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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 4:13:32 PM
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tdd1975
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quote:
You may call the gospel a summons if you desire . But the Scripture says that from the time of Jesus' temptation in the wilderness , Jesus began to preach Repent : for the kingdom of heaven is near . It is more like a command rather than a summons .
I agree. Command is probably a better word to use.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 5:03:08 PM
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SophiesLadder
Posts: 48
Joined: 9/29/2008
From: Atlanta, GA
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Just wanted everyone to know I'm not ignoring you, just having to work. Will respond to all soon.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 8:53:48 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
Acting like a pagan doesn't make one a pagan,
Bingo.
Precisly what i tried to prove- a saved person can deny God, worship pagan
gods and goddesses and and still be saved while doing that.
Glad we finally agreed.
Question is, ask them how they feel about their sin.
Therein lies your answer.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 9:35:06 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
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umcbee,
quote:
Now , you need to show support from Scripture that God must give believers this faith .
How many times do we need to do this?
How about I show you He does........again?
6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness,
Before we go on any further lets just both meditate on that a little while.
Isnt that text something!
He did not offer the light to shine out of darkness.
He was not bargaining with darkness and trying to draw it or lure it out with some motivational speech.
He ordered it with a command of His awesome power no different than when He ordered stars to shine......they just simply obeyed and brought forth light.
The light overcame the darkness because He ordered it to do so.
Lets continue;
hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
After seeing that text I would think a little more meditation is in order.
That is some awesome text.
Here are those together and I am going to add verse 5 to it;
5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Think about what the text is saying.
After reading that text can you tell me that you are comfortable in preaching about your will and what your will did?
After reading that text and meditating on it for a while.....are you honestly comfortable preaching to me about your will?
Think about it.
Here is some more of the text in that area;
7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
I can tell you of one really good reason which compels me to remain a Calvinist.
I am not comfortable in preaching about my "will" or "free-will" as if it was some powerful motive or force that brought me to Jesus Christ.
I cannot do it because I am simply not convinced.
I feel that if I was to attribute this miracle of conversion to my own will I would be preaching about myself and trying to rob God of the glory and praise due to Him in regard of a true miracle that He alone carried out and which I deserves no credit, glory, or praise.
Do you understand why I cannot preach human will....free-will or whatever we want to call it?
It is just not in me to do it.
I am not comfortable in doing so and I am so thankful to God for my salvation which includes and does not exclude the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.......which is a conversion from dark to Light.
When it comes to preaching about light shining out of darkness.......I dont preach myself.
I am much more comfortable preaching that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not me.
How about if I show you He saves unbelievers?
13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We thank GOD for brothers loved by the Lord because from the beginning GOD chose them to be saved.
From the beginning He chose them to be saved........and He saved them through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called them (brothers loved by the Lord) through the gospel.
I can certainly also say God chose to save my children through me.
The "throughs" never overide the determined will of God to save.
The above text can make a solid and finished point (not every point of the text) and could read like this properly and still remain true;
........we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved........
That is a true statement which implies that we are to thank God for ALL those that are saved.
Why would we thank Him and not them?
Because He chose to save them and He saved them through the means He used to do it.
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.
What reason would Paul thank God for all of them because their faith is being proclaimed? Isnt it more correct to thank them? Isnt it more correct that God should be thanking them for proclaiming their faith?
No sir.......you certainly have not convinced me that the human will is worth preaching about.
If I was going to preach something about me I would rather preach about my big toe or something because it has done far less harm and evil than my will has done. 
But nevertheless......carry on and tally ho!
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 10:49:20 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
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umcbee,
quote:
If the Calvinist ever looked at eternal life as an offer their entire theology would crumble ; is it no wonder they may well be blind to that fact .
Free willers look at it through this Biblical concept :
But these are written , that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ , the Son of God ; and that believing ye might have life through his name .
For God so loved the world , that He gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life .
It is a conditional offer , a bona fide offer .
But you are mixing up two things out of my post.
