to the draw of God is simply a............farce. Sorry.
This is the same "bondage of the will" theology that holds the
man responsible for the very sin he was foreordained to commit.
Nobody has ever explained how we can be responsible if we
are not 1)morally able and 2) free to choose our sin
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 7:08:27 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 403
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quote:
The Bible doesn't say.
The burden of proof is on you, not me.
Why is the burden of proof on KJB? The bible says that which is of the flesh is flesh and that which is of the Spirit is spirit. It seems to me that the burden of proof is on you to prove that something sprititual (faith) came from the flesh(unregenerate Abraham).
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 8:14:40 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Ephesians 2:8-10 says that faith is a gift.
It does not . What seems so clearly connected in the English is not so in the Greek . You are not reading the verse with the correct "tags" as would be used with the Greek . The verse read properly would be : For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that [salvation] is not of yourselves : it [salvation] is the gift of God :
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 8:23:34 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
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quote:
The Bible DOESN'T say faith comes from within-
For with the heart man believeth
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 8:27:09 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Earnestly contend means to struggle for .
Why does Jude advise his reader's to struggle for faith if its a gift ?
These two verses contradict the theology of faith as a gift ; and support that we wrestle and struggle for faith .
The verses you quoted do not support , nor even imply that faith is a gift . There is no clear evidence to support your position .
We all struggle with faith, hope, and love !
To strive, to struggle is the part of our walk.
We can misplace faith, but never lose it.
That is not Jude's point .
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 8:57:57 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
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KJB ,
quote:
Lets face it.......the free-will and/or Arminian POV all boils down to a main point.
Free-willers/Arminians are convinced that they are the cause of their own faith. Am I right on that point or not?
No you're not right . Faith comes from hearing the word Of God , the gospel . We don't cause it , its something we believe . The gospel tells us what to believe in (on) , on Whom to place our faith .
quote:
Calvinists are convinced that God caused their own faith. Am I right on that point or not?
I thought you believed God gave you your faith ? Not caused it .
quote:
I can thank God for my faith and I do because I am convinced my faith was caused by Him.
You really cant thank God for your faith because you are not even convinced it was a gift from God.
Where in Scripture do you read of Paul or any of the apostles thanking God for their faith ? They thank God for all things , but they never mention their faith as one of them . As a matter of fact , we never read of anyone thanking God for giving anyone faith .
quote:
If your faith was not a gift from it must be that you created or somehow caused your own faith all by yourself
For this cause , when I could no longer forbear , I sent to know your faith , lest by some means the tempter have tempted you , and our labor be in vain .
Seems Paul must have been unsure of the faith God supposedly gave (according to your theology) to the Thessalonians .
The message of Scripture is to believe (have faith) in Jesus Christ , form Matthew through Revelation .
Now , you need to show support from Scripture that God must give believers this faith . Where in Scripture is the prayer "And I pray that God will give you faith" ?
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 9:10:40 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
TheosCentric,
quote:
Ephesians 2:8-10 says that faith is a gift.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on that.
Here is Romans 6:23;
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I think the free-will/Arminian concept or thought pattern looks at that text and they go more along the line of the free gift of God is only an offer of eternal life. The problem is the text does not say that.
It is clear that the free gift is eternal life.......not an offer of it.
It would seem that it might be more free-will/Arminian to read sort of like this;
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is the choice of eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord if you choose it.
I think the Calvinist looks at the text and the Calvinist thought pattern is that the free gift is not an offer.
The Calvinist sees the free gift as exactly what it says.
The gift is eternal life as in a completed and finished promise that God has granted as a gift in total opposition to what was earned.
Take care,
KJB
If the Calvinist ever looked at eternal life as an offer their entire theology would crumble ; is it no wonder they may well be blind to that fact .
Free willers look at it through this Biblical concept :
But these are written , that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ , the Son of God ; and that believing ye might have life through his name .
For God so loved the world , that He gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life .
It is a conditional offer , a bona fide offer .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 9:15:58 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
umcbee,
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%202;&version=45;
KJB
It certainly appears that your link agree's totally with my interpretation of Eph 2:8 ; did you not read it ?
8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ([c]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 11:02:39 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
Acting like a pagan doesn't make one a pagan,
Bingo.
Precisly what i tried to prove- a saved person can deny God, worship pagan gods and goddesses and and still be saved while doing that.
Glad we finally agreed.
quote:
Odeliya - if you have a ticket to get into the movie, its useless only for the movie.
Salvation is not simply "Ticket, please" but "Welcome to the show!".
Amen, of course.
I presume you arent trying to suggest that i ,possibly dont know or dont argee with this?