I am not saying there is no outward calling. I could see the outward calling as an offer so I really dont have any problem with that. I also dont have a problem with the idea that people would have to meet certain criteria if they wish to be saved.
My post spoke of the free gift which was not described as an offer.
The free gift is much more than just some offer.
The free gift is eternal life and nothing less than eternal life.
This is what I posted;
quote:
Here is Romans 6:23;
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I think the free-will/Arminian concept or thought pattern looks at that text and they go more along the line of the free gift of God is only an offer of eternal life. The problem is the text does not say that.
It is clear that the free gift is eternal life.......not an offer of it.
It would seem that it might be more free-will/Arminian to read sort of like this;
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is the choice of eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord if you choose it.
I think the Calvinist looks at the text and the Calvinist thought pattern is that the free gift is not an offer.
The Calvinist sees the free gift as exactly what it says.
The gift is eternal life as in a completed and finished promise that God has granted as a gift in total opposition to what was earned.
Do you see how it is in contrast?
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The free gift is eternal life and it does not add things like;
"only if you open the gift"
"if you do this or that"
"if you accept the gift as offered"
An Arminian text should read;
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is the offer of eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
See what I mean?
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 3:58:08 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What does that even mean? You know that God has a "secret" will.
His will concerning men becoming saved isn't a secret. True, not a secret but certainly not understood.
quote:
He has made his desire plain to me in 2Pet 3:9 His desire to what?...save every individual without exception? Give every individual a chance? We don’t see Scripture saying that. You know the difference between God's preceptive and decretive will.
2Pet 3:9 doesn't say that. It is speaking about God not ending this world until all He has chosen come to salvation. He is longsuffering to "us-ward" - those He intends to save.
quote:
and Acts 17:30; 26:20 Acts 17:30 says that God left men in their ignorance and sins. IOW, He didn't provide any prophets or specific knowledge about Himself. Now, the Gospel of repentance and faith in Jesus Christ is to go to all - both Jew and Gentile. These verses are simply telling us we must repent and have faith and no one denies that we must.
quote:
Note: I do not exclude election verses, I try to reconcile them with God's overt will. I don't see that as what you're trying to do. I see you taking the "election" verses and changing what they specifically say into something else. God tells us He chooses certain ones to be saved; but, you turn that around to say God "elects" those who believe. He never says that nor does it make any sense because then you simply have man electing himself.
quote:
quote:
Who are these righteous people, these God honoring people. God says there are none righteous - no not one.
Why do you think being created in God's image with a certain knowledge of him is righteousness? I didn't say anything about creation being "righteous". I said because God created man in His image man is responsible.
quote:
Where does it say it? I figured you already knew, Kman. Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. I assume you regard this baptism as water baptism? We know that water baptism cannot remit your sins. This verse is speaking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - that is the baptism which remits sins. And, of course, when you are baptized with the Holy Sprit you will receive His indwelling presence.
quote:
I don't believe repentance and believing are works.
Regardless, Scripture is crystal clear they are.
quote:
Sure, Abraham believed, and it was CREDITED to him as righteousness, but
does this make believing a righteous act? Yep, your faith - your credit.
quote:
quote:
The faith the Apostles showed is an evidence they were saved.
It's staggering that you can actually read those verses and those biblical
accounts and still maintain the Apostles were unsaved.
Can we be saved if we have not received the Holy Spirit?
When did the Apostle receive the Holy Spirit?
Thats all I'm asking. You think they couldn't have faith unless they
already received it, but the Bible says otherwise. There faith
preceded their receiving the Holy Spirit. No, you are not understanding what happened at Pentecost. It was not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as seen in regeneration.
Pentecost was the "official" start of the NT church. They were about to evangelize in earnest - about to declare the Word of God - about to prophesy. We see in Scripture that to be "filled with they Holy Spirit" means the person is about to prophesy, i.e., Elisabeth(Luke 1:41-42), Zacharias (Luke 1:67-68), etc.
quote:
quote:
Yep, without the Holy Spirit doing the miracle of regeneration in our
heart we will never ever have saving faith.
Why can't the opening of the heart or the quickening occur without
the person receiving the Holy Spirit, but be based on repentance?
True godly repentance is the work of God. We can only be quickened/made alive by the work of the Holy Spirit. How can something we do anything we do make us alive?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 4:06:15 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
God could never make and If/then statement to man.
God couldn't give a warning to a man or discipline a man if he had no free will. The conditional statements in Scripture usually denote no ability in man because they are spiritual commands that we have no power to fulfill. A command doesn't always imply ability. God commands us to do more than we're able to do, because He alone enables us to do what He commands.
We shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking that just because ability concerning earthly matters is possible that the same applies to the spiritual realm. Think of it like the laws of one country don't necessarily apply in another country.
God commands us to love our enemies. Still, the command alone doesn't make us able to love our neighbor. Nor, simply because we are given the command is it reasonable to think we've been given any power to do it. We should understand that when God gives these commands they are not statements of what we can do but what we should do.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 4:09:32 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
I feel that if I was to attribute this miracle of conversion to my own will I would be preaching about myself and trying to rob God of the glory and praise due to Him in regard of a true miracle that He alone carried out and which I deserves no credit, glory, or praise. This is exactly what God shows us in the account of the man who picked-up a few sticks on the Sabbath day in Numbers 15:32.
Ex 31:13-15 says if any work is done on the Sabbath that person is to be put to death. It also says the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel.
The spiritual substance or reality that this sign was pointing to is the fact that Jehovah is the one who sanctifies us when we become saved. This is a parallel truth found in Eph 2:8-10 among other places in the Bible.
The work of salvation is entirely the work of Christ. God is so jealous of our understanding this that He records the incident of a man picking up a few sticks on the Sabbath day with the penalty of death.
This would be like someone believing that Christ has done all the work is saving me, but I entered into the work of becoming saved because I accepted Christ or I was baptized in water or even because I had faith.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 4:13:23 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Thank, K, lovely sermonette, no, i am not being sacrastic, you wildcats, i am serious . I actually needed some help right now, to emphasize that when we go thru chastisement for what seem to be no reason, is it God's will, to make us better.... Odeliya?...sarcastic?....nah :)
I think when we monkey around with a sin God will chastise....a method He uses in our sanctification. It either brings the sin to our attention or makes us realize we don't actually "need" that sin. A chastisement can be very severe.
quote:
Yes, a true saved child of God will be brought to repentance eventually. However to say that unless he dies in unrepentent sin he is unsaved, is sheer catholicism, suggesting that some sins are OK, some sins are Mortal.. No, no, no.I have lovely true believeing RC friends, but i dont buy into this whole CC deal. I don't disagree, we will never be without sin on this earth. But, there is sin and there is a sinful lifestyle. If our lives don't change, we have no reason to consider ourselves saved.
If Solomon went to his death worshipping the pagan gods, this would be a rebellious sinful lifestyle. And we find nothing in Scripture leading us to believe this is possible with a true believer.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 7:27:18 AM
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nicole6598
Posts: 4100
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: Australia
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Hi, I don't know if this is the right place to ask or not...
My bible stugy group are reading Ephesians. We have just read the first 3 chapters talking about pre-destined etc etc. I don't want to cause an argument or anything but would like some scriptures that are for or against the position that God has chosen only some to be saved. so are there scriptures that back up that God has only chosen that some will be saved? Are there scriptures that others use to back up their point of view that God chooses ALL to be saved but in the end its our own decision whether we take that or not?
Thank you, if this is in the wrong place then just ignore it :)
_____________________________
Proud Aussie, Wife, Mother, Woman!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 7:45:08 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Acts 17:30 says that God left men in their ignorance and sins.
"All men everywhere" means something to me.
quote:
These verses are simply telling us we must repent and have faith
and no one denies that we must.
The "we" is all men everywhere.
quote:
This verse is speaking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - that is the
baptism which remits sins. And, of course, when you are baptized with the
Holy Sprit you will receive His indwelling presence.