Looks like you debating LS/FG with Graham Craker and our dear Manna in Salvation Folder now - they are more able and better versed people then I, so we can quit it here.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 11:22:22 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I don't think Solomon was a pagan. He certainly believed in the God of Israel. He started out committing sin by marrying so many women even though Scripture says kings are to have only one wife. How Solomon disobeyed! He married from nations God commanded not to. Then his sin progressed. God tells us how hard it is for a rich man to enter heaven. I think Solomon was a good example of this. He became obsessed with power and wealth.
No wonder God makes it clear to us that we are not to be unequally yoked. Solomon spent a lot of time with "bad" people. He let his many wives(what an understatement) turn his head to worship their gods also. It says in 1Kings 11:6 "And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD,..."
When we read 1Kings 11, I think what we see is chastisement. God raised up leaders to oppose and war with Solomon. And the biggest chastisement would be the dividing of the kingdom. Chastisement is to bring us to repent of sin and this is what Solomon eventually did. The more I read Ecc I see Solomon's deep repentance.
As for idolotry, we don't have to build altars of wooden gods to be guilty of it. Origen wrote "What each one honors before all else, what before all things he admires and loves, this for him is God."
Thank, K, lovely sermonette, no, i am not being sacrastic, you wildcats, i am serious . I actually needed some help right now, to emphasize that when we go thru chastisement for what seem to be no reason, is it God's will, to make us better....
I dont think I essentially disagree with you and rwe on the issues of LS/FG. As i said and i really should get off this horse, both, if not taken out of context, prove great truths. First- as you said, an importance of working out and living out our faith and the second- as you also said, that a pagan worshipper of pagan gods, womanizer, and cheater " who's heart turned away from God" can still remain a saved child of God.We can't outsin grace.
Yes, a true saved child of God will be brought to repentance eventually. However to say that unless he dies in unrepentent sin he is unsaved, is sheer catholicism, suggesting that some sins are OK, some sins are Mortal.. No, no, no.I have lovely true believeing RC friends, but i dont buy into this whole CC deal.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 11:31:38 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
No one on this thread has shown that their will is free not to sin.
Because that is not included in the definition of Free will Freewill doesnt mean we are free to not sin.
And this is why:
If we are free to not sin, that the salvation is owed to us, we honestly earned it, as a wage.If this is what FW was then of course it is unbiblical.
But FW says that we are sinners, and remain sinners, and cant be anything but sinners on our own.
Its not like we are able to not sin, we are able to see our miserable state and cry for help.That is what id worthy of debate, not arguing against the definition of FW that is not correct.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 11:42:28 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL:Odeliya
I actually needed some help right now, to emphasize that when we go thru chastisement for what seem to be no reason, is it God's will, to make us better....
Hebrews 12
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 12:12:06 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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thanks, theos, that was nice. Its just… it’s getting downright brutal now. I expect a shipment of strength soon. I send a request for additional helpings this morning.
Apologize for whining, sorry. I will overcome. Phillipians 4 : 13.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 12:16:19 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 403
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: online
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quote:
If the Calvinist ever looked at eternal life as an offer their entire theology would crumble ; is it no wonder they may well be blind to that fact .
Free willers look at it through this Biblical concept :
But these are written , that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ , the Son of God ; and that believing ye might have life through his name .
For God so loved the world , that He gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life .
It is a conditional offer , a bona fide offer .
If it is an offer only, I would agree with you. But the gospel is more than that. It is a summons to repent and live. A powerful call to life. If it is an offer only then the power is us but the power is in the word itself to quicken us.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 1:50:00 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1904
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
thanks, theos, that was nice. Its just… it’s getting downright brutal now. I expect a shipment of strength soon. I send a request for additional helpings this morning.
Apologize for whining, sorry. I will overcome. Phillipians 4 : 13.
I'll say a prayer for you. God Bless.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 1:51:54 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
If the Calvinist ever looked at eternal life as an offer their entire theology would crumble ; is it no wonder they may well be blind to that fact .
Free willers look at it through this Biblical concept :
But these are written , that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ , the Son of God ; and that believing ye might have life through his name .
For God so loved the world , that He gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life .
It is a conditional offer , a bona fide offer .
If it is an offer only, I would agree with you. But the gospel is more than that. It is a summons to repent and live. A powerful call to life. If it is an offer only then the power is us but the power is in the word itself to quicken us.
God quickens us , not the word , the Word washes us . But yes , it is an offer , and no , there is no power in us to save ourselves . The power in the gospel comes in the Holy Spirit with conviction and convincing .
You may call the gospel a summons if you desire . But the Scripture says that from the time of Jesus' temptation in the wilderness , Jesus began to preach Repent : for the kingdom of heaven is near . It is more like a command rather than a summons .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 2:48:29 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
If it is an offer only, I would agree with you. But the gospel is more than that.
It is a summons to repent and live. A powerful call to life. If it is an offer only
then the power is us but the power is in the word itself to quicken us.
Agree, TDD.
If we are made alive in Christ, it must be more than an offer, no?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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