You ignored my question, which was WHEN did they receive the Holy Spirit,
BEFORE or AFTER they repented and believed?
quote:
I don't believe repentance and believing are works.
Regardless, Scripture is crystal clear they are
Not to me.
quote:
Sure, Abraham believed, and it was CREDITED to him as righteousness, but
does this make believing a righteous act?
Yep, your faith - your credit.
Might you have an issue with Paul, then? Show me how Abraham's faith
was not his and show me where Abraham received his faith from God
and I will retreat.
quote:
Pentecost was the "official" start of the NT church. They were about to
evangelize in earnest - about to declare the Word of God - about to prophesy.
We see in Scripture that to be "filled with they Holy Spirit" means the person is
about to prophesy, i.e., Elisabeth(Luke 1:41-42), Zacharias (Luke 1:67-68), etc.
The question was when did the Apostles receive the Holy Spirit?
quote:
True godly repentance is the work of God. We can only be quickened/made
alive by the work of the Holy Spirit. How can something we do anything we do
make us alive?
You think repentance = regeneration?
I never said us repenting makes us the author of our regeneration!
It is a condition that must be met.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 7:47:35 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
God could never make and If/then statement to man.
God couldn't give a warning to a man or discipline a man if he had no free will. The conditional statements in Scripture usually denote no ability in man because they are spiritual commands that we have no power to fulfill. A command doesn't always imply ability. God commands us to do more than we're able to do, because He alone enables us to do what He commands.
We shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking that just because ability concerning earthly matters is possible that the same applies to the spiritual realm. Think of it like the laws of one country don't necessarily apply in another country.
God commands us to love our enemies. Still, the command alone doesn't make us able to love our neighbor. Nor, simply because we are given the command is it reasonable to think we've been given any power to do it. We should understand that when God gives these commands they are not statements of what we can do but what we should do.
Excellent points, Kman.
But I am talking about warnings, and conditional statements, not commands.
What would be the purpose of discipline if a saved man had no free will to disobey?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 8:03:56 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
Hi, I don't know if this is the right place to ask or not...
My bible stugy group are reading Ephesians. We have just read the first 3 chapters talking about pre-destined etc etc. I don't want to cause an argument or anything but would like some scriptures that are for or against the position that God has chosen only some to be saved. so are there scriptures that back up that God has only chosen that some will be saved? Are there scriptures that others use to back up their point of view that God chooses ALL to be saved but in the end its our own decision whether we take that or not?
Thank you, if this is in the wrong place then just ignore it :)
No.......... this is right place, dear!
I'm going to refer you to Dr. Bob Utley's website to get his view on election. Download the commentary and look in special topics.
Let me know if you have trouble finding it.
Another excellent resource is "Perspectives on Election 5 Views".
Good luck.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 8:12:01 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Thank, K, lovely sermonette, no, i am not being sacrastic, you wildcats, i am serious . I actually needed some help right now, to emphasize that when we go thru chastisement for what seem to be no reason, is it God's will, to make us better....
Crucible is b/c God loves you VERY VERY much !
Being conformed to the likeness of Christ !
ALL discipline seems painful at the time, BUT
later yields a harvest of righteousness !
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 8:32:39 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
quote:
"All men everywhere" means something to me.
Here is a way that the word "all" can be used;
Rev 13;
8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
9If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
The word is clarifed a few times to show that the word "all" is not intended to be used in an all inclusive means to pertain to every man woman and child on earth.
All who dwell on the earth will worship the beast.......well, except for all those whose names have been written in the book of life of the Lamb before the world was made.
All those people will not worship the beast.
As for destiny we can see more determination from God here.
If anyone has been destined for captivity......they will be captive.
These kinds of things sort of trump over and smash this so called human "free-will" dont you think?
Check this out;
12"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.
14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
15Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute.
They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.
Now that is what I call determination.
Off to work.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 9:06:15 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
umcbee,
quote:
Now , you need to show support from Scripture that God must give believers this faith .
How many times do we need to do this?
How about I show you He does........again?
6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness,
Absolutely nothing in the text nor context of 2 Cor 4:1-12 even remotely implies that God gives believers their faith , nothing , unless one presupposes it of course .
I tried before to explain the context of those verses to you.......so one more time .
1. Therefore , seeing we have this ministry , as we have received mercy , we faint not ;
Meditate on that a moment ; and answer this question : who is Paul talking about ?
He's talking about himself and probably Timothy , who is with him .
2. But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty , not walking in craftiness , nor handling the word of God deceitfully ; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God
Meditate on that a moment ; and answer this question : who is Paul talking about ?
The answer , ourselves , again its Paul and Timothy .
Verses 3 and 4 tells us who Paul and Timothy's gospel is hid from .
5. For we preach not ourselves , but Christ Jesus the Lord ;
Meditate on that a moment ; and answer this question : who does Paul say is doing the preaching ?
The answer is we , ourselves ; again its Paul and Timothy .
and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake .
Meditate on that a moment ; and answer this question : who are ourselves and who are your ? The ourselves is Paul and Timothy ; and the your are the Corinthains .
For God , who commanded the light to shine out of darkness , hath shined in our hearts
Meditate on that a moment ; and answer this question : who does our refer too ?
Paul and Timothy .
to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ .
Meditate on that a moment ; and answer this question : who is this knowledge given too ?
Paul and Timothy : and they are the ones passing on this knowledge to the Corinthians .
7. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels , that the excellency of the power may be of God , and not of us .
Meditate on that a moment ; and answer this question : who has this treasure of knowledge ?
Again its Paul and Timothy .
8. We are troubled on every side , yet not distressed , we are perplexed , but not in despair ;
9. Persecuted , but not forsaken ; cast down , but not destroyed :
10. Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus , that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body .
Meditate on that a moment ; and answer these questions : who is Paul saying are the troubled , perplexed , cast down , and Always bearing ?
Paul and Timothy .
11. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake , that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh .
Meditate on that a moment ; and answer this question : who is Paul talking about ?
The very next verse gives us the plain answer :
12. So then death worketh in us , but life in you .
Meditate on that a moment ; and answer this question : who is Paul saying that death worketh in ? The answer is us , Paul and Timothy . Who does Paul say that life worketh in ? The answer is you , the Corinthians .
quote:
After reading that text and meditating on it for a while.....are you honestly comfortable preaching to me about your will?
After reading the text in context and meditating on it for a while , are you comfortable still with your interpretation of it ?
Furthermore , I don't preach my will : I preach Jesus Christ Christ and Him crucified , and that as you (anyone) hears it , they are faced with a decission they must make . Either accept it or reject it .
quote:
I can tell you of one really good reason which compels me to remain a Calvinist.
I am not comfortable in preaching about my "will" or "free-will" as if it was some powerful motive or force that brought me to Jesus Christ.
And no believer of free will theology ever preaches about their will , that is a fallacy . It has no power , motive , or force , for bringing anyone to Christ . It is only the God given freedom to make a personal decission , for , or against Christ .
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I feel that if I was to attribute this miracle of conversion to my own will I would be preaching about myself and trying to rob God of the glory and praise due to Him in regard of a true miracle that He alone carried out and which I deserves no credit, glory, or praise.
And who from the free will side have you ever heard on this forum attribute their conversion to their own will ? I'll tell you ; no one here ever has . When one preaches that the hearers of the gospel must make a personal decission whether or not to accept or reject Christ , that in no way robs God of His glory in saving a person , nor robs Him of the praise due Him in the process of salvation .
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Do you understand why I cannot preach human will....free-will or whatever we want to call it?
I can understand why no believer would preach your understanding of free will , its too messed up .
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How about if I show you He saves unbelievers?
13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We thank GOD for brothers loved by the Lord because from the beginning GOD chose them to be saved.
Absolutely no Scripture supports God saving unbelievers .
The verse says that God chose them for salvation through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and through belief in the truth . It does not even imply that God saves unbelievers .
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The above text can make a solid and finished point (not every point of the text) and could read like this properly and still remain true;
........we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved........
That is a very poor paraphrase , and completely misses the context of how God chose them to be saved ; which was through sanctification of the Holy Spirit and belief in the truth .
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No sir.......you certainly have not convinced me that the human will is worth preaching about.
If I was going to preach something about me I would rather preach about my big toe or something because it has done far less harm and evil than my will has done.
But nevertheless......carry on and tally ho!
KJB
I've never tried to convince you that the human will is worth preaching about ; thats a misconception on your part . I really don't think I can convince you of anything , not even what I consider to be proper interpretation of the Scripture's above .
Oh well..........saddle um up !
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 9:14:18 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
umcbee,
quote:
If the Calvinist ever looked at eternal life as an offer their entire theology would crumble ; is it no wonder they may well be blind to that fact .
Free willers look at it through this Biblical concept :
But these are written , that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ , the Son of God ; and that believing ye might have life through his name .
For God so loved the world , that He gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life .
It is a conditional offer , a bona fide offer .
But you are mixing up two things out of my post.
I am not saying there is no outward calling. I could see the outward calling as an offer so I really dont have any problem with that. I also dont have a problem with the idea that people would have to meet certain criteria if they wish to be saved.
My post spoke of the free gift which was not described as an offer.
The free gift is much more than just some offer.
The free gift is eternal life and nothing less than eternal life.
This is what I posted;
quote:
Here is Romans 6:23;
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I think the free-will/Arminian concept or thought pattern looks at that text and they go more along the line of the free gift of God is only an offer of eternal life. The problem is the text does not say that.
It is clear that the free gift is eternal life.......not an offer of it.
It would seem that it might be more free-will/Arminian to read sort of like this;
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is the choice of eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord if you choose it.
I think the Calvinist looks at the text and the Calvinist thought pattern is that the free gift is not an offer.
The Calvinist sees the free gift as exactly what it says.
The gift is eternal life as in a completed and finished promise that God has granted as a gift in total opposition to what was earned.
Do you see how it is in contrast?
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The free gift is eternal life and it does not add things like;
"only if you open the gift"
"if you do this or that"
"if you accept the gift as offered"
An Arminian text should read;
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is the offer of eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
See what I mean?
Take care,
KJB
I see that you don't appear to see that the offer is only valid for those in Christ Jesus ; only those In Christ have the gift . And the only way to be in Christ , is to accept , by personal decission to place one's faith in Christ , then one is baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit , and havve eternal life .
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 10:19:50 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Question is, ask them how they feel about their sin.
Therein lies your answer.
I disagree but I see your point. If a person feels repentance, Holy Spirit confronts him thru various means, he is deeply disturbed and unhappy about sin - that is good indicator.But an unsaved person can feel that as well and attribute his uneasiness with sin to being child of Christ when in fact, as you and Manna wisely noted, not everyone who acts as Christian is one…
Exhibits A, B, C and D:
-I am very disturbed by still messing around with my girlfriend; even I know that homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God. I strive to be a good Christian! i just cant help it..(Tina,my friend)
-I better quit that whole “lets get Bathsheba in bed” business. I Love my God!. a bit later… Oops. I better stop contemplating how to kill her husband.Its not what a child of God would do.( David)
-Foreign girls…I shouldn’t be worshipping their gods.But that new hot one, from Morocco... I am getting to be like a Oreck vacuum cleaner or a politician - a dirt bag inside.. (Sol)
-I gotta quit cooking books! (as a head accountant in my corporation)Hard working people will lose their whole life savings! I am an elder and a good Christian! (there is one fellow in Chicago..)
Here we go- as politically correct examples as I can . 2 Jews,a gentile,a lesbian, a black person. All feel bad about their sin.Will they ever stop? we only know about the dave and sol.
ONLY God knows who is saved. we are not God, we cant judge.
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 10/15/2008 10:27:42 AM | | |
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